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Subject: Gravemind is NOT the Timeless One or vice versa

Ah yes that's where our disagreement comes in. I'm quoting the Encyclepedia which states exactly what I said. So if the Beasteruim states the other I don't know which one is correct

  • 06.26.2011 7:39 AM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

This was the Bestiarum that came with Halo 3 (the Halopedia version is correct - already cross referenced it). Going by this one, the Flood doesn't seem to have the capacity/willingness to create more than one Gravemind, and that Gravemind is considered a Tier 2 species - certainly not a trans-sentient one.

There is, in keeping up with the tradition of rewriting everything, a second Bestiarum located on the 343 website. Supposedly this is the "updated" Bestiarum. From this one it seems that the Gravemind is not only trans-sentient, but that there can also be multiple Graveminds. (As of right now, the site text is cut off for me. You should be able to scroll down to see more info on the species but the scroll bar isn't there -_-).

My personal opinion is that information from the original Bestiarum makes more sense. In regards to the "updated" Bestiarum; there is no point in having a centralized mind (the benefit of which is the ease of how orders and commands are transmitted and carried out) if there are tens or hundreds of different Graveminds all relaying different information. If, for some reason, they all were thinking the exact same thing and relaying the same information why exactly would you need more than one of these things? These becomes an even more glaring inconsistency if you consider the Gravemind(s) to be trans-sentient (which is the case in this scenario). A trans-sentient being would most likely be able to control the Flood effortlessly - why would there need to be more than one (it would just be wasting biomass that could be used to create more pure forms or combat forms).

Additionally, I would be upset if the Captive was the Gravemind (in the sense that an autonomous Precursor was in control of the Flood). While it would be fine for the Flood to absorb the Captive (and thus having his knowledge be a part of the whole) having him "control" the Flood as the Gravemind makes absolutely no sense given what the Flood is. The Flood is supposed to be a collective; the many acting as one. It isn't supposed to be the one in control of the many as if the Flood is just some vehicle of war that a person with the right information could hop into and assume control over.

  • 06.26.2011 10:28 AM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

I have a theory:
The flood used the domain to always be.

  • 06.26.2011 10:32 AM PDT

So, there is a theory that the Gravemind during the Flood-Forerunner war is the last remaining Precursor, supported by evidence in the Forerunner novels and the terminals in Halo 3. That one sounds pretty likely to me. But that Gravemind had to have been destroyed when the Forerunners activated the Array. Some Flood survived, but no Graveminds survived, right? It's possible, though, that consciousness persists for a Gravemind beyond its physical body- meaning as long as there are Flood to command, the consciousness of a Gravemind persists. That way the Gravemind of Halo 2 wouldn't really be exaggerating when he calls himself the "timeless chorus".

  • 06.26.2011 11:24 AM PDT

"Wake me...when you need me."

Everyone who pays attention to Halo lore knows that Gravemind isn't an entity as much as it is a measurement. Once a certain amount of Flood reach a critical mass, it becomes unilaterally self aware as a collective.

  • 06.26.2011 11:53 AM PDT


Posted by: dibbs089
This was the Bestiarum that came with Halo 3 (the Halopedia version is correct - already cross referenced it). Going by this one, the Flood doesn't seem to have the capacity/willingness to create more than one Gravemind, and that Gravemind is considered a Tier 2 species - certainly not a trans-sentient one.

There is, in keeping up with the tradition of rewriting everything, a second Bestiarum located on the 343 website. Supposedly this is the "updated" Bestiarum. From this one it seems that the Gravemind is not only trans-sentient, but that there can also be multiple Graveminds. (As of right now, the site text is cut off for me. You should be able to scroll down to see more info on the species but the scroll bar isn't there -_-).

My personal opinion is that information from the original Bestiarum makes more sense. In regards to the "updated" Bestiarum; there is no point in having a centralized mind (the benefit of which is the ease of how orders and commands are transmitted and carried out) if there are tens or hundreds of different Graveminds all relaying different information. If, for some reason, they all were thinking the exact same thing and relaying the same information why exactly would you need more than one of these things? These becomes an even more glaring inconsistency if you consider the Gravemind(s) to be trans-sentient (which is the case in this scenario). A trans-sentient being would most likely be able to control the Flood effortlessly - why would there need to be more than one (it would just be wasting biomass that could be used to create more pure forms or combat forms).

Additionally, I would be upset if the Captive was the Gravemind (in the sense that an autonomous Precursor was in control of the Flood). While it would be fine for the Flood to absorb the Captive (and thus having his knowledge be a part of the whole) having him "control" the Flood as the Gravemind makes absolutely no sense given what the Flood is. The Flood is supposed to be a collective; the many acting as one. It isn't supposed to be the one in control of the many as if the Flood is just some vehicle of war that a person with the right information could hop into and assume control over.


The Besterium suggests multiple Graveminds to be a theory saying something like "one [or more[?]]transsentient beings."

The original Besterium said that first, not the one on 343's website, which, assuming my own Besterium copy is in fact real, is the exact same transcript.

And its implied that the Prisoner created the Flood based on what he said ("this is our answer") so it isn't too impossible to believe he's the Gravemind if he created it. He'd still be technically apart of the collective.

