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Subject: Why is the Covenant so stupid?

Whenever a phantom come down and try to kill master chief or noble six, it lands, and the covenant come out and fight. Why not stay in the phantom, and just bomb the tits out of whoever they want to kill? I mean seriously, we've had that strategy since world war -blam!- one

  • 07.01.2011 10:16 PM PDT

That wouldn't make for good game play though. In games strategy takes a backseat for good gameplay. I mean surely the covenant could of sent their entire force and slaughter alpha base once they learned of it's position but then the Halo Trilogy wouldn't of happened.

  • 07.01.2011 10:19 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
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John would probably hi-jack it I guess.
Easily. Just get a few jumps, get on top and force your entry inside.

  • 07.02.2011 1:24 AM PDT

Yes, there're too many numbers in my name.

Because if all of the enemies stay in one place, then it would be easier to wipe them out.

  • 07.02.2011 1:47 AM PDT

The tide is turning, brothers! Let us take our kingdom back!

Cause that's what dropships do. They drop things off.

  • 07.02.2011 4:19 AM PDT

Posted by: Sniffy66
That wouldn't make for good game play though. In games strategy takes a backseat for good gameplay. I mean surely the covenant could of sent their entire force and slaughter alpha base once they learned of it's position but then the Halo Trilogy wouldn't of happened.

Posted by: OfTheBloodguard
Cause that's what dropships do. They drop things off.

  • 07.02.2011 6:53 AM PDT

Taylor Gang! 420

I lol'd at this haha

  • 07.02.2011 7:21 AM PDT

hi

why is you not using proper grammer?

  • 07.02.2011 7:29 AM PDT
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The world will be ours Septacons.


Featured: Brute Pimp!

Proof!


Posted by: adaben
why is you not using proper grammer?

LOL.

I hope you are kidding with that question... Dear Zeus...

  • 07.02.2011 7:31 AM PDT
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Well, I wonder why in our times soldiers are deployed to secure area - it would be easier to bombard whole area and kill everything than invade that area.
I think that if you would be in charge of Covies, you would probably destroy humanity before they would know who attacked them - not mentioning that many artifacts would be destroyed during your attacks :P

Covenant has other strategies than humans - Elites prefer CQB than long and middle range fight. Covies weapons are designed for close quarters.
In my opinion it depends of traditions, past military history. Humans developed their strategies during constant wars (in past 2000 years only in Europe there was in total only 100 years without wars). Covenant developed their strategies during San 'Shyuum - Sangheili (Prophets - Elites) war. Later they changed a little their way of fighting when incorporating other races - especially Mgalekgolo (Hunters), Kig-Yar (Jackals) and Jiralhanae (Brutes).

By the way, never say that Covenant is stupid, never offend any of Covenant race if you don't know anything about them.
Sun Tzu said once, that ignoring your opponent and his strategy, way of thinking is a simple way to lose a war.
Learn more about races of the Covenant

  • 07.02.2011 1:36 PM PDT

They are stupid but Master Chief is too good for them anyway.

  • 07.02.2011 1:37 PM PDT
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Why you think they are stupid?
Could you explain?

  • 07.02.2011 1:39 PM PDT

the covenant probably had its first teleporter when we first invented the computer

  • 07.02.2011 1:51 PM PDT
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When humans started agricultural age, Sangheili build their Cruiser (also known as Covenant Cruiser) and this one was based native technology of Elites.
Later Elites gave away their scientific development to San'Shyuum and become protectors of Prophets.

Any of you remember battle above the Ark? Brutes outnumbered Elites 3 to 1 and this was equal fight. This shows Elites skill in warship.

Well, you may say that grunts are stupid, but as I remember they learned all human languages listening to UNSC communication systems. They also learned Huragok gestures language. In battle they may panic in front of Master Chief, same goes sometimes for Marines in front of Brutes, Elites or Hunters (in Halo: Reach you can see how UNSC troopers are running away from Hunters).

Some one can say: Brutes are stupid. Well, Jiralhanae can speak in many languages (also human languages), they were very advanced race - they many times reached up to Tier 4 (http://www.halopedian.com/Technological_Achievement_Tiers), but because of their violent nature when in 2492 Covenant incorporated them, they rediscovered radio and rocketry (Tier 6). Sometimes they greatly remind humans.

