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This topic has moved here: Subject: definitive editions of fall of reach and first strike
  • Subject: definitive editions of fall of reach and first strike
Subject: definitive editions of fall of reach and first strike

Does anyone know what differences there are between these and the updated versions that came out in 2010?

  • 06.27.2011 1:01 AM PDT

I like Call of Duty and Gears of War, AND Halo. Why must everyone else like only one or the other?

Well, the DE of First Strike is the one that came out in 2010. However, the DE of FoR did just recently come out. While I myself haven't read the DE of FoR yet (nor have I read the updated 2010 edition yet either), I do know that it corrects the dates at the end of the book. (not sure why they got the dates wrong in the 2010 edition) I'm also pretty sure I read from someone who got his hands on the DE early from Barnes and Noble, that it also changes the whole Hunters being encountered for the first time on Sigma Octanus IV, similar to the change of never having encountered Elites before. Those are the only ones I know.

  • 06.27.2011 6:34 AM PDT

Thanks! I'll probably order them off of Amazon today then!

  • 06.27.2011 8:02 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

What battle was fought before sigma that had hunters excluding halowars events?

  • 06.27.2011 8:15 AM PDT

I like Call of Duty and Gears of War, AND Halo. Why must everyone else like only one or the other?


Posted by: grey101
What battle was fought before sigma that had hunters excluding halowars events?


Well, how can I tell you when they were encountered before if you tell me to exclude when they were encountered before? Because I'm pretty sure their being in Halo Wars is why that's changed. (similar to the change in the copy Cortana's dialogue about Brutes in First Strike because of Contact Harvest)

  • 06.27.2011 8:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: The Elite Elite

Posted by: grey101
What battle was fought before sigma that had hunters excluding halowars events?


Well, how can I tell you when they were encountered before if you tell me to exclude when they were encountered before? Because I'm pretty sure their being in Halo Wars is why that's changed. (similar to the change in the copy Cortana's dialogue about Brutes in First Strike because of Contact Harvest)


I said excluding halowars for a reason, gameplay elements.

and cortana s line was correct because brutes were removed from the frontlines after contact. that is about 25 years of not seeing brutes other than missions withing covenant lines.

  • 06.27.2011 8:33 AM PDT

Walk softly, and carry a big midget.


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: The Elite Elite

Posted by: grey101
What battle was fought before sigma that had hunters excluding halowars events?


Well, how can I tell you when they were encountered before if you tell me to exclude when they were encountered before? Because I'm pretty sure their being in Halo Wars is why that's changed. (similar to the change in the copy Cortana's dialogue about Brutes in First Strike because of Contact Harvest)


I said excluding halowars for a reason, gameplay elements.

and cortana s line was correct because brutes were removed from the frontlines after contact. that is about 25 years of not seeing brutes other than missions withing covenant lines.


Go read Halo Evolutions and watch Halo Legends and come back. Hunters and Brutes were there throughout the whole war.

  • 06.27.2011 9:11 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Jayster 94

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: The Elite Elite

Posted by: grey101
What battle was fought before sigma that had hunters excluding halowars events?


Well, how can I tell you when they were encountered before if you tell me to exclude when they were encountered before? Because I'm pretty sure their being in Halo Wars is why that's changed. (similar to the change in the copy Cortana's dialogue about Brutes in First Strike because of Contact Harvest)


I said excluding halowars for a reason, gameplay elements.

and cortana s line was correct because brutes were removed from the frontlines after contact. that is about 25 years of not seeing brutes other than missions withing covenant lines.


Go read Halo Evolutions and watch Halo Legends and come back. Hunters and Brutes were there throughout the whole war.


what story of evolutions? i have the book, and legends doesn't say anything about anything.

  • 06.27.2011 9:13 AM PDT

Walk softly, and carry a big midget.

Posted by: grey101
what story of evolutions? i have the book, and legends doesn't say anything about anything.


There is a Hunter in the Halo Legends Prototype episode along with Brutes in the Package and the Babysitter. In Evolutions The Return has Hunters, Stomping on the Heels of a Fuss has Brutes and in Dirt Hunters and Brutes are both mentioned.

