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Subject: "Steaktacular" legality update/discussion thread

As dictated per Foman, I am migrating the topic to Bungie.net community forum.

Hopefully we can now start off on a clean slate:


So I was reviewing the new "Bungie vs the World: Steaktakular content": http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&link =steaktakular

When I noticed something. Right there in the official rules, "No purchase necessary", yet the only option of entry required the purchase of Halo Reach, an Xbox 360, and Xbox Live to be eligible to enter, and not only that, the user has to encounter Bungie in matchmaking (a game of chance), and then beat them by 20 points.

I find this violates the Federal Trade Commissions bans on Games of Chance (aka Gambling).
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/08/sweepstakestestimony.htm

Anyone familiar with the "lottery law" knows any contest or sweepstakes requires you to answer three questions:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2243/why-do-contests -say-no-purchase-required

1. Is a prize being offered?
2. Is there chance involved in the selection of the winner (i.e., drawing a ticket)?
3. Does the consumer have to buy something to enter the contest? (This is called "consideration" by the FCC.)

The answer to all of these questions in regards to the Steaktacular is yes.

TL;DR. Main points:
1.) Prize being offered is a steak for residents in the United States, and a gift card for people outside the united states.
2.) You must encounter Bungie by chance, then defeat them by 20 points
3.) Entry requires purchase, no free alternate method of entry

Ugh, Bungie, stop breaking the law...-facepalm-
I'm also requesting an injuction perhaps to stop the event unless immediate changes are made to people that cannot access a paid copy of halo reach or xbox live gold.

Any tips?


[Edited on 06.24.2011 10:21 PM PDT]

  • 06.24.2011 10:19 PM PDT

"It is often repeated: 'Had we acted sooner... Had we acted more decisively...' Living in the past is a luxury we can no longer afford. We must learn from it, but we cannot live there. We cannot even plan for the now, for the present is ever fleeting.
The future is where we must live, the future is what we must plan for." -Forerunner soldier

When life gives you steak, don't question. Enjoy.

  • 06.24.2011 10:20 PM PDT
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"Just as the wave cannot exist for itself, but is ever a part of the heaving surface of the ocean, so must I never live my life for itself, but always in the experience which is going on around me.” - Albert Schweitzer

Yeah, I don't think the steaks would sit to well on the plane ride over to the UK.

Posted by: Jin Kisaragi
1.) Prize being offered is a steak for residents in the United States, and a gift card [/quote]

  • 06.24.2011 10:21 PM PDT

Do you realize that you can create a free 1 month on someone else's Xbox while owning the email that used to create it right?

  • 06.24.2011 10:21 PM PDT


Posted by: Luke35120
Do you realize that you can create a free 1 month on someone else's Xbox while owning the email that used to create it right?


An Xbox 360, Halo Reach, and Xbox Live Gold are all paid content. That's three tiers of payment required to be eligible to win. Even if one of the tiers (Xbox live gold account) has some shady levels of entry (i.e, a free trial), that still leaves two entirely different tiers of payment. It's a very shady line, but I see your valid argument and it's a point worth discussing as I have.

  • 06.24.2011 10:25 PM PDT

I have a tip for you, stop trying to make a big deal out of nothing.

  • 06.24.2011 10:26 PM PDT

-Seriously, who uses a signature?


Posted by: Jin Kisaragi

Posted by: Luke35120
Do you realize that you can create a free 1 month on someone else's Xbox while owning the email that used to create it right?


An Xbox 360, Halo Reach, and Xbox Live Gold are all paid content. That's three tiers of payment required to be eligible to win. Even if one of the tiers (Xbox live gold account) has some shady levels of entry (i.e, a free trial), that still leaves two entirely different tiers of payment. It's a very shady line, but I see your valid argument and it's a point worth discussing as I have.


no purchase necessary means you dont need to purchase anything extra just for the event. it doesnt have anything to do with the 360, game, subscription etc.

  • 06.24.2011 10:27 PM PDT

Hi I'm RT and I like to argue!


Posted by: Jin Kisaragi

Posted by: Luke35120
Do you realize that you can create a free 1 month on someone else's Xbox while owning the email that used to create it right?


An Xbox 360, Halo Reach, and Xbox Live Gold are all paid content. That's three tiers of payment required to be eligible to win. Even if one of the tiers (Xbox live gold account) has some shady levels of entry (i.e, a free trial), that still leaves two entirely different tiers of payment. It's a very shady line, but I see your valid argument and it's a point worth discussing as I have.
Don't radio contests require you to buy a radio? So, by your logic, they should be illegal too. But they aren't, so what makes you think that your application of the law here is correct? Have you researched cases where this law was applied?

  • 06.24.2011 10:28 PM PDT
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"Just as the wave cannot exist for itself, but is ever a part of the heaving surface of the ocean, so must I never live my life for itself, but always in the experience which is going on around me.” - Albert Schweitzer

Easy, easy.