Well, if they are stupid then what about humans?

  • 07.02.2011 3:01 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Kili
When humans started agricultural age, Sangheili build their Cruiser (also known as Covenant Cruiser) and this one was based native technology of Elites.
Later Elites gave away their scientific development to San'Shyuum and become protectors of Prophets.

If a person was born in 1930 and was learning quantum physics when Professor Stephen Hawking was only in primary school at that time, does that automatically make him an innately smarter person than Hawking? No it does not. All you can say is that the person born in 1930 started before Hawking. Later, Hawking would become one of the smartest Human beings alive, so what you are saying is not true in the slightest. The Sangheili are an older race. It is obvious that they are going to have earlier developments. However this does not necessarily make then smarter. They simply evolved earlier.

Posted by: Kili
Any of you remember battle above the Ark? Brutes outnumbered Elites 3 to 1 and this was equal fight. This shows Elites skill in warship.

Rtas is uncharacteristic of Elites in general it appears. Are we holding the skills of one Elite as an accurate representation of 9 billion? That is a generalisation based on a ridiculously small sample set. I must admit, it was not strictly speaking totally equal in terms of ship quality. Elite ships had technology that could disperse plasma to a limited degree, so the Brutes weaponry would be less effective overall. The Brutes did not know how to fully utilise this technology yet.

Posted by: Kili
Well, if they are stupid then what about humans?

Looking at the Elites only:

They believe that your honour is in your blood, and that losing it is dishonourable. How on earth your moral choices are affected in the long term by blood loss is nothing short of ridiculous superstition. Superstition that many are willing to go berserk for and kill themselves over.

They believe that children and relatives should be held accountable for the errors and actions of other family members. How is about I kill you because your Dad gets fired? Not very enlightened, is it? Nope.

How is about their religion? Almost their entire species believes in this ridiculous religion in which the flaws are everywhere. If they are the Forerunners descendants, then why does Forerunner technology refuse to open up to the Covenant? If they are the descendants, then why do the Lumeneries of every Covenant vessel identify the Humans as such? Not to mention all the "classical" issues with religion in general. This has went on for at least 3000 years...

Shall we go into their imitative nature and truncated sense of foresight?

They may not be totally stupid, but they are not competent compared to Humanity. Halsey even suspects this early on in the war from their behaviour, writing that she doubts their "superior intellect", so it is written into the canon.

  • 07.02.2011 3:52 PM PDT
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Sangheili are not older race than humans. You missed first use of Halo array which destroyed all sentient life forms in Galaxy. At the same time all life was reseed from the Ark.

Rtas wasn't alone against Brutes, he lead a fleet and ordered to "fire at will" to other ships. Brutes used Covies ships on Harvest, so they knew how to utilize them - they also defeated human fleet above Earth.

Sangheili culture is similar to Japanese in early 1900s (after 2nd World War Japan was unable to be left alone for several years and many thing from other cultures were copied from US occupant).
The pattern of their culture was practical for years (same goes for Japanese culture up to 19th century), so why they should change it?

Something for you is not acceptable, but for me could be normal. This is called 'different point of view' - thanks to this world isn't boring as it could be.

Well, Sangheili believed in their gods (Forerunners) in the same way Humans believe in God. They never wanted artifacts and new technology, San'Shyuum wanted to investigate those artifacts. After war Sangheili accepted San'Shyuum proposition and formed Covenant, Elites stopped developing their native technology. As far as I know Prophets misinterpreted Luminary's 'reclaimer' for "Reclamation", and thus all slaughter thing begun. Probably Covies don't know Forerunner language so well - text in Terminals in Halo 3 was only partially translated.
Not only humans could use Forerunners technology - Huragok's also possessed this ability.

Well, history of Judaism is older than 3000 years. On Judaism based Christianity and Islam. Hinduism is dated aprox. 3000-4000 BCE. It isn't strange for me that Covies believe in their gods for more than 3000 years.
Humans in 2500s also believe in God - religion is still present during H-C war.

Maybe Sangheili trusted Prophets too much... that's all...

