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Subject: Dear REACH Haters.


Posted by: Ric0chetSniper
Why don't you just have as the OP, "Why are you here?"

what is OP?

  • 07.01.2011 6:04 PM PDT

I like Call of Duty and Gears of War, AND Halo. Why must everyone else like only one or the other?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I remember that thousands are launched, the UNSC orbital defenses fire, and HUNDREDS make it to the poles.

Then suddenly high command is completely overrun is less then 2 hours later. There is no mention or any defense ground action, at all.

No, I'm not saying the game is better then the book, but saying "UNSC is tactically retarded in Halo Reach!" is true for the book as well.

Honestly, why are we arguing over these things. Bungie considers both canon. 343 considers both canon. Waypoint videos describing the battle use BOTH book and game events.

It's pretty damn clear they connect, we might not know exactly how, but it's clear to me.

Edit: Sorry for the raging tone, has not been a good day for me so I'm kinda just exploding.


No need to apologize. Anyway, the reason so many of us are arguing over these things is because some of us just don't see how the two tales of Reach's fall connect in any kind of logical way. Because as clear as it is to you that they connect, it's just as clear to some of us that there's no way they can possibly connect as is.

Quite frankly, I wish they did connect. Hell, I would've accepted a new Definitive Edition of Fall of Reach that made changes to make the book fit with the game. (It wouldn't have made the game's campaign any more fun to me, but at least I'd be able to accept it as canon and another part of the story surrounding Reach's destruction) But they didn't. They kept the story we've had since before Halo 1's release.

But anyway, I don't wish to continue this debate. Others here are already doing that far better than I can, and I really don't want to reread the account of Reach's fall right now to have all the facts from the books fresh in my memory just so I can be better equipped to continue the debate.

  • 07.01.2011 6:10 PM PDT
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Imagine a triangle. It's perfect, but a little plain. You take a chisel, and carve a small decorative symbol into it to make it a little more interesting. People like it, but it could use a little more.

So you then take a sledgehammer..

Slow and unbalanced gameplay, in a nutshell.

Oh and retcons.

[Edited on 07.01.2011 6:14 PM PDT]

  • 07.01.2011 6:12 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.

Whoops, posted this part as an edit to an older post by mistake, but...

While reading through The Fall of Reach I came across the whole Pearl Harbor comparison that was made by the person in charge of Fermion station.

In the book, despite the warning, Reach still was essentially a Pearl Harbor. The UNSC got caught with their pants down and were unprepared to truly stave off a surprise visit from the Covenant who have passed up on several human worlds that come before Reach both in space and on the ground. The UNSC never imagined that the Covenant had so many ships considering General Strauss reaction in First Strike, with with a meek 20 guns and 150 ships there simply would be no way to hold off that many Covenant ships that came all at once. On the ground, fortifications were not even set up proper by the time the Covies came down. Again in First Strike it's apparent by the way that the concrete bunkers defending the generators haven't even dried completely yet in addition to other factors such as the air force not mustering immediately and effectively.

Meanwhile in the game the UNSC was aware of Covenant detection a month in advance, and decided to squander their time deploying forces, erecting defenses, and reinforcing their position. Sure there was the hunt for the source of the Covenant forces that first appeared in Visegrad, yet High Command doesn't ring in the whistle to reinforce the planet till after the Long Night of Solace makes an appearance. Sword Base is a nice example to look at from a microlevel of the entire Battle of Reach. Sure the Covenant have just been found at Visegrad a few days earlier, and sure communications have gone haywire. But c'mon now. How is it that the no one visibly saw the Corvette approaching Sword Base at a slow relatively snail like pace from a distance in the horizon. There's a lot of chatter in the level about the importance of getting Longswords into the air, but doesn't it strike anyone odd how they weren't mustered in the time spent waiting for that Corvette to approach weapons range? Or that the base managed to deploy its fleet of Falcons to engage the Banshees either before or during the attack (never shown to be before or after but point is they're up by the time you get their) but not the Longswords of great importance?

  • 07.01.2011 6:15 PM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553


Posted by: StealthSlasher2
Whoops, posted this part as an edit to an older post by mistake, but...

