Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Meanwhile...
  • Subject: Meanwhile...
Subject: Meanwhile...

The name's Ian, Game Designer at Whisper Game Studios, very off-and-on Bungie.net visitor and avid Bungie fan overall. Message me if you wish.

We get to find out what Ms. Halsey is up to :3

  • 06.30.2011 4:52 PM PDT

I know this isn't going to help out much, but I'm just going to say it now for all the future complainers making rage threads after the book releases.

Game canon > Book canon

Is that clear everyone? Alright.

  • 06.30.2011 4:56 PM PDT

Proud member for 4 years, and i hope many more.

B.net birthday 11.21.08

"Damn Canadians and their poppy things!"

Looks good, can't wait to read it.

  • 06.30.2011 4:57 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: EagleBurn
I know this isn't going to help out much, but I'm just going to say it now for all the future complainers making rage threads after the book releases.

Game canon > Book canon

Is that clear everyone? Alright.


1) How is that related to this discussion AT ALL?

2) That was Bungie's rule (and a stupid one at that), 343 may not be following that.

  • 06.30.2011 5:04 PM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: EagleBurn
I know this isn't going to help out much, but I'm just going to say it now for all the future complainers making rage threads after the book releases.

Game canon > Book canon

Is that clear everyone? Alright.


1) How is that related to this discussion AT ALL?

2) That was Bungie's rule (and a stupid one at that), 343 may not be following that.

343i is going to make games and consists of many Bungie employees. I promise you they will

  • 06.30.2011 5:06 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: EagleBurn

Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: EagleBurn
I know this isn't going to help out much, but I'm just going to say it now for all the future complainers making rage threads after the book releases.

Game canon > Book canon

Is that clear everyone? Alright.


1) How is that related to this discussion AT ALL?

2) That was Bungie's rule (and a stupid one at that), 343 may not be following that.

343i is going to make games and consists of many Bungie employees. I promise you they will


You can count the amount of Bungie employees in 343 on 1 hand... You do not work for 343, you cannot promise me anything.

[Edited on 06.30.2011 5:10 PM PDT]

  • 06.30.2011 5:09 PM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: EagleBurn

Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: EagleBurn
I know this isn't going to help out much, but I'm just going to say it now for all the future complainers making rage threads after the book releases.

Game canon > Book canon

Is that clear everyone? Alright.


1) How is that related to this discussion AT ALL?

2) That was Bungie's rule (and a stupid one at that), 343 may not be following that.

343i is going to make games and consists of many Bungie employees. I promise you they will


You can count the amount of Bungie employees in 343 on 1 hand... You do not work for 343, you cannot promise me anything.

Do you know what obvious rhetorical statements are. Learn it, please.

And you're silly to believe that 343i is going to let writers overcome their own ideas.

It's very simple, think of it like Star Wars.

George Lucas (Bungie) - Whatever he says, goes. Why? Because he's the creator.

Writers - Go by what the creator has created for them and adds to the story. If the creator changes the story to break the book's canon. Then the book changes, not the creator's story.

Fans - Their reaction/power

  • 06.30.2011 5:19 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: EagleBurn
And you're silly to believe that 343i is going to let writers overcome their own ideas.


Ever hear of the Halo Story Bible? Yeah, that document with an outline of where the writers want the story to go. They don't just tell a writer to write something random for Halo.

I'd also like to point out that 343 is intent on continuing the story through novels. There is a trilogy about the Forerunners and a trilogy set post-Halo 3, the novels are becoming the primary method of storytelling until the games are released and I can promise you both novel trilogies will coincide with the new game trilogy in some form or other.

It's very simple, think of it like Star Wars.

George Lucas (Bungie) - Whatever he says, goes. Why? Because he's the creator.

Writers - Go by what the creator has created for them and adds to the story. If the creator changes the story to break the book's canon. Then the book changes, not the creator's story.

Fans - Their reaction/power


Which is utterly retarded. I'm glad you picked Lucas as your example, the SW prequels show exactly why the creator(s) having complete and total control over the story is not always a good thing. Lucas had nobody to challenge him because he was in charge of everything so he came up with shyte like Midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks, the "story" turned into a cluster-blam!- of special effects and was nothing more than a poor appeal to as many different demographics as possible.