Well, what dr Halsey says is not interesting for me - she is using reverse engineered shield technology and calls MJOLNIR armour her creation. I think she's only seeing Sangheili ignorance in field of science.

  • 07.02.2011 4:41 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Kili
Sangheili are not older race than humans. You missed first use of Halo array which destroyed all sentient life forms in Galaxy. At the same time all life was reseed from the Ark.

They are. Origins clearly depicts them as a civilisation when Humans are still stone age cavemen. They were restored as is after the array fired. They are an older race.

Posted by: Kili
Rtas wasn't alone against Brutes, he lead a fleet and ordered to "fire at will" to other ships. Brutes used Covies ships on Harvest, so they knew how to utilize them - they also defeated human fleet above Earth.

No, they did not. The Brutes got "second hand" ships that were stripped down and lacked certain technologies that the Elites used on their ships.

We know nothing about the battle over Earth except that the Covenant Loyalist there had 30 ships left from the hundreds they had a High Charity. Given their advanced technology and the fact that they had many, many more ships than the UNSC, they should be clearly winning the war with no such loses in the first place. They are incompetent.

Rtas had 9 ships under his command. So 9 commanders. We do not know how many of those ships survived, and even if all of them survived, it is still a generalisation. 1 Sangheili can not be used to determine the characteristics of 1 billion.

Posted by: Kili
Something for you is not acceptable, but for me could be normal. This is called 'different point of view' - thanks to this world isn't boring as it could be.

If "something for you" is based off of silly superstition and irrationality then you are delusional.

Posted by: Kili
Well, Sangheili believed in their gods (Forerunners) in the same way Humans believe in God.

Almost every single Sangheili believes in Forerunner gods with no questions. There are a significant number of Humans who do not believe in God. I certainly don't. Every single Sangheili we have seen believes the Forerunners to be Gods and in the associated religious fascist ideals. They have shown no sign of changing these ideals whilst Humanity has. The Heretics we cannot be sure about, as they merely disbelieved in the Great Journey. I don't think they ever said anything about the Forerunners themselves.

Posted by: Kili
As far as I know Prophets misinterpreted Luminary's 'reclaimer' for "Reclamation", and thus all slaughter thing begun.

And? You would think that this mistake would have been picked up time after time after time.

Posted by: Kili
Probably Covies don't know Forerunner language so well - text in Terminals in Halo 3 was only partially translated.

And yet you say they have a superior intellect... Don't their Gods want them to know about their heritage? No one questions this either?

Posted by: Kili
Not only humans could use Forerunners technology - Huragok's also possessed this ability.

That is because Huragok are themselves creations of the Forerunners. They are essentially like machines themselves.

Posted by: Kili
Well, history of Judaism is older than 3000 years. On Judaism based Christianity and Islam. Hinduism is dated aprox. 3000-4000 BCE. It isn't strange for me that Covies believe in their gods for more than 3000 years.
Humans in 2500s also believe in God - religion is still present during H-C war.

Not necessarily the independent faith, but the entire mindset of the Covenant. I am sorry, but your argument here has no substance. The world is becoming more and more secular and pluralistic by the day, regardless of whether these religions are still around. Compare this to 3000 years ago and you will see how much we have changed, in comparison to the Covenants primitive moral standards that have stagnated for millennia. They are atavistic.

If facts, logic and common sense are impenetrable to the Covenant, then they are stupid.

Posted by: Kili
Well, what dr Halsey says is not interesting for me - she is using reverse engineered shield technology and calls MJOLNIR armour her creation. I think she's only seeing Sangheili ignorance in field of science.

What the hell is this, ad Hominem or something? It does not matter what she has done, it matters what she said. And the Covenants ignorance in the field of science is exactly what she said. You don't need to be a moral philosopher to tell that the Covenant are atavistic and irrational in their beliefs.

  • 07.02.2011 5:19 PM PDT

yas334229812

Sanghelli are still younger they were more advanced than humans after humans were devolved twice. read some of the books and you will notice that the humans nearly had the tech to defeat the flood but by fighting the forerunners at the same time nearly got killed. their punishment devolution.

