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This topic has moved here: Subject: I Declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. If you don't agree... Why?
  • Subject: I Declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. If you don't agree... Why?
Subject: I Declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. If you don't agree... Why?
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Posted by: HipiO7
The Fall of Reach in the novel was stupid. Reach fell in two hours.

Although I dont agree with everything in Halo Reach, I do like it better the way Reach fell. In a whole month instead of two hours.


Technically, space battle was over for Reach in two hours. Ground skirmishes only lasted a week to two. Besides, Covenant fleet had enough ships to overwhelm Reach defenses, despite losing over 2/3rd of fleet to defenses, was still enough to overrun Reach at ease.

And they're waging massive genocide against Humans, and they are truly merciless, will not stop at whim. They'll continue no matter what happens, as long humans are exterminated. So, tFoR version makes more sense than this Reach.

[Edited on 06.26.2011 1:51 PM PDT]

  • 06.26.2011 1:49 PM PDT

I recall Bungie saying that Reach DID fit with the canon of the books, it's just a matter of puzzling it together.

  • 06.26.2011 1:50 PM PDT

Do you have a source of where they said that?

  • 06.26.2011 1:51 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: raganok99
Posted by: HipiO7
The Fall of Reach in the novel was stupid. Reach fell in two hours.

Although I dont agree with everything in Halo Reach, I do like it better the way Reach fell. In a whole month instead of two hours.


Technically, space battle was over for Reach in two hours. Ground skirmishes only lasted a week to two. Besides, Covenant fleet had enough ships to overwhelm Reach defenses, despite losing over 2/3rd of fleet to defenses, was still enough to overrun Reach at ease.

And they're waging massive genocide against Humans, and they are truly merciless, will not stop at whim. They'll continue no matter what happens, as long humans are exterminated. So, tFoR version makes more sense than this Reach.


A couple of Spartan's fighting on the ground on Mount Menachite cant be considered ground skirmishes...

  • 06.26.2011 1:56 PM PDT

the space battle in LNoS was a very, Very small battle. It was the whole point of UPPERCUT to defend anchor 9 while it repaired a frigate to give you a slipspace drive and to hold off the main defenses on the Corvette (all the while the comms were jammed) so that you and your team could board it, take out some of the defenses and allow additional forces to board, and eventually set it on a refueling run to destroy the supercarrier.

When the Supercarrier was revealed over Reach it was in sub-orbit AKA too close to Reach's atmosphere to be shot down by a SMAC round (which fires at 0.4c or 40 percent the speed of light not 0.04c which is 4 percent the speed of light.

not only that but the force you fight up until LNoS is an advanced covie strike team NOT the actual invading force that still occurs just about the exact same way it does in the book.

that only leaves the PoA being on the ground which can be easily explained with the use of some sort of specialized docking equipment.

  • 06.26.2011 1:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: JesseJH
I understand the vastness of space... I figured at the beginning of Long Night of Solace when all the banshees and seraphs were flying around and there were wraiths and many covenant soldiers, there was more than just ONE Covenant corvette up in the heavens. You figured a ship that small would have some escorts. When I launched out of the atmosphere in my Sabre, I was kind of disappointed because I expected a big UNSC-Covenant ship-to-ship battle up there. By big, I mean at least a 2v2 kind of thing.
So if you understand the scale now, you understand why you can't see the battles raging in the distance, right? You also understand that what you saw in the skies represents only a fraction of the entire planetary attack force right? If yes, than good. If not, please elaborate.

Anyways, I don't completely disagree with you. Sure, the UNSC was trying to capture a Covenant vessel as quickly as possible so as to not alert the supercarrier, but one escort to the corvette would've been both logical and more exciting.

To add, I agree with you over the time scale. While a longer, drawn out battle is more epic, a few hours makes a lot more sense.

[Edited on 06.26.2011 1:57 PM PDT]

  • 06.26.2011 1:56 PM PDT

Yes, I understand why it would be difficult to see space skirmishes from orbit unless you were close.

But the fact that that Corvette wasn't even escorted by at least another corvette or a CCS battlecruiser was very disappointing.

  • 06.26.2011 1:59 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.


Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: raganok99
Posted by: HipiO7
The Fall of Reach in the novel was stupid. Reach fell in two hours.

Although I dont agree with everything in Halo Reach, I do like it better the way Reach fell. In a whole month instead of two hours.