The point of the fans is not to just go along and accept everything we get, those of us who have invested time into the universe deserve to see it treated the way it should be. It's also an insult to the writers when the developers decide to go and retcon/override parts of the story for no good reason, then people back up the developers because they want to put their own spin on it all. Well I'm sorry, if that's the case why the -blam!- would they hire people to write novels and other media in the first place?

  • 06.30.2011 5:32 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias


Posted by: EagleBurn

Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: EagleBurn
I know this isn't going to help out much, but I'm just going to say it now for all the future complainers making rage threads after the book releases.

Game canon > Book canon

Is that clear everyone? Alright.


1) How is that related to this discussion AT ALL?

2) That was Bungie's rule (and a stupid one at that), 343 may not be following that.

343i is going to make games and consists of many Bungie employees. I promise you they will


Two things you're wrong about:

343 industries only have two or three ex-bungie employees, and most of 343i are passionate halo fans and experienced devs such as Pandemic and EA, also other gaming companies. Before you say like that, please do little research, it is valuable essential for supporting your statements.

Second, I doubt that 343i will follow the Bungie's steps in the canon policy because they are bit strict with the canon, which it would be likely that they will change the game canon > book canon to game canon = book canon or book canon > game canon. Although, game canon = book canon sounds better.

And one more thing for you to know, Halo: Fall of Reach novel was released in two weeks before Halo: CE was released. Just sayin'.

  • 06.30.2011 5:35 PM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: EagleBurn
And you're silly to believe that 343i is going to let writers overcome their own ideas.


Ever hear of the Halo Story Bible? Yeah, that document with an outline of where the writers want the story to go. They don't just tell a writer to write something random for Halo.

I'd also like to point out that 343 is intent on continuing the story through novels. There is a trilogy about the Forerunners and a trilogy set post-Halo 3, the novels are becoming the primary method of storytelling until the games are released and I can promise you both novel trilogies will coincide with the new game trilogy in some form or other.

It's very simple, think of it like Star Wars.

George Lucas (Bungie) - Whatever he says, goes. Why? Because he's the creator.

Writers - Go by what the creator has created for them and adds to the story. If the creator changes the story to break the book's canon. Then the book changes, not the creator's story.

Fans - Their reaction/power


Which is utterly retarded. I'm glad you picked Lucas as your example, the SW prequels show exactly why the creator(s) having complete and total control over the story is not always a good thing. Lucas had nobody to challenge him because he was in charge of everything so he came up with shyte like Midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks, the "story" turned into a cluster-blam!- of special effects and was nothing more than a poor appeal to as many different demographics as possible.

The point of the fans is not to just go along and accept everything we get, those of us who have invested time into the universe deserve to see it treated the way it should be. It's also an insult to the writers when the developers decide to go and retcon/override parts of the story for no good reason, then people back up the developers because they want to put their own spin on it all. Well I'm sorry, if that's the case why the -blam!- would they hire people to write novels and other media in the first place?

I understand why you think it's unfair. But you have to realize that without Bungie, they wouldn't have a story to write about in the first place. So when Bungie wants something changed, the writers need to respect that. Not the other way around.

Yes, the books are awesome, but without Bungie, a Halo universe wouldn't even exists. So we need to respect any changes they want to their own story.

[Edited on 06.30.2011 5:38 PM PDT]

  • 06.30.2011 5:37 PM PDT


Posted by: raganok99


And one more thing for you to know, Halo: Fall of Reach novel was released in two weeks before Halo: CE was released. Just sayin'.

I don't even know what to say to this. The Fall of Reach was purely made to hype up Halo: CE. The Halo: CE story was already made before Nylund even started the book.

This is obvious information, please do little research, it is valuable essential for supporting your statements.

[Edited on 06.30.2011 5:47 PM PDT]

  • 06.30.2011 5:44 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: EagleBurn

Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: EagleBurn
And you're silly to believe that 343i is going to let writers overcome their own ideas.


Ever hear of the Halo Story Bible? Yeah, that document with an outline of where the writers want the story to go. They don't just tell a writer to write something random for Halo.

I'd also like to point out that 343 is intent on continuing the story through novels. There is a trilogy about the Forerunners and a trilogy set post-Halo 3, the novels are becoming the primary method of storytelling until the games are released and I can promise you both novel trilogies will coincide with the new game trilogy in some form or other.

It's very simple, think of it like Star Wars.

