Halo 1 & 2 for PC
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Subject: Do you want bungie more involved in HaloCE?
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i would really think that no one will care about ce once halo 2 comes out. but us computer gamers have to wait another year, or hopefully, as rumered, to come out in spring. But until then I think halo ce needs to stay alive. Yes i think there should be more attention towards halo ce.

  • 09.07.2004 7:27 PM PDT
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For me the indoor, close range maps are terrible to play on because of all the bump warping (when your screen warps around when you're near other players). Bump warping is just more of a factor on smaller, confined maps. So not only is the framerate nearly unplayable, but the lag and warping is much worse for close range combat.

Plus from the way you explained UT2k4's policy on cheating that seems a little too harsh. You cheat once then all that money you paid for the game is a waste now. You cant go online.

Well, some people might think it's too harsh, but that's what makes it a great deterrent. Someone who might be inclined to cheat occasionally won't do it because they don't want to be perma-banned. If you cheat, you're ruining the point of the game and the fun for everyone else. So I have no problem with the punishment Epic has. And besides, they're pretty cool about it if you're unfairly banned. Like if it thinks you're cheating when you're really not, you can contact them and straighten things out.

But anyway, back to Halo. I appreciate what the community is doing and has done. But I think you can only go so far when your starting point is such an inferior product (which HaloPC/CE is). It's sad. The community is so valiant while the developers (e.g. Gearbox) seem to not give the proverbial rodent's bottom. I honestly can't understand how people still defend them. This game had so much potential... :-(

  • 09.07.2004 8:06 PM PDT
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For me the indoor, close range maps are terrible to play on because of all the bump warping (when your screen warps around when you're near other players). Bump warping is just more of a factor on smaller, confined maps. So not only is the framerate nearly unplayable, but the lag and warping is much worse for close range combat.

A tool has been released for dedicated servers that gets rid of almost all lag and warping for the people playing that server. If you want to try it out it is eps third server.

  • 09.07.2004 9:45 PM PDT
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Well I would like some more support, but not at the cost of slowing Halo 2s development. Considering blizzard is working round the clock on Halo 2, I dont think they have time for PC

  • 09.07.2004 11:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: Zels
Well I would like some more support, but not at the cost of slowing Halo 2s development. Considering blizzard is working round the clock on Halo 2, I dont think they have time for PC


Blizzard is making Halo 2?!?!?!?!?

  • 09.08.2004 1:00 PM PDT
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i was just gonna say that question above. ??? ^

  • 09.08.2004 9:37 PM PDT
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Hell, when are they gonna support Halo PC??? Cuz forcing patches on everyone that shuts down 75% of all the game servers IS NOT support...it's sabotage... or at a minimum, gross-incompetence.

  • 09.10.2004 4:24 PM PDT
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Posted by: TalkingElmo
[quote]Complex physics? Hmm, doesn't seem to pose a problem for the Xbox's 733MHz Pentium III with 64MB of unified (i.e. combined video and system) memory.


Maybe somebody else put it but I don't know, I never read all of it.
The xbox is technically a console.
My 800MHZ 128MB RAM can NOT play ANY game as fast as an xbox, nor can any PC in the world with the specs off the processor and the amount of RAM.
State of the art PC's are designed to match state of the art consoles in play, though towards the end of the consoles life the PC obviously becomes much better.
If PC's and xbox's were comparatively the same our PC's would not have passed 1.6GHZ before the xbox2 comes out.
Also if I remember rightly, the PS2 has a 295MHZ (somewhere around there) processor, which is insanely slow, yet the PS2 can still put out good games, and the same for the 485MHZ of the GC although comparatively it has quite low memory as stated by the makers of Conflict Desert Storm (was that ubi soft...).

someone mentioned something about Halo and xbox netcode.
As far as I know, unless you are talking about Halo 2, halo never has been on the net.
System link and all that yeah, but that was optimised for LAN like settings and there would be no need for adjustment such as 5000PPS-25000PPS+ as in PC version of halo.
Though I would like to see microsoft make an app like Insta Unlagged for Quake 3, where it records the servers previous positions instead of just the current positions meaning their is hardly any lag, although I do believe the lag-fix on CE which someone created for dedicated servers is somewhat similar to this.

  • 09.10.2004 4:58 PM PDT
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Posted by:Ekul1021
Blizzard is making Halo 2?!?!?!?!?

