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  • Subject: I Declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon Due to Inconsistancies. Arguments pl0x
Subject: I Declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon Due to Inconsistancies. Arguments pl0x
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Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: n008c4k
I would like to know if it really and truly breaks canon that the Autumn is on the ground? Just curious, as it's been awhile since I read TFoR.


It does and doesn't.

It doesn't break canon because there's a large enough time gap between the events in the book and game.

It breaks canon because the PoA was never rated for atmosphere.


It's never really been clear what that term exactly means though. I mean it's obvious that ships that aren't rated for atmosphere are not meant to actually perform a combat role in one, but other than it's not very clear and could mean any number of different things. Going off of size alone I see no problems at all with the Autumn or other similarly sized UNSC ships entering and atmosphere and flying around considering the Spirit of Fire is considerably larger and it was in the atmosphere of that Flood infected Shield World (both the inner and outer sections of the planet) with no problems at all.

As the marines in Halo 3 say, "Is the Dawn rated for atmosphere?". Seeing as there have been a lot of frigates seen in atmosphere (In Amber Clad, Forward Unto Dawn, Grafton, Saratoga, the Sandtrap frigate) I would think the PoA could operate in atmosphere (yes, I know, they're two totally different classes, but...). As for the Spirit of Fire, I would assume that as a colony ship, it would spend extended amounts of time in atmosphere deploying equipment and people and what not.

  • 06.27.2011 10:28 AM PDT


Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: Poy Poy
Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
To be fair, neither Jorge or the Marines had re-entry packs or access to the Sabres.

So it was a suicide mission either way for them?
That's a pretty shoddy plot device for Bungie. Jorge shouldn't be as expendable as he was made out to be. But they had to kill him off somehow.

Which was clearly evident, by the forceful and disbelief-able approach.


I assumed they would plant the makeshift bomb and exit via the pelican.

Since there is nobody left, with 6 having a re-entry pack and the bomb having to be detonated manually, I don't see the point of returning with a pelican alone.

Either that, or a re-entry pack is hidden in Jorge's Armor.

Ahh maybe its what's his beer belly tank is for.
:)

It can't have been the pelican because they had welded the makeshift "bomb", slipspace drive, onto the pelican. Which means they expected it to stay in the hanger.

But I like your attempt to justify it.


Actually I think the Pelican was supposed intended to be one of the options for an escape. The reason Jorge says it's not an option is because the thruster gimble (whatever that is *shrug*) is shot out because the Pelican took some fire on the way in. I think if the bomb being rigged on the Pelican were an issue Jorge probably would have mentioned that. But that's just me.

  • 06.27.2011 10:34 AM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: Poy Poy
Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
To be fair, neither Jorge or the Marines had re-entry packs or access to the Sabres.

So it was a suicide mission either way for them?
That's a pretty shoddy plot device for Bungie. Jorge shouldn't be as expendable as he was made out to be. But they had to kill him off somehow.

Which was clearly evident, by the forceful and disbelief-able approach.


I assumed they would plant the makeshift bomb and exit via the pelican.

Since there is nobody left, with 6 having a re-entry pack and the bomb having to be detonated manually, I don't see the point of returning with a pelican alone.

Either that, or a re-entry pack is hidden in Jorge's Armor.

Ahh maybe its what's his beer belly tank is for.
:)

It can't have been the pelican because they had welded the makeshift "bomb", slipspace drive, onto the pelican. Which means they expected it to stay in the hanger.

But I like your attempt to justify it.


Actually I think the Pelican was supposed intended to be one of the options for an escape. The reason Jorge says it's not an option is because the thruster gimble (whatever that is *shrug*) is shot out because the Pelican took some fire on the way in. I think if the bomb being rigged on the Pelican were an issue Jorge probably would have mentioned that. But that's just me.

At 1:10

  • 06.27.2011 10:54 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
To be fair, neither Jorge or the Marines had re-entry packs or access to the Sabres.

So it was a suicide mission either way for them?
That's a pretty shoddy plot device for Bungie. Jorge shouldn't be as expendable as he was made out to be. But they had to kill him off somehow.

Which was clearly evident, by the forceful and disbelief-able approach.