Posted by: Vandelay16
I have a tip for you, stop trying to make a big deal out of nothing.

  • 06.24.2011 10:29 PM PDT

Whisper Game Studios - shhhh, it's a public secret.
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Sarsion.net
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[*Please note that anything in my posts is likely to be filled with sarcasm, and should be taken with a pinch of salt. I tend to help people, usually*]

This thread reminds me of this:

Posted by: Cave Johnson
Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!

  • 06.24.2011 10:29 PM PDT

Posted by: Great_Pretender
Case and point: don't worry about it. Girls start getting boobies pretty soon, and then you'll have plenty of other things to think about. Being an Inheritor is not a life goal.
-TGP-

Can you hold up in a court of law the fact that they weren't being facetious when posting that?

  • 06.24.2011 10:30 PM PDT

I blame myself, not Stosh.

It seems as though you've been waiting for this moment for a long time.

  • 06.24.2011 10:31 PM PDT

I underlined some points of interest.

Both are required, and it says so in the rules. "No purchase necessary" means you don't need to purchase anything else other than what is required to play the game. You don't need to purchase a contest entry ticket, or a voucher. You're taking it too literally.

[Edited on 06.24.2011 10:33 PM PDT]

  • 06.24.2011 10:32 PM PDT
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Destinypedia - The Wiki for Bungie's Destiny
Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Disclaimer for the unfamiliar: I am not a Bungie employee and do not speak officially for Bungie, Microsoft, or anybody else except myself.


Anyway, you're confusing consideration with eligibility.

A sweepstakes is not required to be open to all persons. Any sweepstakes may restrict its eligibility. And indeed, most do. For example, most sweepstakes in the U.S. restrict eligibility to U.S. residents, and/or by age, and/or by state, and/or by non-employees of the corporation conducting the giveaway.

Another pertinent factor that may be used is current subscribers to a certain service or owners of a certain product. This occurs all the time -- you can easily do a Google search and find thousands of sweepstakes restricted in this way.

This particular "sweepstakes" or "giveaway" is restricted to current owners of Halo: Reach and subscribers to XBox Live. No additional purchase is necessary to enter this sweepstakes, and any current subscriber/owner may enter completely free of charge.

This general idea can even be applied to sweepstakes that are purportedly open to "the general public." Using your misleading and overly restrictive interpretation, even those contests are not REALLY open to the general public. Much like RT noted, a radio "7th caller wins" or whatever contest requires the entrant to have a telephone to be eligible, but does not require the purchase of a telephone in order to win. Even a sweepstakes that lets you write in on a postcard to enter for free is eligibility-restricted only to those who have a stamp, or who are literate.

At any rate, you're conflating the two factors of "eligibility" and "consideration," which is what's leading to your confusion.

There is also a considerably persuasive argument that this contest is a skill game, not a game of chance. Though there is some element of chance involved, it could be equally argued that the "chance" is indirect and incident to winning the contest (i.e., chance will only get you so far), and the only true way to win is through skill. While chance may get you into the match with the Bungie employee, you must display skill to win the steak. This is no different than numerous other skill games. A coin flip determines who gets the first move in a chess tournament, but only the player's skill can result in a win.

If this is a game of skill, as you must know from all of the links you provided, then this contest is automatically not a "lottery" or "sweepstakes" regardless of whether purchase is necessary or not.

Either way, the rules of this contest do not make it illegal by any means.

This should solve your problem and answer your questions in their entirety.

[Edited on 06.24.2011 10:47 PM PDT]

  • 06.24.2011 10:34 PM PDT

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success.

OTK

I need your clothes, your boots and your mobility scooter


Posted by: Jin Kisaragi
I'm also requesting an injuction perhaps to stop the event unless immediate changes are made to people that cannot access a paid copy of halo reach or xbox live gold.
...

I really don't see why you would do that....


RighteousTyrant summed it up quite well.

  • 06.24.2011 10:39 PM PDT


Posted by: Mass Craziness
I underlined some points of interest.

Both are required, and it says so in the rules. "No purchase necessary" means you don't need to purchase anything else other than what is required to play the game. You don't need to purchase a contest entry ticket, or a voucher. You're taking it too literally.


Let me be clear on one point, okay?

I am not questioning what the rules say. I am capable of reading comprehension. The rules can be whatever they want, Bungie can say the rule: "The purchaser must commit a crime", but it doesn't make it right.

My main point is that, even if Bungie says the user must purchase something, they legally cannot force someone to purchase something. (Federal law > Bungie logic.) Bungie's "rules" cannot take priority over federal jurisdiction, Bungie isn't the company making the rules.

Microsoft has contests requiring Xbox Live Gold Subscriptions all the time, but they always, -always- include a free, alternate method of entry for Xbox Live Silver Members; some people just don't read the fine print.