Edit: And Tier 0 is more of an evolutionary messurement, not a technological one. The Besterium says he asopted a tech tier of 2 from the Covies. It doesn't even mention the Forerunners, which would have been an adopted tier 1. So it did ignore certain things.

[Edited on 06.26.2011 1:03 PM PDT]

  • 06.26.2011 1:01 PM PDT
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Rawr Im a dino!

I agree a little. I mean weren't the Flood in Halo CE creting another Gravemind on the Covenant ship but when you find it and kill it it's only a Proto-gravemind. Which must mean that the flood can have multiple Graveminds at once otherwise they wouldn't begin collecting Biomass while the Gravemind of 05 exists.

  • 06.26.2011 1:07 PM PDT


Posted by: billy991
So, there is a theory that the Gravemind during the Flood-Forerunner war is the last remaining Precursor, supported by evidence in the Forerunner novels and the terminals in Halo 3. That one sounds pretty likely to me. But that Gravemind had to have been destroyed when the Forerunners activated the Array. Some Flood survived, but no Graveminds survived, right? It's possible, though, that consciousness persists for a Gravemind beyond its physical body- meaning as long as there are Flood to command, the consciousness of a Gravemind persists. That way the Gravemind of Halo 2 wouldn't really be exaggerating when he calls himself the "timeless chorus".


Not necessarily, I seem to recall someone (I think it was Grey, if I'm wrong feel free to correct me Grey) stating that the Gravemind of Halo 2 had been imprisoned in some sort of Slipspace bubble, so he wouldn't have been able to be destroyed by Halo's firing. And even then, there were still Flood on the Halos themselves, at least Alpha Halo anyway, so I'm not so sure that the firing of the Halo Array really take out the Flood, it might disrupt or knock loose whatever "structures" and forms the Flood have, but it definitely can't destroy the Flood as a whole.

I think you're right about his mind though. That will always live on, even if the Flood are extinguished I think

  • 06.26.2011 2:27 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
The Besterium suggests multiple Graveminds to be a theory saying something like "one [or more[?]]transsentient beings."

The original Besterium said that first, not the one on 343's website, which, assuming my own Besterium copy is in fact real, is the exact same transcript.

And its implied that the Prisoner created the Flood based on what he said ("this is our answer") so it isn't too impossible to believe he's the Gravemind if he created it. He'd still be technically apart of the collective.

Edit: And Tier 0 is more of an evolutionary messurement, not a technological one. The Besterium says he asopted a tech tier of 2 from the Covies. It doesn't even mention the Forerunners, which would have been an adopted tier 1. So it did ignore certain things.
I don't have my copy in front of me so I will have to take your word for it, although I don't remember there ever being hints of more than one Gravemind until I saw the updated Bestiarum on 343's site (perhaps I have an older copy? - I did get all these games the day they came out).

I have to disagree with And its implied that the Prisoner created the Flood based on what he said ("this is our answer")so it isn't too impossible to believe he's the Gravemind if he created it. He'd still be technically apart of the collectiveIf he was able to exercise control over the Flood it would be a puppet to puppet master relationship. The Gravemind has always seemed to be a sum of the entities it absorbed; not a single entity privy to the knowledge of every life it absorbs.

Edit:Posted by: OrderedComa
Not necessarily, I seem to recall someone (I think it was Grey, if I'm wrong feel free to correct me Grey) stating that the Gravemind of Halo 2 had been imprisoned in some sort of Slipspace bubble, so he wouldn't have been able to be destroyed by Halo's firing. And even then, there were still Flood on the Halos themselves, at least Alpha Halo anyway, so I'm not so sure that the firing of the Halo Array really take out the Flood, it might disrupt or knock loose whatever "structures" and forms the Flood have, but it definitely can't destroy the Flood as a whole.

I think you're right about his mind though. That will always live on, even if the Flood are extinguished I think
I've never heard "Gravemind in a slipspace bubble" mentioned before. Is there a source for that?

In regards to the Halos, the frequency targets neural synapses. We don't know the exact details, but it would either literally melt your brain, or it would damage the neurological structure to such an extent that no impulses would be able to travel along the nerves (heart couldn't beat, muscles couldn't contract, lungs couldn't inhale/exhale). While this wouldn't kill the Flood because the transformation the hosts undergo means they aren't actually dependent on their organs to survive, all of the combat forms and carrier forms would essentially be taken out of the equation. The Flood survived because neither the pure forms nor the infection forms could be destroyed by the array. The assumption was that they would inevitably starve to death - that obviously didn't happen.

[Edited on 06.26.2011 3:10 PM PDT]

  • 06.26.2011 3:02 PM PDT

well its possible for there to be 2 graveminds at once but no one knows what would happen. also how did the gravemind get from delta halo to the ark

  • 06.26.2011 3:23 PM PDT

yas334229812

A gravemind is just a central processing system of the flood. so it dosnt matter if you killed one gravemind. if another is made it shall gain the knowledge of what is remaining of the previous through all living floods and gather the last of its peices. Also there is a secondary possiblity that the gravemind kept making back up memory which are smaller gravemind. some to become the gravemind once it dies or the others to control other parts of galaxies. like a reflex. if the enemy attacked and gravemind is busy on focusing somewhere else it can take measures necessary to protect the flood. one thing that must be known is that these additional graveminds aren't the main mind of the flood just little backup.

  • 06.26.2011 3:37 PM PDT

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