The brutes that attacked earth had been given better ships by the prophet of truth due to brutes being more loyal and the faltering belief of the sanghelli. there was a genocide that happened on high charity. most good ships were forced out of sangheli care and given to the jirallhein aka brutes. (spelling mistake)

The prophets didnt make a mistake the three that would later be truth regret and mercy knew what the humans were and decided to keep it secret. They removed the former high prophets and took over and after doing so understanding what the information of humans being reclaimer could do to the covenant if anyone found out they decided to kill them of and call them a disease. It would have given them power. They didnt believe in the great journey anymore. But somehow the game shows otherwise.

  • 07.02.2011 5:30 PM PDT

The covenant (and yes, that includes the Elites) have all there technology copied from the forerunners, whereas humans created and invented there own.

  • 07.03.2011 3:05 AM PDT
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Well, Prophets in game believed in GJ except of Truth, who had plan to wipe out life from Galaxy and reseed it again and gain god-like status. If he'd succeeded, he'd control entire Galaxy without any resistance. (my speculations while reading books, playing game)

Well, Elites had their advanced native technology with Tarasque-class heavy fighter and Gigas-class heavy bomber, Covenant Cruiser was in great part their design - later upgraded with technology of Forerunners.
San'Shyuum were using technology of Forerunners for greater scale. Sangheili started to use this technology in second half of Sangheili - San'Shyuum war. The same goes for humans, who reverse engineered shield and plasma technology from Covenant during Human - Covenant war.

If you think that before firing Halo array Elites were older race than humans, then you are mistaken. Humans were 1 of 2 great races (the other one was San'Shyuum) which were able to threaten Forerunners. First Halo ring was used to eradicate San'Shyuum after Human - Forerunner war. San'Shyuum and Humans were allies during fighting the Flood.

If facts, logic and common sense are impenetrable to the Covenant, then they are stupid.

Same goes for humans. Some of them are fanatics, other believe they're right. Try to persuade to fanatics that they're wrong - it is really hard. For example, -blam!- Germans - when people said that their ideology was wrong, Hitler was able to came to the top of power and challenge world.

What I saw in your post is that you're not trying to understand what was driving Covies to behave in their own way, but you judge them with your own system of moral values.
You should look at their culture, believes and try to put yourself in their shoes. Then you can judge them.

If facts, logic and common sense are impenetrable to the Covenant, then they are stupid.
Facts? Common sense? Logic?
I will tell you something what happened in 1939... 205 Polish soldiers defending Westerplatte - they had ammo and food supplies for aprox. 2 days of defense. They were defending against attacks from air, water and land (including 220mm artillery) for 7 days. In fight with them -blam!- Germans deployed thousands of troops. Those are facts. Germans gave them chance to surrender (they gave facts that Polish soldiers were greatly outnumbered, had little chance to defend for more than few hours with no reinforcements and from strategic point of view they would lost their fight) but they refused. Were they stupid fighting with no chances for victory? No, now they're called heroes. Not everything can be persuaded with logic or common sense.

[Edited on 07.03.2011 2:58 PM PDT]

  • 07.03.2011 1:44 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Kili
Well, Prophets in game believed in GJ except of Truth, who had plan to wipe out life from Galaxy and reseed it again and gain god-like status. If he'd succeeded, he'd control entire Galaxy without any resistance. (my speculations while reading books, playing game)

He played the entire Covenant for fools, and he did it so easily. It sort of proves my point.

Posted by: Kili
Well, Elites had their advanced native technology with Tarasque-class heavy fighter and Gigas-class heavy bomber,

None of this can be proven to be Tier 2 level technology from before their war with the Prophets. For one, we do not know when these craft were first made, and we do not know if they were a product of the Covenant's more advanced technology. The section about the Energy Sword on Halo Waypoint confirms what I have believed for a long time. Their most prized weapon existed as a resin from wood found on the coasts of Sangheilios. Only after they started probing and reverse-engineering Forerunner technology did plasma weaponry (And the Swords transition from a blade to an an energy blade) happen. They were space faring (Tier 3) before the Prophets encountered them.

As for those bombers you mentioned. They were replaced by the Seraph, which itself is not very good in atmosphere.

Posted by: Kili
Covenant Cruiser was in great part their design - later upgraded with technology of Forerunners.