While reading through The Fall of Reach I came across the whole Pearl Harbor comparison that was made by the person in charge of Fermion station.

In the book, despite the warning, Reach still was essentially a Pearl Harbor. The UNSC got caught with their pants down and were unprepared to truly stave off a surprise visit from the Covenant who have passed up on several human worlds that come before Reach both in space and on the ground. The UNSC never imagined that the Covenant had so many ships considering General Strauss reaction in First Strike, with with a meek 20 guns and 150 ships there simply would be no way to hold off that many Covenant ships that came all at once. On the ground, fortifications were not even set up proper by the time the Covies came down. Again in First Strike it's apparent by the way that the concrete bunkers defending the generators haven't even dried completely yet in addition to other factors such as the air force not mustering immediately and effectively.

Meanwhile in the game the UNSC was aware of Covenant detection a month in advance, and decided to squander their time deploying forces, erecting defenses, and reinforcing their position. Sure there was the hunt for the source of the Covenant forces that first appeared in Visegrad, yet High Command doesn't ring in the whistle to reinforce the planet till after the Long Night of Solace makes an appearance. Sword Base is a nice example to look at from a microlevel of the entire Battle of Reach. Sure the Covenant have just been found at Visegrad a few days earlier, and sure communications have gone haywire. But c'mon now. How is it that the no one visibly saw the Corvette approaching Sword Base at a slow relatively snail like pace from a distance in the horizon. There's a lot of chatter in the level about the importance of getting Longswords into the air, but doesn't it strike anyone odd how they weren't mustered in the time spent waiting for that Corvette to approach weapons range? Or that the base managed to deploy its fleet of Falcons to engage the Banshees either before or during the attack (never shown to be before or after but point is they're up by the time you get their) but not the Longswords of great importance?


In a nutshell.

The campaign is utterly stupid :)

EDIT: Though on a different note, i don't mind these sort of things, they are made for story telling purposes. (There are tonnes of these instances in previous Halos).

The fact is the campaign is poorly written.

[Edited on 07.01.2011 6:23 PM PDT]

  • 07.01.2011 6:21 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: The Elite Elite
I admit, it has been a while since I've read FoR and FS, but I don't recall either one particularly describing the ground side of the battle much at all aside from the Spartans. So we don't know what the UNSC threw at the dropships coming in. And given that there were over 300 covenant ships according to Cortana (or over 700 if you go by the 2010 edition of FoR) I'd say that's likely a large number of dropships to deal with.


I remember that thousands are launched, the UNSC orbital defenses fire, and HUNDREDS make it to the poles.

Then suddenly high command is completely overrun is less then 2 hours later. There is no mention or any defense ground action, at all.

No, I'm not saying the game is better then the book, but saying "UNSC is tactically retarded in Halo Reach!" is true for the book as well.

Honestly, why are we arguing over these things. Bungie considers both canon. 343 considers both canon. Waypoint videos describing the battle use BOTH book and game events.

It's pretty damn clear they connect, we might not know exactly how, but it's clear to me.

Edit: Sorry for the raging tone, has not been a good day for me so I'm kinda just exploding.


You have to understand that the UNSC did not not notice the dropships slip by and the fact the entire attack was a surprise.

not to mention the generators that were covered were overrun seeing how *dozens* of ships getting by can add up to a rough hundred in which you would have a few thousand covenant on the ground, including vehicle support being in the hundreds.

imagine what damage 300 wraiths could do realistically.


Not to mention any other waves or even full sized ships that managed to land.

You have to remember that the scene where a few hundred dropships make landfall was witnessed by Captain Keyes. The entire space battle was from Keyes' perspective. He didn't have a god's-eye view of the entire battle; a lot was going on we didn't see.

We know that when the Covenant started to get closer to Earth in Halo 2, at least one ship ran for it and charged clean through the defenses. Who's to say they didn't do that at Reach?

So to say HIGHCOM and the generators were destroyed by only a few dozen dropships is foolish.