Well, the Sabre was saying "Warning, M-Spec re-entry pack disengaged" when Jorge was trying to get out. I assume the Savannah was to be their ticket out until it got -blam!- up.

  • 06.27.2011 12:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: Poy Poy
Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
To be fair, neither Jorge or the Marines had re-entry packs or access to the Sabres.

So it was a suicide mission either way for them?
That's a pretty shoddy plot device for Bungie. Jorge shouldn't be as expendable as he was made out to be. But they had to kill him off somehow.

Which was clearly evident, by the forceful and disbelief-able approach.


I assumed they would plant the makeshift bomb and exit via the pelican.

Since there is nobody left, with 6 having a re-entry pack and the bomb having to be detonated manually, I don't see the point of returning with a pelican alone.

Either that, or a re-entry pack is hidden in Jorge's Armor.

Ahh maybe its what's his beer belly tank is for.
:)

It can't have been the pelican because they had welded the makeshift "bomb", slipspace drive, onto the pelican. Which means they expected it to stay in the hanger.

But I like your attempt to justify it.


Actually I think the Pelican was supposed intended to be one of the options for an escape. The reason Jorge says it's not an option is because the thruster gimble (whatever that is *shrug*) is shot out because the Pelican took some fire on the way in. I think if the bomb being rigged on the Pelican were an issue Jorge probably would have mentioned that. But that's just me.

Gimbal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimbal (url if link doesn't work)
From that definition, I'm going to assume that the motors that rotate the pelican's thrusters were damaged, meaning the flight path would be erratic or it wouldn't be able to get away in time.

  • 06.27.2011 12:39 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: n008c4k

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: n008c4k
I would like to know if it really and truly breaks canon that the Autumn is on the ground? Just curious, as it's been awhile since I read TFoR.


It does and doesn't.

It doesn't break canon because there's a large enough time gap between the events in the book and game.

It breaks canon because the PoA was never rated for atmosphere.


It's never really been clear what that term exactly means though. I mean it's obvious that ships that aren't rated for atmosphere are not meant to actually perform a combat role in one, but other than it's not very clear and could mean any number of different things. Going off of size alone I see no problems at all with the Autumn or other similarly sized UNSC ships entering and atmosphere and flying around considering the Spirit of Fire is considerably larger and it was in the atmosphere of that Flood infected Shield World (both the inner and outer sections of the planet) with no problems at all.

As the marines in Halo 3 say, "Is the Dawn rated for atmosphere?". Seeing as there have been a lot of frigates seen in atmosphere (In Amber Clad, Forward Unto Dawn, Grafton, Saratoga, the Sandtrap frigate) I would think the PoA could operate in atmosphere (yes, I know, they're two totally different classes, but...). As for the Spirit of Fire, I would assume that as a colony ship, it would spend extended amounts of time in atmosphere deploying equipment and people and what not.

Also, in Halo CE, PoA crash-landed on 04, and was pretty intact. (No reactor breaches, computers functional, 'hogs and longsword fully intact...) I'd say it can, based previous points, land on that dry-dock-thingy. And then they put those rockets on to help it leave atmosphere. (I suspect it has "UNSC floating devices" that are not powerful enough for it to hover, but powerful enough to slow down it's descent)

  • 06.27.2011 12:49 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

A crash landing is different than a landing involving no damage.

Keyes wanted to crash the PoA into halo, he wasn't trying to land pretty like in reach. not to mention that gravity is helping him with his goal.

  • 06.27.2011 12:55 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: grey101
A crash landing is different than a landing involving no damage.

Keyes wanted to crash the PoA into halo, he wasn't trying to land pretty like in reach. not to mention that gravity is helping him with his goal.

I meant something like emergency landing, where you try to avoid damage. I'm pretty sure Keyes would have landed just as nicely as in Reach if he could.

  • 06.27.2011 1:03 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: grey101
A crash landing is different than a landing involving no damage.

Keyes wanted to crash the PoA into halo, he wasn't trying to land pretty like in reach. not to mention that gravity is helping him with his goal.

I meant something like emergency landing, where you try to avoid damage. I'm pretty sure Keyes would have landed just as nicely as in Reach if he could.


that ships is not aerodynamic whatsoever

  • 06.27.2011 1:05 PM PDT

Jorge: "Is there any place the Covenant isn't?"