George Lucas (Bungie) - Whatever he says, goes. Why? Because he's the creator.

Writers - Go by what the creator has created for them and adds to the story. If the creator changes the story to break the book's canon. Then the book changes, not the creator's story.

Fans - Their reaction/power


Which is utterly retarded. I'm glad you picked Lucas as your example, the SW prequels show exactly why the creator(s) having complete and total control over the story is not always a good thing. Lucas had nobody to challenge him because he was in charge of everything so he came up with shyte like Midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks, the "story" turned into a cluster-blam!- of special effects and was nothing more than a poor appeal to as many different demographics as possible.

The point of the fans is not to just go along and accept everything we get, those of us who have invested time into the universe deserve to see it treated the way it should be. It's also an insult to the writers when the developers decide to go and retcon/override parts of the story for no good reason, then people back up the developers because they want to put their own spin on it all. Well I'm sorry, if that's the case why the -blam!- would they hire people to write novels and other media in the first place?

I understand why you think it's unfair. But you have to realize that without Bungie, they wouldn't have a story to write about in the first place. So when Bungie wants something changed, the writers need to respect that. Not the other way around.

Yes, the books are awesome, but without Bungie, a Halo universe wouldn't even exists. So we need to respect any changes they want to their own story.


I can respect a change done for a good reason that's well justified. But Reach? 'twas truly the Phantom Menace of the Halo series, it's almost mind boggling at how complex the awfulness of that game was. It wasn't even necessary, we had 2 novels dedicated to the battle of Reach, why do we need a game that changes a perfectly good story for one that drags itself over a month with sterile, one dimensional, archetypal characters? There was no justification for that at all.

"Brevity is the soul of wit," said Shakespeare as he put down his Xbox controller and sighed. "Where-for art thou common sense?" he wondered in amazement as Bungie completely ignored everything they did right with ODST's story which they could have easily implemented into the game. Yes, the "flashback" missions.

Reach would have benefitted by having you switch perspectives between Red/Blue Team and follow the course of the novel. They could even have you playing as some ONI spec-ops field agent or a Sangheili returning to Reach and reliving the battle the same way the Rookie did in ODST. That's the way to get your audience emotionally involved, by showing something that's broken and explaining how it happened by living the experience. I see the ONI tower in ODST for the first time and various other visual clues which leave you asking questions, it's a principal rule in getting your audience to appreciate the experience.

This is what made Halo CE great too. People complain about the backtracking missions in the second half of the game but it's showing the result of your actions which led to things. It creates drama, the anticipation of how events converge is what makes a game exciting - like when John and Thel had their storylines converge on the Gravemind in the Library.

I look at Reach and see all the things it could have been, that is what disappoints me most. The story could have been brilliant in such a simple way, but it wasn't...

  • 06.30.2011 5:55 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias


Posted by: EagleBurn

Posted by: raganok99


And one more thing for you to know, Halo: Fall of Reach novel was released in two weeks before Halo: CE was released. Just sayin'.

I don't even know what to say to this. The Fall of Reach was purely made to hype up Halo: CE. The Halo: CE story was already made before Nylund even started the book.

This is obvious information, please do little research, it is valuable essential for supporting your statements.


Well, so?

You're still wrong on the 343i having many bungie employees.

And I already posted my opinion that 343i will change the canon policy. Wait and see, it will happen. :)

And why you think that you would post like that game canon > book canon stuff? It is irrelevant to the topic.

  • 06.30.2011 5:57 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

That is an awesome picture. It would look better if their head were closer, but I think that would defeat the purpose of it.

  • 06.30.2011 9:39 PM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
Ever hear of the Halo Story Bible? Yeah, that document with an outline of where the writers want the story to go. They don't just tell a writer to write something random for Halo.

I'd also like to point out that 343 is intent on continuing the story through novels. There is a trilogy about the Forerunners and a trilogy set post-Halo 3, the novels are becoming the primary method of storytelling until the games are released and I can promise you both novel trilogies will coincide with the new game trilogy in some form or other.


We actually don't know that much about how the writing process for the books works, we know some of the information comes from the Halo Story Bible, but there is some that comes from the writer too. Like we know that a lot of Cryptum and the other parts of the Forerunner saga have come from Greg Bear's imagination. And IIRC Nylund introduced a lot of his own ideas into TFoR. Eagle is right though, it's silly to believe that 343i will let the ideas and works of other supersede their own.