No. Don't we all wish. Zels made a typo. He meant Bungie, I'm wagering.

Posted by:nVid
Hell, when are they gonna support Halo PC??? Cuz forcing patches on everyone that shuts down 75% of all the game servers IS NOT support...it's sabotage... or at a minimum, gross-incompetence.


Wake up and smell the coffee. That's what this thread is about. Halo PC most likely will receive no future support in the form of patches. It is slated to receive critical updates, such as what we've just seen with version 1.05. Halo PC will likely not receive patches that add new features or performance gains. All non-critical updates - i.e. ones that deal with performance or new features - are slated for Halo Custom Edition, which is a separate, standalone version of Halo multiplayer that supports custom maps. In short: Halo PC has seen the last of "development" and is now merely seeing upkeep programming. Halo Custom Edition still has potential to see development if people would play it. In short, this thread is pushing for support for Halo CE, not Halo PC.

  • 09.10.2004 4:59 PM PDT
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In short, this thread is pushing for support for Halo CE
Just for the people that dont know what HaloCE is it is Halo Custom Edition. It is a separate download from HaloPC. All you need is your current HaloPC CD key and the use of your halo disc to play Halo Custom Edition. Aside from the fixes and fast shaders Gearbox promised us in a patch they have redone the .map system to support custom user made maps. Thus the name Custom Edition. If we either get the numbers up at constant highs, at least half of what HaloPC has its peak hours, then Randy Pitchford will commission the team to make a patch. If trends show the patch had a positive effect on numbers ,IE more players playing , they might continue to patch HaloCE. So we either need to have bungie get in on this or try and muster up hype about HaloCE so the numbers will climb and stay very high.

  • 09.10.2004 6:16 PM PDT
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Well, from the looks of it, Bungie has lost the entire PC community in exchange for the smaller Xbox group.

  • 09.11.2004 1:06 AM PDT
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I can understand that Bungie were busy with Halo 2, but I think gearbox did a poor job on Halo; the hardware requirements are insane - Why should I need a PC about 10x more powerful than the xbox just to get it to look like the xbox version?

Also, I didn't appreciate gearbox modifying the weapons, such as the pistol. Play the xbox and PC versions and it's very noticable that gearbox spead up the pistol, and made it even more overpowered.

The fuel rod is a nightmare gun, and should have stuck true to the one used by Hunters and Grunts in the campaign; charging up, instead of being a rapid-fire, extra large clipped, plasma rocket launcher.

The flamethower burns for too long as well, and it's range should have been shortened; I've been killed by it when I a fair bit outside of the fire's range.

Also, the vehicle and netcode used is extremely poor; vehicles as I'm sure everyone knows, lag very badly, and the game is often choppy, even with a ping as low as 39! (and yes all the network settings were correctly set up)

Banshees were extremely overpowered too; almost invincible to all but a few weapons, and their airborn nature made it extremely easy for 'n00bs' to run players over. Even being an expert at fighting them was no guarentee of being able to beat a player in one.

The only good think to come out of the game was the new maps (and a few extra features in CE such as mapping F2 to display the game rules), though a few of these such as Infinity were poorly designed.

Anyway, I'll end my tirade by finishing with that the Halo PC project could have been handled a lot better, and didn't get the support it deserved.

  • 09.11.2004 8:18 AM PDT
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For the sake of conversation:

Why should I need a PC about 10x more powerful than the xbox just to get it to look like the xbox version?

Because it is a port. This means that the computer has to do about 10x (number chosen to remain consistent with your example) more work to produce the same result as you'd see on an Xbox. Have you ever played a console emulator on your PC before? I imagine porting a game from Xbox to PC is much like that in terms of system resources, only on a much larger scale.

The fuel rod is a nightmare gun, and should have stuck true to the one used by Hunters and Grunts in the campaign;

I would have enjoyed that much more, too, if it had stuck true to the campaign mode. Of all the guns, this one seems the most broken, although it is only broken in certain situations. There are plenty of cases where the FRG is easily taken out without it doing much damage to you or your team. They're not the end of the world though, especially considering you can take them out of your gametype. I know, not a lot of people do -_-

Banshees were extremely overpowered too;
Banshees are easy enough to take out, whether you use pistols and shotguns, or hop in a tank to take them out. Again, they're not the end of the world, especially considering you can take them out of your gametype.