@The guy bringing up the radio and radio contests.

You don't need to buy a radio to enter those contests. You just need to know their phone number ;D.

  • 06.24.2011 10:40 PM PDT

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success.

OTK

I need your clothes, your boots and your mobility scooter


Posted by: Jin Kisaragi
@The guy bringing up the radio and radio contests.

You don't need to buy a radio to enter those contests. You just need to know their phone number ;D.
Well then you would need to buy a phone or buy the use of one. His point still stands.

  • 06.24.2011 10:46 PM PDT

Posted by: Great_Pretender
Case and point: don't worry about it. Girls start getting boobies pretty soon, and then you'll have plenty of other things to think about. Being an Inheritor is not a life goal.
-TGP-

Posted by: Jin Kisaragi
@The guy bringing up the radio and radio contests.

You don't need to buy a radio to enter those contests. You just need to know their phone number ;D.

But you have to buy a phone...

  • 06.24.2011 10:51 PM PDT
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It was once said that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could reproduce the works of shakespeare... Now thanks to the internet we know that this is not true
==============================================
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
Disclaimer for the unfamiliar: I am not a Bungie employee and do not speak officially for Bungie, Microsoft, or anybody else except myself.


Anyway, you're confusing consideration with eligibility.

A sweepstakes is not required to be open to all persons. Any sweepstakes may restrict its eligibility. And indeed, most do. For example, most sweepstakes in the U.S. restrict eligibility to U.S. residents, and/or by age, and/or by state, and/or by non-employees of the corporation conducting the giveaway.

Another pertinent factor that may be used is current subscribers to a certain service or owners of a certain product. This occurs all the time -- you can easily do a Google search and find thousands of sweepstakes restricted in this way.

This particular "sweepstakes" or "giveaway" is restricted to current owners of Halo: Reach and subscribers to XBox Live. No additional purchase is necessary to enter this sweepstakes, and any current subscriber/owner may enter completely free of charge.

This general idea can even be applied to sweepstakes that are purportedly open to "the general public." Using your misleading and overly restrictive interpretation, even those contests are not REALLY open to the general public. Much like RT noted, a radio "7th caller wins" or whatever contest requires the entrant to have a telephone to be eligible, but does not require the purchase of a telephone in order to win. Even a sweepstakes that lets you write in on a postcard to enter for free is eligibility-restricted only to those who have a stamp, or who are literate.

At any rate, you're conflating the two factors of "eligibility" and "consideration," which is what's leading to your confusion.

There is also a considerably persuasive argument that this contest is a skill game, not a game of chance. Though there is some element of chance involved, it could be equally argued that the "chance" is indirect and incident to winning the contest (i.e., chance will only get you so far), and the only true way to win is through skill. While chance may get you into the match with the Bungie employee, you must display skill to win the steak. This is no different than numerous other skill games. A coin flip determines who gets the first move in a chess tournament, but only the player's skill can result in a win.

If this is a game of skill, as you must know from all of the links you provided, then this contest is automatically not a "lottery" or "sweepstakes" regardless of whether purchase is necessary or not.

Either way, the rules of this contest do not make it illegal by any means.

This should solve your problem and answer your questions in their entirety.


Coming from a lawyer I say OP got owned

  • 06.24.2011 11:27 PM PDT

You aren't impressing anybody with you supposed legal speak...

  • 06.25.2011 12:26 AM PDT

|| Deviant Art || The Downunder Squadron || Last.fm || Photobucket || Facebook ||

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ~ Einstien

OP, there are other pressing matters to attend to in the world. Though winning a steak is good and all...but in the grand scheme of the universe... It doesn't matter at all.

Volunteer at a soup kitchen and do some good my friend!

[Edited on 06.25.2011 12:30 AM PDT]

  • 06.25.2011 12:29 AM PDT
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The fact you want to sue Bungie for having a fun contest where people get to play with the developers and win meat, coupled with the fact that you're wrong, is sickening. Go do something productive with your time.

-TGP-

  • 06.25.2011 12:37 AM PDT

I know you are but what am I?


Posted by: Jin Kisaragi
My main point is that, even if Bungie says the user must purchase something, they legally cannot force someone to purchase something. (Federal law > Bungie logic.) Bungie's "rules" cannot take priority over federal jurisdiction, Bungie isn't the company making the rules.

They're not forcing anyone to buy anything. Who says you have to enter the contest?

  • 06.25.2011 12:49 AM PDT

XBL: l Sonic l
PSN: Sonic_343

Why do people have to mess things up that are supposed to be fun? People like this that completely ruin everyone else's fun.

[Edited on 06.25.2011 12:54 AM PDT]

  • 06.25.2011 12:50 AM PDT

Dividing by zero since 1993.

Twitter | Whisper | Website

This is this guys expression right now.

  • 06.25.2011 12:51 AM PDT

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