We do not know what the Cruiser was like before Forerunner technology was used. Yes it was designed by the Elites, but it was most likely originally a more primitive model. (Like the Curve-blade being the primitive version of the Energy Sword)

Posted by: Kili
If you think that before firing Halo array Elites were older race than humans, then you are mistaken. Humans were 1 of 2 great races (the other one was San'Shyuum) which were able to threaten Forerunners. First Halo ring was used to eradicate San'Shyuum after Human - Forerunner war. San'Shyuum and Humans were allies during fighting the Flood.

Yes I have read Cryptum. Ancient Humanity is irrelevant because it was completely and utterly eradicated. Humanity were reset back to the stone ages, therefore the Elites are an older civilisation than the UNSC era Humanity.

Your argument of Humanity being intellectually inferior to the Covenant defies common sense and canon.

  • 07.03.2011 2:04 PM PDT
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I never said that Sangheili were superior to the Humans. I've said only, that they weren't stupid. In my opinion they were at the same level of intelligence as Humans.

Humans and Elites had the same amount of time to develop since reseeding. At start Elites were developing a little faster (they would probably enter Tier 3 status earlier than humans), but in the end their development were interfered by forming of the Covenant.

Well, you are right at this point as we won't know what was influenced by Forerunner artifacts and what was original, native technology of Covenant races.

BTW> Sorry for editing my previous post (at the same time you answered) - I wanted to write something but I was interrupted back then.

  • 07.03.2011 3:16 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Kili
If facts, logic and common sense are impenetrable to the Covenant, then they are stupid.
Same goes for humans. Some of them are fanatics, other believe they're right. Try to persuade to fanatics that they're wrong - it is really hard. For example, -blam!- Germans - when people said that their ideology was wrong, Hitler was able to came to the top of power and challenge world.

The difference is that almost the entire Covenant has remained stagnant in beliefs that would easily be dispelled by facts and logic. For all this time, none of them have raised significant numbers to inspire change.

Posted by: Kili
What I saw in your post is that you're not trying to understand what was driving Covies to behave in their own way, but you judge them with your own system of moral values.
You should look at their culture, believes and try to put yourself in their shoes. Then you can judge them.

I don't subscribe to this friendly policy. Peoples political views are up for debate, peoples religious views are up for debate, as are your economical views, your scientific views and you views on football. I see morality as being no different. Yes I am aware of Moral Relativism, but that does not mean that I have to automatically respect other peoples beliefs. If you base your morals on beliefs that are quite easily proven false, as nothing more than superstition, and continue to follow them in ignorance, especially with beliefs as harmful and as fascist as the Covenant's beliefs (Some primitively barbaric with no substantial proof), then there is a lack of intellect in there. I guess I am...Objectivist?

Not that they know their beliefs are atavistic though. However their inability to see how backwards they are is what I am getting at.

Posted by: Kili
I will tell you something what happened in 1939... 205 Polish soldiers defending Westerplatte - they had ammo and food supplies for aprox. 2 days of defense. They were defending against attacks from air, water and land (including 220mm artillery) for 7 days. In fight with them -blam!- Germans deployed thousands of troops. Those are facts. Germans gave them chance to surrender (they gave facts that Polish soldiers were greatly outnumbered, had little chance to defend for more than few hours with no reinforcements and from strategic point of view they would lost their fight) but they refused. Were they stupid fighting with no chances for victory? No, now they're called heroes. Not everything can be persuaded with logic or common sense.

It depends entirely on what their motivation was. If their motivation was to actually win that battle, then yes they would be idiots given the fact of the situation. However it is unlikely that was the case. If they wanted to be martyrs, to spread a message of defiance to their people, then they would not be fools at all.

Posted by: Kili
I never said that Sangheili were superior to the Humans. I've said only, that they weren't stupid. In my opinion they were at the same level of intelligence as Humans.

I thought you implied that when you said this in your first post:

"Well, if they are stupid then what about humans?"

But if that is not what you meant then I guess there is no need to continue. I agree with what you just said there.

  • 07.03.2011 3:56 PM PDT

Ratermelon416


Posted by: UncivilClover99
and just bomb the tits

Yes

  • 07.03.2011 4:04 PM PDT

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