Anyway, I'll end my tirade by finishing with that the Halo PC project could have been handled a lot better, and didn't get the support it deserved.

There we go. And more specifically, support for CE. If only we could get some reaction out of the companies responsible for this game. *sigh* :) Good post, dude.

  • 09.11.2004 12:40 PM PDT
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The fuel rod is a nightmare gun, and should have stuck true to the one used by Hunters and Grunts in the campaign; charging up, instead of being a rapid-fire, extra large clipped, plasma rocket launcher.

The hunters carry the fuel rod cannon (charge up), and the grunts carry the fuel rod gun (smaller, no charge needed). HPC uses the Fuel rod gun (like the grunts), although the grunts never fire it at the full rate. IMO, what makes the FRG a problem isn't the balance itself, but the massive lag it causes. You can't defend yourself when being shot because your screen is lagging and warping like crazy while the game tries to figure out what's going on. :-( I've talked to people who played the beta (which used the Xbox's netcode for LAN, in other words no lag), and they said the FRG is actually fairly balanced because a good pistoler can kill them before they get 2-3 shots off. With Gearbox's netcode, once the FRG hits you first, you're screwed because of the horrendous lag.

It would have been cool if the FRG needed to be charged up between shots, kind of like the plasma pistol. Or even have faster, less damaging shot, but then if you want you can charge up a more powerful blast. That could have been interesting. :-)

Flamethrower isn't too bad.. just run backwards (while maybe jumping) and throw grenades at your feet. Try not to let people get close enough to use it when you're near a FT spawn point. :-)

Agreed to a point on the banshees. Not impossible to take down, but they are way too easy to rack up tons of kills, especially when there's more than one.

I'll end my tirade by finishing with that the Halo PC project could have been handled a lot better, and didn't get the support it deserved.

100% agreed. :-(

Have you ever played a console emulator on your PC before? I imagine porting a game from Xbox to PC is much like that in terms of system resources, only on a much larger scale.

Actually, emulators are slow because they are using the CPU to emulate different hardware. Sometimes totally different CPU instructions. Porting a game isn't quite the same. The game actually is running on the new hardware, as opposed to having the new hardware emulated in software. A port could be a little slower, but the difference between the PC and Xbox is absurd. Especially on the indoor levels. As I've said before, I think GB didn't bother making Bungie's indoor maps optimized because the GB employees think they are lame maps (their words, not mine).

GB: "Those are just console maps. Bungie didn't use a real level designer. These were designed by amateurs. They have no vertical element because aiming up and down on a console is too hard."

Me: "Oh no vertical element? You mean like Damnation? Or Prisoner? Boarding Action?"

GB: <awkward silence>

The credibility meter went down several notches after that...

  • 09.11.2004 6:48 PM PDT
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Yeah, Gearbox lost a lot of respect from me.

I think it would be problem solved if they let a few people make updates (which would still need to be approved by Bungie and MGS) for Halo. That way, the users themselves could improve Halo, but Bungie and MGS still must approve of the changes.

It's a win-win situation: Halo gets patched with no funds spent, and the game is transformed into a very enjoyable experience. Everyone gets what they want.

Here's my main -blam!-: It would be relatively simple to add custom map support into Halo PC. Just copy the map functions (essentially) from Halo CE into Halo PC, add a suffix (i.e. LoadMap_CE instead of LoadMap), and have one function that reads the version of the map file and sees whether it is a CE or PC map. If it's a PC map, do all the PC functions. If it is a CE map, use the CE functions.

So, Gearbox, you don't have enough money and/or time. So what? Let the users patch the game. They seem to be more dedicated to the game than you are.

[Edited on 9/11/2004 8:09:59 PM]

  • 09.11.2004 8:09 PM PDT
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Posted by:Talking Elmo
The hunters carry the fuel rod cannon (charge up), and the grunts carry the fuel rod gun (smaller, no charge needed). HPC uses the Fuel rod gun (like the grunts), although the grunts never fire it at the full rate.


Y'know.... I don't think I've ever noticed the distinction until you just pointed it out. Lol, nice. :) The only instance where I was thinking the FRG is abusive is when someone camps your base with one (yes, I'm guilty, too). One solid hit from a FRG will kill a player. When a player initially spawns and is gaining his surroundings, it is easy to hit these non-moving targets. For this reason, it is easy to control a base with an FRG for many minutes. That's the only complaint I have towards the FRG, and even that one isn't all that significant. In any other situation, it is relatively easy to take out an FRGer.