Technically, space battle was over for Reach in two hours. Ground skirmishes only lasted a week to two. Besides, Covenant fleet had enough ships to overwhelm Reach defenses, despite losing over 2/3rd of fleet to defenses, was still enough to overrun Reach at ease.

And they're waging massive genocide against Humans, and they are truly merciless, will not stop at whim. They'll continue no matter what happens, as long humans are exterminated. So, tFoR version makes more sense than this Reach.


A couple of Spartan's fighting on the ground on Mount Menachite cant be considered ground skirmishes...

What would make you suggest such a assumption?

It's a bit narrow to consider that raganok99 or the Novel considered that ground skirmishes were so.

It seems to me you're looking for an argument. Which at the very basis, you are indeed at fault.

[Edited on 06.26.2011 2:00 PM PDT]

  • 06.26.2011 1:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: JesseJH
Yes, I understand why it would be difficult to see space skirmishes from orbit unless you were close.

But the fact that that Corvette wasn't even escorted by at least another corvette or a CCS battlecruiser was very disappointing.
So we're agreed. What other arguments did you have? That's not a sarcastic question, I genuinely want to continue this debate.

[Edited on 06.26.2011 2:00 PM PDT]

  • 06.26.2011 2:00 PM PDT

think a lot of people here underestimate a lot of things being said, underestimate scale and I for one understand where your coming from with that statement.

  • 06.26.2011 2:01 PM PDT


Posted by: JFMK2

Posted by: JesseJH
Yes, I understand why it would be difficult to see space skirmishes from orbit unless you were close.

But the fact that that Corvette wasn't even escorted by at least another corvette or a CCS battlecruiser was very disappointing.
So we're agreed. What other arguments did you have? That's not a sarcastic question, I genuinely want to continue this debate.


The Supercarrier. It blows my mind how something that size, although cloaked by the spire, does not give off a huge thermal signature. Not only that but when it got to Reach, it would have left a HUGE slipspace signature.

  • 06.26.2011 2:02 PM PDT
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias


Posted by: immadchill
the space battle in LNoS was a very, Very small battle. It was the whole point of UPPERCUT to defend anchor 9 while it repaired a frigate to give you a slipspace drive and to hold off the main defenses on the Corvette (all the while the comms were jammed) so that you and your team could board it, take out some of the defenses and allow additional forces to board, and eventually set it on a refueling run to destroy the supercarrier.

When the Supercarrier was revealed over Reach it was in sub-orbit AKA too close to Reach's atmosphere to be shot down by a SMAC round (which fires at 0.4c or 40 percent the speed of light not 0.04c which is 4 percent the speed of light.

not only that but the force you fight up until LNoS is an advanced covie strike team NOT the actual invading force that still occurs just about the exact same way it does in the book.

that only leaves the PoA being on the ground which can be easily explained with the use of some sort of specialized docking equipment.


I see.

But, on PoA being ground doesn't make any sense, no matter what how it is specialized docking equipment. Because it would take insane amounts of energy to actually propel massive mass of ship while gravity is pressing this beast down. I do not think that that small thrusters located under the PoA is sufficient enough to release enough energy to force this ship to lift off the ground, and Reach is 1.08G, it surely would stay PoA down for good.

And, I think that PoA was constructed in the space shipyard, not in ground ship yard (for disseminating old ships).

  • 06.26.2011 2:05 PM PDT


Posted by: JesseJH

Posted by: JFMK2

Posted by: JesseJH
Yes, I understand why it would be difficult to see space skirmishes from orbit unless you were close.

But the fact that that Corvette wasn't even escorted by at least another corvette or a CCS battlecruiser was very
disappointing.
So we're agreed. What other arguments did you have? That's not a sarcastic question, I genuinely want to continue this debate.