Halo Blood Line had Hunters too.

Also, First Strike (Where Brutes were supposedly first encountered) is after Halo Reach which had Brutes in it.

These things have to be retconned otherwise things like comic books, stories and even a couple of the video games would be boring. I don't think the Covenant would get far with just Elites, Grunts, Jackals and Drones anyway.

  • 06.27.2011 9:28 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Jayster 94
Posted by: grey101
what story of evolutions? i have the book, and legends doesn't say anything about anything.


There is a Hunter in the Halo Legends Prototype episode along with Brutes in the Package and the Babysitter. In Evolutions The Return has Hunters, Stomping on the Heels of a Fuss has Brutes and in Dirt Hunters and Brutes are both mentioned.

Halo Blood Line had Hunters too.

Also, First Strike (Where Brutes were supposedly first encountered) is after Halo Reach which had Brutes in it.

These things have to be retconned otherwise things like comic books, stories and even a couple of the video games would be boring. I don't think the Covenant would get far with just Elites, Grunts, Jackals and Drones anyway.


1. no date was given as to when prototype took place, so you can't use this.

2. bloodline takes place 2552 which is the end of the war; not to mention that they are fighting an isolated source and can't tell ONI (if this were at an earlier date)

3. Again brutes were already seen at harvest but removed, seeing them here is reinforcing that fact (used during end of war). and we do not know if the brutes had widespread deployment on the planet. first strike takes place just after reach anyway so the Spartans couldn't possibly be updated on them.

4. Fuss takes places during the attack on reach, the brutes landed on beta gabriel for some reason (forgot). seeing how this is an isolated encounter it does not count not to mention the ONI spook spoke of seeing them on high charity.


you totally disregarded the dates and circumstances that all of the creatures were seen. you have yet to give me a clear date and engagement that brutes and hunters were fought.

  • 06.27.2011 9:41 AM PDT

Walk softly, and carry a big midget.

Posted by: grey101
you totally disregarded the dates and circumstances that all of the creatures were seen. you have yet to give me a clear date and engagement that brutes and hunters were fought.


I don't have any of the books with me at the moment, so I was going by what I remember.

Anyway, Brutes and Hunters were in Halo Wars and don't say it was for gameplay. Hunters were on Arcadia, fact. Why wouldn't the Covenant use Brutes and Hunters for 25 years anyway? That's like saying they didn't have Spirits until Reach.

Another thing, you didn't have an excuse for Brutes being in the Package and The Babysitter and Hunters being in The Return.

Why's it so hard to believe that Brutes and Hunters were there since the beginning anyway? You're being a bit close minded thinking that the Covenant only invaded planets with Elites, Grunts, Jackals and Drones.

  • 06.27.2011 10:26 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Jayster 94
Posted by: grey101
you totally disregarded the dates and circumstances that all of the creatures were seen. you have yet to give me a clear date and engagement that brutes and hunters were fought.


I don't have any of the books with me at the moment, so I was going by what I remember.

Anyway, Brutes and Hunters were in Halo Wars and don't say it was for gameplay. Hunters were on Arcadia, fact. Why wouldn't the Covenant use Brutes and Hunters for 25 years anyway? That's like saying they didn't have Spirits until Reach.

Another thing, you didn't have an excuse for Brutes being in the Package and The Babysitter and Hunters being in The Return.

Why's it so hard to believe that Brutes and Hunters were there since the beginning anyway? You're being a bit close minded thinking that the Covenant only invaded planets with Elites, Grunts, Jackals and Drones.


when talking about halowars go by the cutscenes mainly.

because the covenant (prophets) didn't think humanity was worth using the "good' forces. no, it is like saying they didn
't have phantoms until halo 2 in which it that was explained not fixed.

um the brutes in the package were on a covenant ship which proves my point of them not fighting.

The babysitter was on a covenant controlled planet again proving my point and again not date was given.