Actually, emulators are slow because they are using the CPU to emulate different hardware. Sometimes totally different CPU instructions. Porting a game isn't quite the same. The game actually is running on the new hardware, as opposed to having the new hardware emulated in software

You make too much sense, Talking Elmo! *shakes fist* ;)

I'm not familiar enough with the Xbox's architecture to know what CPU it's running, so I also don't know if there needs to be a translation in the instruction set. Do you know what the deal is? If the game is actually running on new hardware (a PC), using the modified original code (from the Xbox), is the code just not optimized for the PC? Is that the only problem? <Rhetorical Questions>In what ways was the original code modified? Was it modified from one language or API to another, or where whole routines rewritten? </Rhetorical Questions> O_o I've always wondered that.

Case in point, though: It is a port, and ports are slower than originals, whatever the reason may be. I was trying to use the emulator more as an example of what might be going on behind the scenes of a port, because emulators are something most gamers can relate to nowadays. :)

GB: "Those are just console maps....
ROFL.... that was great. Awkward silence indeed... Brings a happy tear to my eye. ;D Ah yes, if only Gearbox cared about Halo .__.


Posted by:Kybo Ren
So, Gearbox, you don't have enough money and/or time. So what? Let the users patch the game. They seem to be more dedicated to the game than you are.


What you posted couldn't be more true.

Users patching the game, while unheard of, difficult to organize, and quite unlikely to happen, would be a wonderful way to keep the game alive.

That's the thing that gets swept under the carpet in this whole patching-CE thing. The fans have put vast amounts of time and energy into CE. They've proven themselves more than capable, as programmers like you have demonstrated. The user-created fixes, tools, and maps on the CE side alone are enough to outweigh any and all work that Gearbox has done to CE (that we've seen). Shouldn't we receive a little help from the sidelines if we've shown such initiative? The player count shouldn't matter at all in my eyes, even considering things from a business standpoint. That's the only thing that irks me. When the community has shown such a will to keep things going, despite the inherent downfalls of CE, why for the love of dead puppies and pineapples has Gearbox not steped in and helped us out. We love Halo. We love Halo Custom Edition. We see the potential and the chance to expand and contribute to this universe of fun. It's so frustrating when we see our hobby being gimped by a few reluctant corporations and lack of communication. It's as though we've been waving flags, flashing lights, shooting off flares and sending out S.O.S. signals, only to watch our potential saviors cruise on right by us without so much as a nod to our existance. >_<

  • 09.11.2004 9:06 PM PDT
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Posted by: Leoht
I'm not familiar enough with the Xbox's architecture to know what CPU it's running, so I also don't know if there needs to be a translation in the instruction set. Do you know what the deal is? If the game is actually running on new hardware (a PC), using the modified original code (from the Xbox), is the code just not optimized for the PC? Is that the only problem? <Rhetorical Questions>In what ways was the original code modified? Was it modified from one language or API to another, or where whole routines rewritten? </Rhetorical Questions> O_o I've always wondered that.


I am not very familiar with the Xbox development environment, but I do know a few things.

(1): The Xbox uses an intel chip that uses the X86 instruction set -- same as your PC.
(2): I believe the API (DirectX) stayed the same. I think their main challenge was getting Halo to work on something other than a solid platform. With an Xbox, you know the constrainsts and what you can and can't do. With a PC, you need to take into account the many different types of hardware a user may have. They also added two (I think) different rendering paths, using the new pixel shader standards.
(3): The Xbox may have some routines that are not in Windows 2000 (note that the Xbox kernel is a very trimmed-down version of the Windows 2000 kernel), and vice versa. They probably needed to rewrite some parts, but I think the code didn't need much "porting".

Don't quote me on this, though.

This thread has gotten quite off-topic...

  • 09.12.2004 1:19 AM PDT
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The hunters carry the fuel rod cannon (charge up), and the grunts carry the fuel rod gun (smaller, no charge needed). HPC uses the Fuel rod gun (like the grunts), although the grunts never fire it at the full rate.