Which is utterly retarded. I'm glad you picked Lucas as your example, the SW prequels show exactly why the creator(s) having complete and total control over the story is not always a good thing. Lucas had nobody to challenge him because he was in charge of everything so he came up with shyte like Midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks, the "story" turned into a cluster-blam!- of special effects and was nothing more than a poor appeal to as many different demographics as possible.

The point of the fans is not to just go along and accept everything we get, those of us who have invested time into the universe deserve to see it treated the way it should be. It's also an insult to the writers when the developers decide to go and retcon/override parts of the story for no good reason, then people back up the developers because they want to put their own spin on it all. Well I'm sorry, if that's the case why the -blam!- would they hire people to write novels and other media in the first place?


There is nothing at all wrong with the story of the Star Wars Prequels. George Lucas' directions for filming the story he wrote may have sucked, but the story itself is fine. The only real problems with the Prequel Trilogy is the overreliance on CGI sets and the acting is a little flat at times because of poor direction. The words and ideas of a story's creator (as long as they still own it of course or have creative control) should ALWAYS take supreme authority over anyone else's.

Actually yes, that's part of being a fan, accepting whatever the creator/writers do with the story. You don't have to like it, but you have to accept that whatever they say goes. Like there's a particular book series that I really liked, except for the last book in the series, I really don't like the direction the writer took it in, but I'm not going to say he sucks or that what he wrote should be changed because I don't like the direction the story went in, I have to accept that it's canon. I can't say I have much experience in fanbases where the story has been retconned (Halo is the only one I can think of at the moment) but all the changes were for the better in regards to the story, I've stated my position for why Reach presents the battle better than in TFoR so I will not go into it here. But that's the reason for every retcon in a story, the writers think their changes will make the story better, the fans may not agree or like it, but ultimately they have no choice but to suck it up and move on.

  • 06.30.2011 10:27 PM PDT


Posted by:

Game canon > Book canon

Is that clear everyone? Alright.


Not when the game is Reach. How can you not see the clear middle finger Bungie gave the hardcore Halo fans, as they walked out the door? We have a story we all know and love for 10 years and they do that to us?
Whatever.

F.y.i. 343 can do whatever the heck they want now. Why are you giving orders to everyone? Are you the new president of Halo?

  • 06.30.2011 10:38 PM PDT

We fight for that which is lost in the hope that what is lost can be found.


Posted by: EagleBurn
I know this isn't going to help out much, but I'm just going to say it now for all the future complainers making rage threads after the book releases.

Game canon > Book canon

Is that clear everyone? Alright.


In the case of Halo, book canon compliments game canon. Except with Halo Reach, I dunno what the -blam!- happened to that story. Multiplayer was pretty good tho.

  • 07.01.2011 1:14 AM PDT


Posted by: falcon8134

Posted by:

Game canon > Book canon

Is that clear everyone? Alright.


Not when the game is Reach. How can you not see the clear middle finger Bungie gave the hardcore Halo fans, as they walked out the door? We have a story we all know and love for 10 years and they do that to us?
Whatever.

F.y.i. 343 can do whatever the heck they want now. Why are you giving orders to everyone? Are you the new president of Halo?


*sigh* Comments like this are so stupid -.- Reach was not any sort of "middle finger" to any body >_< I know several hardcore Halo fans (in real life and here on the forums) who are just fine with Reach. And the game and the book can, and do, perfectly co-exist, both Bungie and 343i have made that perfectly clear. There are still a few kinks in the works that need to be cleared up, but it's not that urgently needs "Word of God" to fix it. They will be fixed eventually, and if it worries you that much, come up with your own explanations as many other Halo fans have done.

Yeah, sure, 343i can do whatever they want, but I don't think they're going to be declaring Reach non-canon or anything, they've made it perfectly clear that they regard it as canon. And it will always be game canon>book canon until 343i says otherwise, and I've seen no indication that they're intending to change that, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" as the saying goes. The rules for canon hierarchy back when the games and books first started coming out are just fine, perhaps they could use a bit more clarity, but the rules themselves are fine. I see no reason for 343i to change them, nor do I see any indication of an intention to do so.

  • 07.01.2011 10:06 AM PDT