All the covenant used before were jackals and grunts (drones are not combat personnel) humanity is the first race if not in awhile that the covenant had to use hunters on.

  • 06.27.2011 11:10 AM PDT

Walk softly, and carry a big midget.

Posted by: grey101
because the covenant (prophets) didn't think humanity was worth using the "good' forces.


Why did they use Elites then? They are surely the best force in the Covenant's arsenal. Brutes can command ships and troops fine, so why have Elites?

If we're only going by Halo War's Cutscenes then that means we can only go by all the other game's cutscenes. So that means Master Chief can't dual wield, Scarabs never existed along with half the other things in the games.

It's just stupid to think that the only thing that's canon in the games are the cutscenes.

The only things that aren't considered canon in ALL of the games are things that are directly linked to the game mechanics. The Health of enemy and friendly AI, difficuly levels (Elite taking a rocket to the face and surviving), Spartans having shield in Halo Wars to make them different from other Units. These are gameplay elements. Of course people could always try and make up reasons as to why they could be canon but it doesn't matter, it's just for gameplay and to make the game fun.

Hunters and Brutes are in Halo Wars so that you have a different enemy to fight and to make the player change his/her tactics when fighting them, just like Hunters and Brutes in the rest of the Halo games.

It doesn't matter if it's in gameplay or not, Humanity has fought Hunters and Brutes along with the rest of the Covenant species (Except Prophets obviously) since the beginning.

  • 06.27.2011 11:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Jayster 94
Posted by: grey101
because the covenant (prophets) didn't think humanity was worth using the "good' forces.


Why did they use Elites then? They are surely the best force in the Covenant's arsenal. Brutes can command ships and troops fine, so why have Elites?

If we're only going by Halo War's Cutscenes then that means we can only go by all the other game's cutscenes. So that means Master Chief can't dual wield, Scarabs never existed along with half the other things in the games.

It's just stupid to think that the only thing that's canon in the games are the cutscenes.

The only things that aren't considered canon in ALL of the games are things that are directly linked to the game mechanics. The Health of enemy and friendly AI, difficuly levels (Elite taking a rocket to the face and surviving), Spartans having shield in Halo Wars to make them different from other Units. These are gameplay elements. Of course people could always try and make up reasons as to why they could be canon but it doesn't matter, it's just for gameplay and to make the game fun.

Hunters and Brutes are in Halo Wars so that you have a different enemy to fight and to make the player change his/her tactics when fighting them, just like Hunters and Brutes in the rest of the Halo games.

It doesn't matter if it's in gameplay or not, Humanity has fought Hunters and Brutes along with the rest of the Covenant species (Except Prophets obviously) since the beginning.


Elites were seen sporadically during the war mainly as leader units, they didn't "fully" appear until reach timing.

Halowars is an RTS game which means it is going to use far more gameplay elements than a FPS. stop mindlessly using logic.

Why are prophets excluded but the others aren't? they were seen in the babysitter and in halowars thus we have been fighting them the entire war.

  • 06.27.2011 11:38 AM PDT

Walk softly, and carry a big midget.

Posted by: grey101
Why are prophets excluded but the others aren't? they were seen in the babysitter and in halowars thus we have been fighting them the entire war.


I don't remember anyone "fighting" a Prophet until Halo 2, and even then, I don't think Regret had much of a choice. As for the Babysitter assassination, that isn't fighting either.

Prophets do not fight on the frontlines as they are the scientist and the political leader of the Covenant. There are REASONS why they don't fight. I find it funny that you say they've been "fighting" the Prophets the entire war, even though they were never seen outside of Covenant controlled space, but you think that Hunters and Brutes, which are combat units, never fought in a war?

  • 06.27.2011 12:01 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Jayster 94
Posted by: grey101
what story of evolutions? i have the book, and legends doesn't say anything about anything.


There is a Hunter in the Halo Legends Prototype episode along with Brutes in the Package and the Babysitter. In Evolutions The Return has Hunters, Stomping on the Heels of a Fuss has Brutes and in Dirt Hunters and Brutes are both mentioned.