  • 07.01.2011 6:46 PM PDT

mendicantVOTARY
Votary of the I AM

Magyar ODST 19th Shock Troops Battalion

To be totally honest? Because all I've ever wanted since H:CE was an online version on H:CE multiplayer.

Halo:Anniversary fail.... sigh...

  • 07.01.2011 6:49 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: The Elite Elite
I admit, it has been a while since I've read FoR and FS, but I don't recall either one particularly describing the ground side of the battle much at all aside from the Spartans. So we don't know what the UNSC threw at the dropships coming in. And given that there were over 300 covenant ships according to Cortana (or over 700 if you go by the 2010 edition of FoR) I'd say that's likely a large number of dropships to deal with.


I remember that thousands are launched, the UNSC orbital defenses fire, and HUNDREDS make it to the poles.

Then suddenly high command is completely overrun is less then 2 hours later. There is no mention or any defense ground action, at all.

No, I'm not saying the game is better then the book, but saying "UNSC is tactically retarded in Halo Reach!" is true for the book as well.

Honestly, why are we arguing over these things. Bungie considers both canon. 343 considers both canon. Waypoint videos describing the battle use BOTH book and game events.

It's pretty damn clear they connect, we might not know exactly how, but it's clear to me.

Edit: Sorry for the raging tone, has not been a good day for me so I'm kinda just exploding.


You have to understand that the UNSC did not not notice the dropships slip by and the fact the entire attack was a surprise.

not to mention the generators that were covered were overrun seeing how *dozens* of ships getting by can add up to a rough hundred in which you would have a few thousand covenant on the ground, including vehicle support being in the hundreds.

imagine what damage 300 wraiths could do realistically.


Not to mention any other waves or even full sized ships that managed to land.

You have to remember that the scene where a few hundred dropships make landfall was witnessed by Captain Keyes. The entire space battle was from Keyes' perspective. He didn't have a god's-eye view of the entire battle; a lot was going on we didn't see.

We know that when the Covenant started to get closer to Earth in Halo 2, at least one ship ran for it and charged clean through the defenses. Who's to say they didn't do that at Reach?

So to say HIGHCOM and the generators were destroyed by only a few dozen dropships is foolish.


If the number added up to 100 plus dropships than we are talking about 2-3 thousand troops with 2-3 hundred vehicle support.

that is more than enough for any un-prepared UNSC ground force

  • 07.01.2011 6:53 PM PDT

We're never what we invent or intend.


Posted by: cameo_cream


Nevertheless. What happens to the Chief huh? [/quote]

If the Cole protocol is enacted, that NAV data would not exist. So what would be the point of him taking a fire-team to that orbital station. Thus he would go ground-side with the rest of red team and die having no way back to the PoA. Making the events of all other games to not exist.

Stop trying to defend the game. It fails in every aspect, you can't honestly think the campaign was legit or any good?

The level design was pathetic, a five year old could have written better missions than Reach.
If you've ever read TFoR, its specifically stated that the yacht Circumference, docked at Spacedock Gamma, was an ONI ship dressed up as a civilian yacht, as was thus isolated from the dockmaster AI. The AI couldn't access and wipe the NAV database aboard the Cirfumference because it was encoded by ONI.

However, the dockmaster still detected the database, as it knew that the yacht was docked there and had an unsecured NAV database, it just didn't have the clearance to access and delete said data. Hence, John, James, and Linda get sent to SDG to enact the Cole Protocol and wipe it clean.

  • 07.01.2011 8:35 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Adragalus

Posted by: cameo_cream


Nevertheless. What happens to the Chief huh? [/quote]

If the Cole protocol is enacted, that NAV data would not exist. So what would be the point of him taking a fire-team to that orbital station. Thus he would go ground-side with the rest of red team and die having no way back to the PoA. Making the events of all other games to not exist.

Stop trying to defend the game. It fails in every aspect, you can't honestly think the campaign was legit or any good?

The level design was pathetic, a five year old could have written better missions than Reach.
If you've ever read TFoR, its specifically stated that the yacht Circumference, docked at Spacedock Gamma, was an ONI ship dressed up as a civilian yacht, as was thus isolated from the dockmaster AI. The AI couldn't access and wipe the NAV database aboard the Cirfumference because it was encoded by ONI.