The Supercarrier. It blows my mind how something that size, although cloaked by the spire, does not give off a huge thermal signature. Not only that but when it got to Reach, it would have left a HUGE slipspace signature.



thats what the stealth pylons were for (the ones you saw in Nightfall) they jammed the sensors and emit radiation to hide the spire and itself from sattelites or anything else trying that was trying to find out what was going on

  • 06.26.2011 2:05 PM PDT

Not only that, but the PoA being on the ground conflicts with events in space such as purging the NAV database on the Circumference. PoA had a rolewhich could not be fulfilled on the ground

  • 06.26.2011 2:09 PM PDT

for me its not the 'thermal signature' that people talk about that would give its location away. still don't understand why we all think a space-craft would have an 'enormous' thermal signature, the question of how it go there is what beggars belief, since an in-atmosphere jump would give away its location without a shadow of a doubt.

another thing I think the sheer scale and mass of the super-carrier would give its location away regardless of whether it is 'cloaked' or not, not to mention the amount of energy required to cloak something more than fifteen miles long! in orbit of the Earth right now there is a satellite called G.O.C.E which monitors gravitational field strength of the planet. rather sure G.O.C.E could detect a cloaked super-carrier hovering above our planet, fast forward five hundred years and I would assume more sophisticated gravitational mapping had been developed, the ships have a lot of mass, which affects local gravitational field strength making it almost impossible to hide!

can I ask what gives one the impression that a ship would emit huge amounts of thermal energy? keep in mind that these things need substantial radiation shielding and such to protect crews against stellar radiation and the likes. don't think a 'large' thermal signature would be present just small amount against more or less absolute zero.

  • 06.26.2011 2:10 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: raganok99
Posted by: HipiO7
The Fall of Reach in the novel was stupid. Reach fell in two hours.

Although I dont agree with everything in Halo Reach, I do like it better the way Reach fell. In a whole month instead of two hours.


Technically, space battle was over for Reach in two hours. Ground skirmishes only lasted a week to two. Besides, Covenant fleet had enough ships to overwhelm Reach defenses, despite losing over 2/3rd of fleet to defenses, was still enough to overrun Reach at ease.

And they're waging massive genocide against Humans, and they are truly merciless, will not stop at whim. They'll continue no matter what happens, as long humans are exterminated. So, tFoR version makes more sense than this Reach.


A couple of Spartan's fighting on the ground on Mount Menachite cant be considered ground skirmishes...

What would make you suggest such a assumption?

It's a bit narrow to consider that raganok99 or the Novel considered that ground skirmishes were so.

It seems to me you're looking for an argument. Which at the very basis, you are indeed at fault.


Indeed. I missunderstood the post.

  • 06.26.2011 2:10 PM PDT


Posted by: raganok99

Posted by: immadchill
the space battle in LNoS was a very, Very small battle. It was the whole point of UPPERCUT to defend anchor 9 while it repaired a frigate to give you a slipspace drive and to hold off the main defenses on the Corvette (all the while the comms were jammed) so that you and your team could board it, take out some of the defenses and allow additional forces to board, and eventually set it on a refueling run to destroy the supercarrier.

When the Supercarrier was revealed over Reach it was in sub-orbit AKA too close to Reach's atmosphere to be shot down by a SMAC round (which fires at 0.4c or 40 percent the speed of light not 0.04c which is 4 percent the speed of light.

not only that but the force you fight up until LNoS is an advanced covie strike team NOT the actual invading force that still occurs just about the exact same way it does in the book.

that only leaves the PoA being on the ground which can be easily explained with the use of some sort of specialized docking equipment.


I see.

But, on PoA being ground doesn't make any sense, no matter what how it is specialized docking equipment. Because it would take insane amounts of energy to actually propel massive mass of ship while gravity is pressing this beast down. I do not think that that small thrusters located under the PoA is sufficient enough to release enough energy to force this ship to lift off the ground, and Reach is 1.08G, it surely would stay PoA down for good.

And, I think that PoA was constructed in the space shipyard, not in ground ship yard (for disseminating old ships).


I agree, it definately wouldn't make any sense for it to be on the ground JUST to pick up Cortana (I honestly think they did it to show off the improved graphics on some of the things we will see in CEA) but it could still be EASILY explained by Bungie or 343

  • 06.26.2011 2:11 PM PDT


Posted by: immadchill

Posted by: JesseJH

Posted by: JFMK2

Posted by: JesseJH
Yes, I understand why it would be difficult to see space skirmishes from orbit unless you were close.

But the fact that that Corvette wasn't even escorted by at least another corvette or a CCS battlecruiser was very
disappointing.
So we're agreed. What other arguments did you have? That's not a sarcastic question, I genuinely want to continue this debate.