Six: "Ya. SPACE. One freakin Carrier has the whole planet going to Hell? Military stronghold of the UNSC? Are you kidding me? Next you're gona tell me that the Master Chief is taking a nap in a cryo tube while I'm making the ultimate sacrifice."

Jorge: "well...um...."

Six: "And you're probably gonna tell me that our super mac cannons can't kill it."

Jorge: "Funny thing about that..."

Six: "And we're probably gonna have to kill you just to blow up this panzy carrier instead of mac blasting it out of orbit."

*Jorge dies*

Six: "Wait, what?!"


  • 06.27.2011 1:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: grey101
A crash landing is different than a landing involving no damage.

Keyes wanted to crash the PoA into halo, he wasn't trying to land pretty like in reach. not to mention that gravity is helping him with his goal.

I meant something like emergency landing, where you try to avoid damage. I'm pretty sure Keyes would have landed just as nicely as in Reach if he could.


that ships is not aerodynamic whatsoever

If it was tilted at an angle, I bet the thrusters could keep it from dropping like a rock. Actually, better question, how do the frigates and Spirit of Fire stay aloft in atmosphere?? I see no thrusters providing vertical lift. Any way, I bet they have tugboats of sorts that guide the ships into drydock. It's like the modern navies of the world, but in 3D.

  • 06.27.2011 1:14 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: n008c4k

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: grey101
A crash landing is different than a landing involving no damage.

Keyes wanted to crash the PoA into halo, he wasn't trying to land pretty like in reach. not to mention that gravity is helping him with his goal.

I meant something like emergency landing, where you try to avoid damage. I'm pretty sure Keyes would have landed just as nicely as in Reach if he could.


that ships is not aerodynamic whatsoever

If it was tilted at an angle, I bet the thrusters could keep it from dropping like a rock. Actually, better question, how do the frigates and Spirit of Fire stay aloft in atmosphere?? I see no thrusters providing vertical lift. Any way, I bet they have tugboats of sorts that guide the ships into drydock. It's like the modern navies of the world, but in 3D.


that is alot of energy being used to keep that ship up.

We assume that the UNSC was able to reverse engineer some of the covenant gravity plating and apply that to the smaller UNSC ships.

I have no explanation for colony ships other than they have bottom thrusters like you said.

the issue is that reach has docks in orbit along with ships breaking yards.

  • 06.27.2011 1:17 PM PDT


Posted by: ninjakenzen

Posted by: OrderedComa
Actually I think the Pelican was supposed intended to be one of the options for an escape. The reason Jorge says it's not an option is because the thruster gimble (whatever that is *shrug*) is shot out because the Pelican took some fire on the way in. I think if the bomb being rigged on the Pelican were an issue Jorge probably would have mentioned that. But that's just me.

At 1:10


Yeah I know, I noticed that on my first playthrough, I don't think it'd be too difficult to try to remove though. It probably was not the plan to just leave the Pelican there, probably expected there'd be enough people to require a proper evac transport. If the timer on the bomb hadn't fried I would expect they'd remove the drive from the Pelican and get out of there on it.

  • 06.30.2011 10:46 AM PDT
Subject: I Declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. If you don't agree... Why?

blarg


Posted by: immadchill

Posted by: JesseJH


Posted by: JesseJH

Posted by: JFMK2

Posted by: JesseJH
Yes, I understand why it would be difficult to see space skirmishes from orbit unless you were close.

But the fact that that Corvette wasn't even escorted by at least another corvette or a CCS battlecruiser was very
disappointing.[/quote]So we're agreed. What other arguments did you have? That's not a sarcastic question, I genuinely want to continue this debate.


The Supercarrier. It blows my mind how something that size, although cloaked by the spire, does not give off a huge thermal signature. Not only that but when it got to Reach, it would have left a HUGE slipspace signature.



thats what the stealth pylons were for (the ones you saw in Nightfall) they jammed the sensors and emit radiation to hide the spire and itself from sattelites or anything else trying that was trying to find out what was going on


Even if these pylons cloaked even radiation, how did these ships get to Reach without being detected by long-range scanners? Slipspace signatures would have been detected. Especially by the Supercarrier.