However, the dockmaster still detected the database, as it knew that the yacht was docked there and had an unsecured NAV database, it just didn't have the clearance to access and delete said data. Hence, John, James, and Linda get sent to SDG to enact the Cole Protocol and wipe it clean.


If you've read closely you'll know the reason why it was isolated was because Cortana was snooping around ONI's files for information on the Spartan project other other miscellaneous info. That happens on August 29th before the Covenant attack. So yes, the data remained unchecked until the Covenant made a move for Gamma station and Keyes realized there was intact Nav data there unpurged despite the Cole Protocol in effect.

Now in Halo Reach guess what? Covies are discovered on the 24th of July. The force behind it being discovered on the 12th, and a large Covenant taskforce arriving on the 14th. Cole Protocol will have been in effect since at least the 24th when Winter Contingency was declared within the UNSC. So the plausibility of the Circumference still having its NAV data intact for a good month plus a few days now becomes highly implausible.

  • 07.01.2011 8:51 PM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

It took something great (The Fall of Reach) and put out complete crap. It broke canon and, on top of that, had a crappy story in its place. It felt like a bad side-story. The whole campaign was supposed to be an invasion. I can honestly say I did not feel invaded even once during the whole campaign. I felt more invaded in the highway mission in ODST. They're were carriers in low orbit, glassing. It was realistic. Not Reach, though. Also, everything was small scale. There wasn't really anything too large scale. In Halo 3, The Ark, I remember riding the tank and fighting Wraiths, Choppers, Infantry, then bam...Scarab comes in. Or The Covenant where you fight two Scarabs in the Hornet and they have Ghosts and Chieftans. It was awesome. Felt like a large scale epic battle. Then, Reach is all small scale and Bungie boasted how they had twice the AI! Well...where was that? There was no sense of global battle. It was overall a disgrace to Halo...

  • 07.01.2011 9:02 PM PDT

Taylor Gang! 420

Lol funner needs to be a word, I DECLARE IT! :D

  • 07.02.2011 7:29 AM PDT

Taylor Gang! 420

Well said I agree with you lol

  • 07.02.2011 7:32 AM PDT

My YouTube Channel
Bungiepedia Page

"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Campaign

- Boring.
- Story was full of plot holes.
- Characters were very cliche and boring.
- That same "epicness" regarding the amount of enemy AI, that's been promised since Halo 3, only managed to manifest itself in the far off background, where it was kind of irrelevant. (For all we know, it was an animated sky box, if that's possible.)

Multiplayer

- No TrueSkill in online MP.
- Maps, rather than being original, took a page out of every other recent FPS franchise's book and were directly taken from campaign.
- Map design. (One word: Boneyard)




[Edited on 07.02.2011 8:34 AM PDT]

  • 07.02.2011 8:33 AM PDT


Posted by: Dustin 6047
Okay, there are so many people to yell at I can't. So I will just say that a lot of these "canon errors" aren't actually errors. Bungie just didn't tell us everything that happened and that's pretty obvious. The invasion of Reach was filled with lots of battles and skirmishes. The UNSC airforce probably had it's runways and bunkers glassed which weakened the defenses greatly. Also it says in the books that command centers were attacked first so that would make uniting the entire Reach defense difficult. And that Super Carrier, it was definenty out of range of the S-MACs and it was probably to powerful to take head on. I bet (and also implied) that a number of ships attacked it the first day of being revield hence, why there were no ships with nukes available. So to get back to my point, a lot of (s)hit happened that month and Bungie can't say it all. There are no canon errors, just missing information.

And people who are saying that they hate Reach because of armor abilities, I think you are just trying to find bad things to say about the game. You say sprint is bad for the stupidest reason. Evade and jetpack too are all actually fine. All they are, are different ways of moving around the map which contrary to what you said, actually speeds up and increases the quality of gameplay. The other AA aren't bad either but since they actually do more than just applying more manuverability tactics, I can see why you don't like them, but really you are just trying to say bad things about a game that was all in all great. Every multiplayer out there has bad aspects to it, but that's the communities fault, not the developers. The developers create the game, but the community makes it better.