The Supercarrier. It blows my mind how something that size, although cloaked by the spire, does not give off a huge thermal signature. Not only that but when it got to Reach, it would have left a HUGE slipspace signature.



thats what the stealth pylons were for (the ones you saw in Nightfall) they jammed the sensors and emit radiation to hide the spire and itself from sattelites or anything else trying that was trying to find out what was going on


Even if these pylons cloaked even radiation, how did these ships get to Reach without being detected by long-range scanners? Slipspace signatures would have been detected. Especially by the Supercarrier.

During the battle of Earth, we detected Slipspace signatures all the way near Io before they got to Earth.

A supercarrier is a very huge target.

  • 06.26.2011 2:11 PM PDT


Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235
for me its not the 'thermal signature' that people talk about that would give its location away. still don't understand why we all think a space-craft would have an 'enormous' thermal signature, the question of how it go there is what beggars belief, since an in-atmosphere jump would give away its location without a shadow of a doubt.

another thing I think the sheer scale and mass of the super-carrier would give its location away regardless of whether it is 'cloaked' or not, not to mention the amount of energy required to cloak something more than fifteen miles long! in orbit of the Earth right now there is a satellite called G.O.C.E which monitors gravitational field strength of the planet. rather sure G.O.C.E could detect a cloaked super-carrier hovering above our planet, fast forward five hundred years and I would assume more sophisticated gravitational mapping had been developed, the ships have a lot of mass, which affects local gravitational field strength making it almost impossible to hide!

can I ask what gives one the impression that a ship would emit huge amounts of thermal energy? keep in mind that these things need substantial radiation shielding and such to protect crews against stellar radiation and the likes. don't think a 'large' thermal signature would be present just small amount against more or less absolute zero.


The heat given off by the supercarriers massive engines for one.

  • 06.26.2011 2:13 PM PDT


Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235
for me its not the 'thermal signature' that people talk about that would give its location away. still don't understand why we all think a space-craft would have an 'enormous' thermal signature, the question of how it go there is what beggars belief, since an in-atmosphere jump would give away its location without a shadow of a doubt.

another thing I think the sheer scale and mass of the super-carrier would give its location away regardless of whether it
is 'cloaked' or not, not to mention the amount of energy required to cloak something more than fifteen miles long! in orbit of the Earth right now there is a satellite called G.O.C.E which monitors gravitational field strength of the planet. rather sure G.O.C.E could detect a cloaked super-carrier hovering above our planet, fast forward five hundred years and I would assume more sophisticated gravitational mapping had been developed, the ships have a lot of mass, which affects local gravitational field strength making it almost impossible to hide!

can I ask what gives one the impression that a ship would emit huge amounts of thermal energy? keep in mind that these things need substantial radiation shielding and such to protect crews against stellar radiation and the likes. don't think a 'large' thermal signature would be present just small amount against more or less absolute zero.


All of which were clogged up by the stealth pylons

  • 06.26.2011 2:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: immadchill

Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235
for me its not the 'thermal signature' that people talk about that would give its location away. still don't understand why we all think a space-craft would have an 'enormous' thermal signature, the question of how it go there is what beggars belief, since an in-atmosphere jump would give away its location without a shadow of a doubt.

another thing I think the sheer scale and mass of the super-carrier would give its location away regardless of whether it
is 'cloaked' or not, not to mention the amount of energy required to cloak something more than fifteen miles long! in orbit of the Earth right now there is a satellite called G.O.C.E which monitors gravitational field strength of the planet. rather sure G.O.C.E could detect a cloaked super-carrier hovering above our planet, fast forward five hundred years and I would assume more sophisticated gravitational mapping had been developed, the ships have a lot of mass, which affects local gravitational field strength making it almost impossible to hide!

can I ask what gives one the impression that a ship would emit huge amounts of thermal energy? keep in mind that these things need substantial radiation shielding and such to protect crews against stellar radiation and the likes. don't think a 'large' thermal signature would be present just small amount against more or less absolute zero.


All of which were clogged up by the stealth pylons
At this point, the argument can't be driven any further by either side. See, now that the canonical reasons as to why it can't be detected have been clearly established, it's a technical argument now. In other words, an argument about what the spires can and can't hide, which quite frankly, we know jack s**t about.

Jessie's argument about long range slipspace sensors still stands, however.

Edit: on a side note, I'm surprised that we've managed to keep this relatively cool. That'll probably end pretty soon, after the first two pages get inundated by the others.