During the battle of Earth, we detected Slipspace signatures all the way near Io before they got to Earth.

A supercarrier is a very huge target.


first maybe 3 or less stealth corvettes (which were in the battle of Jericho VII and were undetected until keyes found one by accident) and were able to drop off troops and then would leave and get more and more until they had sufficient forces to construct the stealth pylons and the spires. Then the Supercarrier jumped directly over the dark zone and was cloaked by the spires.
this

  • 07.01.2011 12:27 AM PDT
Subject: I Declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon Due to Inconsistancies. Arguments pl0x

We fight for that which is lost in the hope that what is lost can be found.

Amen to the title of this thread.

  • 07.01.2011 1:25 AM PDT


Posted by: raganok99

Posted by: immadchill

Posted by: raganok99

Posted by: JesseJH
I do declare Reach non-canon because it makes no sense and doesnt fit. That doesn't mean it's official and that it isnt canon just because I said so.


Exactly, that's what I meant when I refuse to consider Reach as canon because it doesn't make any sense especially with timeline, super-carrier event and sneaking to Reach without any slip-space rupture detection, PoA being on ground and several inconsistencies.

Funny thing is that I'm only Noble member here... 0.0 (Sorry for off-topic!)

So, I think I shall side with OP for this.


The timeline is fine and I have written one in the unexplainable errors thread, sensors were jammed with stealth pylons and it was cloaked by the spires and jumped into sub orbital space so it couldn't get shot down by SMACS, POA is easily explainable.


Your suggestion/theory brings up several problems:

1. UNSC is heavily militarized in Reach, it's pretty obvious that they would want to know why their sensor isn't working properly, thus sending someone to investigate. Bam! They see super-carrier or any ships there, then call fleet to immediately attack the "invading" forces. And, they have stations that are designed to read the gravitational field strengths, it's obviously that they can see large distortion caused by Super-Carrier or stealth pylons as well.

2. Covenant is imitative, I don't see how that stealth pylons are capable to covering up very LARGE slip-space signature left behind by exiting from slip-space. And you know that radiation can penetrate cloaking, depending on types of radiation. Besides, it would require large source of energy for stealth pylons to cover that as well. Which i can assume that large source of energy would be equivalent to sun-like energy that is necessary enough to cloak that big and high radiations released by slip-space.

3. No, PoA is not easily explainable because to propel off this massive beast from the ground, IT WOULD BE MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF ENERGY REQUIRED TO propel this beast off the ground! Look at thrusters, it's obvious that they are small, all right? I estimate it wouldn't be bigger than 200 to 450 meters long. Even with dozens of it, it wouldn't be enough energy to actually lift off this beast off from this ground! Gravity plays a key role in the planets, gravity can AFFECT anything, even to this PoA. Countering the gravitational strength, would normally require large amounts of energy to do this.

4. No again, timeline is messed up as well. PoA are supposed to be battling against super-cruiser, aiding the defensive fleet, dropping off Blue Team to secure NAV data in Circumference at GAMMA STATION.

I have read your posts on unexplainable errors thread, and I don't agree with your posts because of several problems appeared, as I explained here. I'll bring this post to that thread as soon I can.


1. We don't know how long the dark zone was there though or when it was activated. From the dialogue in the game it doesn't sound like it had been the dark zone had been active for all that long.

2. Them being imitative does not preclude new technology coming along or them finding a new use for a technology they had already reverse engineered. All it means is that they don't invent anything for themselves or attempt to improve on the technology they all ready have. Obviously the Covenant have some way to mask their exits from Slipspace to some degree, or they at least did for the Long Night of Solace anyway. And the UNSC did detect Covenant forces arriving, but whatever the Covenant did to mask their ships were only detected as slight anomalies that were written off as nothing.

3. Those booster tugs were actually pretty damn big, I'd guess them to be at least twice the size of a Pelican. And do you even know how much force they generate? I don't think you do. And those thrusters were only to get it up off the ground, breaking atmosphere was handled by the Autumn itself. In case you didn't notice it was angled upward at a slight angle where its own thrusters would push it out of Reach's atmosphere.