Hmm, well in the xbox version, that's certainly not the case; using the "bump character" option in the debug meni to take over the fuel-rod-carrying grunts only allows you to fire by charging up the gun (even though there's no hud)


IMO, what makes the FRG a problem isn't the balance itself, but the massive lag it causes. You can't defend yourself when being shot because your screen is lagging and warping like crazy while the game tries to figure out what's going on. :-( I've talked to people who played the beta (which used the Xbox's netcode for LAN, in other words no lag), and they said the FRG is actually fairly balanced because a good pistoler can kill them before they get 2-3 shots off. With Gearbox's netcode, once the FRG hits you first, you're screwed because of the horrendous lag.

That is one problem, and when combined with taking out vehicles ... well ... the lag gets even worse. One thing about it though is that when wielding it, it takes up about 1/2 the screen, another reason why I hate using it (apart from it being a kind of cheap weapon IMO).

Regarding the lag, I'd be surprised if gearbox did any optimisation at all ("it's not our game, so we don't give a crap"?). The netcode used is terrible (like I mentioned above, it can be laggy even with a ping as low as 39, and on a server with about the same ping).

Another major problem though is the teamkilling, especially on Bungie's servers. A much better method (and kill crediter) could probably have been developed.

GB: "Those are just console maps. Bungie didn't use a real level designer. These were designed by amateurs. They have no vertical element because aiming up and down on a console is too hard."


I also seem to remember gearbox designing games that have been widely considered on the the best console games of all time. Oh wait ...

Banshees are easy enough to take out, whether you use pistols and shotguns, or hop in a tank to take them out. Again, they're not the end of the world, especially considering you can take them out of your gametype.

It is possible using the pistol and the shotgun (from close range, obviously - one of my most successful tactics), but small arms just don't do enough damage. Unfortunately, I can't host because gearbox didn't make Halo compatible from behind a LAN; when I try and host, it displays my network IP, not my true IP. I can join games though, thankfully.

I have seen several occasions where a banshee has taken a direct hit with the rocket launcher, yet the pilot has remained almost unharmed ....

One of the main problems with CE is that what it fixes should really have been in the game in the first place - you'd expect vehicles not to lag anyway near as much as they do (though this is only moderately better in CE)

  • 09.12.2004 3:36 AM PDT
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That is one problem, and when combined with taking out vehicles ... well ... the lag gets even worse.

Waaay off topic, but it's so true. I love it when I'm in the middle of the field tearing it up, a Warthog approaches trying to run me over. I throw a frag grenade on the ground. Boom, explodes right underneath the hog, all hog occupants go flying through the air. Pretty cool, eh? Think again.

How am I rewarded for my good nade toss? The two hog occupants fly through the air, warping all over the place. I'm trying to pistol them in the air because after the nade they must be almost dead. Shouldn't be too hard.

But by the time the stupid f--ing game figures out what happened and the targets stop warping 20 feet through the air, I've already been pistoled to death by both of them shooting me. I can't defend myself because I have no idea where the server thinks they are. There goes one of my 3-4 deaths in the game. All this on a 33 ping server. Stupid f--ing lag. Gearboxed once again. :(

Sometimes I die because of stupid decisions on my part or I'm just outplayed. I can live with that--it just means I suck and need to get better. But I can't stand getting killed because of the constant warping of my targets, or because the game is too slow to figure out what's going on. #$%^&*


Edit: oops, I was going to add something real quick about fighting Banshees. Always, always aim for the underbelly. If you're in a Banshee and you see another Banshee approaching from dead ahead, instead of firing your FRG to hit him in the nose, quickly drop down 10-15 feet, aim up, and launch the fuel rod shot directly into his underside. Instant kill, if I'm not mistaken. "OMGWTFH4X!!111" ;-)

[Edited on 9/14/2004 4:35:58 AM]

  • 09.14.2004 4:31 AM PDT
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I can share your frustration TalkingElmo, having been a victim of my own excellent grenade toss several times myself.

The worst part about the netcode, is that most of the time you never know exactly where you are, and it only takes 1 time for mysterious 1000-2500 pings to occur (for no reason, I might add) before you find yourself falling to your death/pistoled/run over/etc etc.

No other game I've played has provided such inconsistant and choppy online play. Heck, I've even seen the game lag on my own LAN server, when I had a ping of 0!

  • 09.14.2004 11:38 AM PDT

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