[Edited on 06.26.2011 2:21 PM PDT]

  • 06.26.2011 2:18 PM PDT

The pylons themselves would give off a huge energy signature just for trying to hide a ship that big.

  • 06.26.2011 2:18 PM PDT


Posted by: JesseJH

Posted by: immadchill

Posted by: JesseJH

Posted by: JFMK2

Posted by: JesseJH
Yes, I understand why it would be difficult to see space skirmishes from orbit unless you were close.

But the fact that that Corvette wasn't even escorted by at least another corvette or a CCS battlecruiser was very
disappointing.
So we're agreed. What other arguments did you have? That's not a sarcastic question, I genuinely want to continue this debate.


The Supercarrier. It blows my mind how something that size, although cloaked by the spire, does not give off a huge thermal signature. Not only that but when it got to Reach, it would have left a HUGE slipspace signature.



thats what the stealth pylons were for (the ones you saw in Nightfall) they jammed the sensors and emit radiation to hide the spire and itself from sattelites or anything else trying that was trying to find out what was going on


Even if these pylons cloaked even radiation, how did these ships get to Reach without being detected by long-range scanners? Slipspace signatures would have been detected. Especially by the Supercarrier.

During the battle of Earth, we detected Slipspace signatures all the way near Io before they got to Earth.

A supercarrier is a very huge target.


first maybe 3 or less stealth corvettes (which were in the battle of Jericho VII and were undetected until keyes found one by accident) and were able to drop off troops and then would leave and get more and more until they had sufficient forces to construct the stealth pylons and the spires. Then the Supercarrier jumped directly over the dark zone and was cloaked by the spires.

  • 06.26.2011 2:20 PM PDT
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

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Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235
for me its not the 'thermal signature' that people talk about that would give its location away. still don't understand why we all think a space-craft would have an 'enormous' thermal signature, the question of how it go there is what beggars belief, since an in-atmosphere jump would give away its location without a shadow of a doubt.

another thing I think the sheer scale and mass of the super-carrier would give its location away regardless of whether it is 'cloaked' or not, not to mention the amount of energy required to cloak something more than fifteen miles long! in orbit of the Earth right now there is a satellite called G.O.C.E which monitors gravitational field strength of the planet. rather sure G.O.C.E could detect a cloaked super-carrier hovering above our planet, fast forward five hundred years and I would assume more sophisticated gravitational mapping had been developed, the ships have a lot of mass, which affects local gravitational field strength making it almost impossible to hide!

can I ask what gives one the impression that a ship would emit huge amounts of thermal energy? keep in mind that these things need substantial radiation shielding and such to protect crews against stellar radiation and the likes. don't think a 'large' thermal signature would be present just small amount against more or less absolute zero.


Correct, I don't see how Covenant are capable to cloak their ship during Slipspace event and exit out without getting detected. Slipspace ruptures emits lots of Chernobyl radiation (I believe it's what it called, not sure.) which it would flare up in UNSC relay/warning stations.

Thermal signature can be given off, no matter how technologically advanced as cloaking, it still gives off heat signature. (heat is same thing with thermal). For instance, Spartans are capable to seeing cloaked elites, thanks to their enhanced thermal visor in their MJOLNIR helmets. Supercarrier is like 27k long, it would require large size of reactors for this super carrier's functionality and electric wiring can give off heat as it is used to channel the energy from reactor to electronics, whatever.

And you're correct on part where it describes satellites are capable to reading gravitational field strength, and supercarrier's sheer size and mass, would distort the gravitational field strength thus alarming UNSC.

Like JesseH described about UNSC had stations to detect any long-range slip-space ruptures. In first place, they would have detected sneak team immediately. So, let me ask you question to all guys here, how did Covenant manage to slip by undetected even with slipspace ruptures, gravitational field distortion caused by massive size of super carrier, etc? Remember, Covenant are imitative. They don't resort to some kind of scientific method on the technology like Humans do.

[Edited on 06.26.2011 2:24 PM PDT]

  • 06.26.2011 2:20 PM PDT

How would the supercarrier and all other cloaked vessels get that close to Reach without giving off some kind of signature... Whether it be Slipspace from entering the system, or the engine signatures used to maneuver into range and be cloaked by the pylons. It just doesn't add up.

  • 06.26.2011 2:20 PM PDT