4. Um, the Autumn came down after it had extracted Chief and the remnants of his team from Gamma Station. It's not in two places at once, the end of Reach and the end of TFoR are hours apart from each other. TFoR ends at about 6:15 or 6:30 in the morning, and then the ending of Reach where you deliver the Cortana fragment to the Autumn is at about 4:30 in the afternoon, that's when the final mission starts at least.

  • 07.03.2011 7:00 PM PDT

Here are the essential facts.

>Most of the UNSC ships were in other areas at the time.
>The initial covenant forces were a advanced strike force not an invasion force of hundreds.
>The Supercarrier and corvette destroyed many UNSC ships that were already there and backed of to avoid being engaged.
>Jorge's death was scripted any way.
>The invasion fleet arrived after the Long Night of Solace was destroyed.
>Read Halopedia to see how this all fits in.

  • 07.03.2011 10:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cannonfodder14
Here are the essential facts.

>Most of the UNSC ships were in other areas at the time.
>The initial covenant forces were a advanced strike force not an invasion force of hundreds.
>The Supercarrier and corvette destroyed many UNSC ships that were already there and backed of to avoid being engaged.
>Jorge's death was scripted any way.
>The invasion fleet arrived after the Long Night of Solace was destroyed.
>Read Halopedia to see how this all fits in.




True, This is the page you should read.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Fall_of_Reach

  • 07.03.2011 11:22 PM PDT
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I don't care what u guys say but i think the Halo Wiki is true canon

  • 07.03.2011 11:25 PM PDT
Subject: I Declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. If you don't agree... Why?
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Yes I'm fairly young. No, that doesn't mean I'm automatically dumber than you or have less life experience, thats just generally the case. I am not your general case.

Reach is consistent with cannon, you just have to work around a few minor inconstant set pieces and all that, and it works out just fine.

  • 07.04.2011 1:15 AM PDT
Subject: I Declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon Due to Inconsistancies. Arguments pl0x

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Silor101

Posted by: Cannonfodder14
Here are the essential facts.

>Most of the UNSC ships were in other areas at the time.
>The initial covenant forces were a advanced strike force not an invasion force of hundreds.
>The Supercarrier and corvette destroyed many UNSC ships that were already there and backed of to avoid being engaged.
>Jorge's death was scripted any way.
>The invasion fleet arrived after the Long Night of Solace was destroyed.
>Read Halopedia to see how this all fits in.




True, This is the page you should read.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Fall_of_Reach


Or better yet, go here.

Fall of Reach.

  • 07.04.2011 2:30 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Silor101
I don't care what u guys say but i think the Halo Wiki is true canon


That's just incredibly stupid logic considering that anyone in this thread (or anywhere else) can go and change anything in the wiki and bend the mindless sheep into believing anything about Halo.

  • 07.04.2011 3:02 AM PDT

Whisper Game Studios - shhhh, it's a public secret.
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[*Please note that anything in my posts is likely to be filled with sarcasm, and should be taken with a pinch of salt. I tend to help people, usually*]

I'm going to disregard everyone and say:

Bungie has always had their own story in mind. Bungie chose to completely disregard Microsoft's novels and stories.

It is my firm belief that Bungie only wanted there to be a single Spartan left after Reach fell. Microsoft and its authors disagreed apparently.

So I say there is a Bungie Canon and a Microsoft Canon.

Play all the Bungie Halo games in chronological order, ignoring all of Microsoft's content, and you'll find that they all make complete sense.

Read all of Microsoft's books and games and watch all of the Halo anime and you'll see a lot of inconsistencies with Spartan numbers, among other things, even if you ignore Bungie's Halo games, especially Reach.

So you choose which is the better canon to pay attention to.

I'm personally only going to concentrate on what the actual games tell me. Even 343i's games, because anything they do now will not affect any of Bungie's games retroactively, so it's a win there.

  • 07.04.2011 3:09 AM PDT


Posted by: Silor101
I don't care what u guys say but i think the Halo Wiki is true canon
lol, seriously?

  • 07.04.2011 3:14 AM PDT

Wow, I seriously don't know why this thread made it to 6 pages. The only thing that needs to be said is that Games > Books in terms of canon.

  • 07.04.2011 6:48 AM PDT