Halo Blood Line had Hunters too.

Also, First Strike (Where Brutes were supposedly first encountered) is after Halo Reach which had Brutes in it.

These things have to be retconned otherwise things like comic books, stories and even a couple of the video games would be boring. I don't think the Covenant would get far with just Elites, Grunts, Jackals and Drones anyway.


1. no date was given as to when prototype took place, so you can't use this.


Actually, there are hints given. Prototype most likely takes place shortly before Midnight at the Heart of Midlothian, which would place it at about the same time as Halo (CE) takes place (September 2552)

2. bloodline takes place 2552 which is the end of the war; not to mention that they are fighting an isolated source and can't tell ONI (if this were at an earlier date)

3. Again brutes were already seen at harvest but removed, seeing them here is reinforcing that fact (used during end of war). and we do not know if the brutes had widespread deployment on the planet. first strike takes place just after reach anyway so the Spartans couldn't possibly be updated on them.


While you are right about Black Team in Bloodlines (takes place roughly at the same time as Fall of Reach/Reach) there is a possibility UNSC forces saw Brutes after Wars. Headhunters mentions Brutes (in the "apes or gators" line). And Headhunters takes place before the fall of Reach (prior to 2552, and given the fact that Roland and Jonah must be roughly the same age as Noble Team, it would take place sometime around 2550)


4. Fuss takes places during the attack on reach, the brutes landed on beta gabriel for some reason (forgot). seeing how this is an isolated encounter it does not count not to mention the ONI spook spoke of seeing them on high charity.


Fuss most likely takes place sometime during September (sources like Halopedia mention the main character (who dies in the book) to have a date of death in September 2552). So that is after FoR/Reach and prior or around the time of First Strike. So if that was the first documented encounter with Brutes after Wars (unlikely) then you are right ;)


you totally disregarded the dates and circumstances that all of the creatures were seen. you have yet to give me a clear date and engagement that brutes and hunters were fought.

Not saying I disagree or agree with either of you. Its just that I'm working on a timeline as we speak and multiple sources make it possible for Brute encounters between Wars and First Strike. Its just that they were most likely never deployed en masse again after Contact Harvest.
As for Hunters: I think its safe to say they were frequently encountered after Wars as they don't appear to be strangers to the UNSC in any story taking place from Wars on.

[Edited on 06.27.2011 12:20 PM PDT]

  • 06.27.2011 12:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

1. if that is true then you are indirectly supporting me.

2. the point i am saying is after harvest brutes were no longer seen on the frontlines. every "example" as been on

covenant ship, covenant planet, behind covenant lines (headhunters),etc

There is not "battle of crete" in which the brutes we on the frontlines prior to the being used again around the timeline of 2552

  • 06.27.2011 12:35 PM PDT

1: sure, no problem ;)

2: but behind enemy lines doesn't make it impossible for the UNSC not to know more about Brutes etc by the time of First Strike.
Grey Team, Black Team, Headhunters all went behind enemy lines all the time and we know of Headhunters that they've fought Brutes (and Grey and Black could also have fought them) and came back in UNSC controlled space frequently.

Like I said before: I'm not against both of you. You have the dates etc on your side, but the other dude has a logical point too.
In the end we should consider the fact that we've fought Brutes on Wars alone as enough evidence to rewrite the lines about them in First Strike. And add to that the very likely possibility of more Brute encounters.

Now, I've only skimmed briefly through your discussion above, so I don't know the details, so don't get me wrong or whatever ;) I just came in to set some things straight nothing more, nothing less.

  • 06.27.2011 12:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

What i am also saying is just because we have seen them several times does not mean we know everything about them. thus cortana's line in FS would still stand regardless.

What would see call them? she has no reason to call them brutes since she doesn't have anything on them. the most she could accurately say is that "this is a race of covenant that we have not seen since the events of harvest" or something along those lines.

brutes were re-deployed to fight towards the end of the war when truth wanted power. anytime before then is always circumstantial.

  • 06.27.2011 12:48 PM PDT