OK, if you think your all that, tell us what's good about the game.

The Muliplayer is utter -blam!-.
I could create better weapon balance if I were on PCP.

The Armour Lock is cheap as hell... whoever came up that Idea probably was on PCP.

The skill gap is as wide as Justin Bieber's -blam!-.

Before I go on a complete rant let's just say this: Overall the game is slow paced and unbalanced, and anyone who says it's not is just riding Bungie's -blam!-.

H2 was the best Halo ever.


Posted by: Dustin 6047
Okay, there are so many people to yell at I can't.

I had to laugh at this.

Maybe instead of taking everyone's opinions up the butt, you should stop trying to argue with everybody and relies we all have valid points.

[Edited on 07.02.2011 9:10 AM PDT]

  • 07.02.2011 8:56 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Don't attack dustin,coma,snake or other intelligent members that defend reach. they are simply trying to make the best of both and we need balance. disagree with them and argue all night,yes, but don't directly attack them as if they are trolls.

[Edited on 07.02.2011 8:59 AM PDT]

  • 07.02.2011 8:59 AM PDT


Posted by: Primo84
- Maps, rather than being original, took a page out of every other recent FPS franchise's book and were directly taken from campaign.


Actually, if you bothered to watch the vidocs/read the information, the MP maps were made first, then put into the campaign. Not the other way around.


Posted by: redwolf817
Before I go on a complete rant let's just say this: Overall the game is slow paced and unbalanced, and anyone who says it's not is just riding Bungie's -blam!-.

H2 was the best Halo ever.


*Sigh* I don't see how it's so incredibly slow in MP.

Also, Halo 2 was the buggiest/had most glitches halo ever.

Edit: Truth grey, truth...

Hell, I've even admitted certain things I cannot explain/think of an explanation for in the campaign.

[Edited on 07.02.2011 9:03 AM PDT]

  • 07.02.2011 9:00 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

AAs slow down the game alot, so did equipment in halo 3 but not this much.

Kill times in HCE and halo 2 were fast when you actually fought, other than that the games were far more strategic

  • 07.02.2011 9:02 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101
AAs slow down the game alot, so did equipment in halo 3 but not this much.

Kill times in HCE and halo 2 were fast when you actually fought, other than that the games were far more strategic


Meh. Might just be me, but sometimes it sounds like people describe kill times as being massive when they aren't.

  • 07.02.2011 9:05 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: grey101
AAs slow down the game alot, so did equipment in halo 3 but not this much.

Kill times in HCE and halo 2 were fast when you actually fought, other than that the games were far more strategic


Meh. Might just be me, but sometimes it sounds like people describe kill times as being massive when they aren't.


I shouldn't even have to explain AL

try killing somebody then they sprint/evade away, which increases the time spent trying to kill them.

Jet pack isn't too bad since you always have a clear shot

  • 07.02.2011 9:07 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: grey101
AAs slow down the game alot, so did equipment in halo 3 but not this much.

Kill times in HCE and halo 2 were fast when you actually fought, other than that the games were far more strategic



Meh. Might just be me, but sometimes it sounds like people describe kill times as being massive when they aren't.
They provide a feel in the game, I liked Halo 2 so much because of the feel it provided.Haven't you woundered how the game could have so many glitches and still be so Playable? It was fast-paced and when you weren't in MM some of those glitches were insanely fun.

[Edited on 07.02.2011 9:22 AM PDT]

  • 07.02.2011 9:21 AM PDT

Favorite video game series: Professor Layton or Half-Life
Favorite video game: Super Mario Galaxy
Favorite movie series: Pixar (It's not really a series, but I just can't pick.)
Favorite movie: Inception

Because they can't accept that Halo, which as we all know is up there with Shakespeare in terms of story, was retconned at a few minor points. You know, like how long the Battle of Reach was. Critical stuff.

  • 07.02.2011 9:22 AM PDT

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