Halo 1 & 2 for PC
This topic has moved here: Subject: For Lack of a Better Shot
  • Subject: For Lack of a Better Shot
Subject: For Lack of a Better Shot
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

I freakin' addressed what you said head-on. You said "using cramped spots to your advantage" and "waiting for weapon respawns" take skill. I explained in great detail why they don't. You're only pretending I didn't.

So here it is again. Actually read it this time.


Using a cramped area to your advantage is essentially choke point watching. You're slimming down the area that you need to aim at in order to make your shot count, solely because you wouldn't otherwise be able to aim at your opponent correctly if he were able to move around effectively. No skill-based game facilitates this mechanic because good aim by a player defines the skill-gap in FPS games.

Waiting for a weapon respawn would be pointless unless it was a weapon that gave you an advantage over players that are better than you. In the section above, it's clearly explained how the power weapon concept caters to the unskilled. Therefore, depending on these weapons to respawn to the point where they become critical to your success denotes that you have zero skill and wouldn't be able to win if the playing field was even among players.

Now you can't feign ignorance. Your rebuttal?

  • 07.03.2011 6:41 PM PDT
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Hmm, never got a response from my post that did actually address the discussion at hand. :/

  • 07.03.2011 6:48 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Posted by: Dr Syx
Hmm, never got a response from my post that did actually address the discussion at hand. :/

Didn't see it, actually. That is a good post. I'm actually in agreement with all of that. We seem to have the same view on casual FPS games; even if they don't take skill to play, they can still be a hell of a lot of fun.

Fun is subjective though, and we're focusing on objective fact in this thread. So I'm disregarding the "fun factor", which reasonably varies from person to person. The sole point I'm trying to get across in this thread is this: Halo 2 doesn't take skill to play or win at. There are people that claim it does, and they're wrong.

  • 07.03.2011 7:07 PM PDT

Halo 3


Posted by: DusK
I freakin' addressed what you said head-on. You said "using cramped spots to your advantage" and "waiting for weapon respawns" take skill. I explained in great detail why they don't. You're only pretending I didn't.

So here it is again. Actually read it this time.


Using a cramped area to your advantage is essentially choke point watching. You're slimming down the area that you need to aim at in order to make your shot count, solely because you wouldn't otherwise be able to aim at your opponent correctly if he were able to move around effectively. No skill-based game facilitates this mechanic because good aim by a player defines the skill-gap in FPS games.

Waiting for a weapon respawn would be pointless unless it was a weapon that gave you an advantage over players that are better than you. In the section above, it's clearly explained how the power weapon concept caters to the unskilled. Therefore, depending on these weapons to respawn to the point where they become critical to your success denotes that you have zero skill and wouldn't be able to win if the playing field was even among players.

Now you can't feign ignorance. Your rebuttal?




http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=62010221

Posted in that ^

  • 07.03.2011 7:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: DusK
Posted by: Dr Syx
Hmm, never got a response from my post that did actually address the discussion at hand. :/

Didn't see it, actually. That is a good post. I'm actually in agreement with all of that. We seem to have the same view on casual FPS games; even if they don't take skill to play, they can still be a hell of a lot of fun.

Fun is subjective though, and we're focusing on objective fact in this thread. So I'm disregarding the "fun factor", which reasonably varies from person to person. The sole point I'm trying to get across in this thread is this: Halo 2 doesn't take skill to play or win at. There are people that claim it does, and they're wrong.
Okay, glad to hear you approve :P

  • 07.03.2011 7:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: Twisted4293
Are you and Dusk flirting on a forum? Thats just disgusting!
No rule exists that forbids such an action.

):

  • 07.03.2011 7:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: Vidyums
Posted by: Twisted4293
Are you and Dusk flirting on a forum? Thats just disgusting!
No rule exists that forbids such an action.

):
and it would be an extremely disappointing thing if there was one! All forums need a bit of flirt :P

  • 07.03.2011 8:11 PM PDT

After reading this...

"Marksmanship: The defining factor of competitive FPS"

It wasn't always that way. Early FPS' like Doom and Quake had auto-aim and no mouse aim.

Got to this
2. The vector assist, or bullet magnetism as many like to call it, was dramatically boosted from the previous game. This allowed players who were so bad at aiming that they still missed their shots to hit their opponent anyway. The easiest example could be seen in the swipe snipe, which could yield a headshot even if you missed by a yard. Rockets became homing weapons, and hitting with the BR was essentially as easy as keeping your reticule within 3 feet of the opponent's player model.

When all was said and done, these two "features" allowed people who had never even touched an FPS game before to aim just as well as a seasoned pro. And just like that, bad players started topping the scoreboard.


And I agree with that, who can't?

Imagine that there was an opponent that you couldn't possibly beat. He lands his shots much better than you ever could, dodges far too unpredictably for your tiny brain to react. Then imagine that there was a weapon that could nullify all of that and allow you to kill that player who you would otherwise lose against in a truly level playing field.

I actually encounter this situation often in Halo CE, except on a smaller scale, as in the enemy only nullifies my abilities temporarily, via a rocket launcher or fuel rod gun.

First-person cowardice: The frail argument that shooting shouldn't be important

In a recent thread, a point was attempted that would make any decent FPS player laugh so hard it hurt his sides. I did just that.

Essentially, it was argued that Halo 2 was a skill-based FPS despite marksmanship not being important. What was deemed "skillful" in this game was "using cramped maps to your advantage" and "waiting for a weapon respawn"


lolwat.

Gimme a direct quote.

When it does, it's no longer a first-person shooter, but a first-person battle to see who the biggest coward is.

Very, very well put.

A Baddie in Beast's Clothing: The illusion of skill

Ahaha, I love it already.

Halo 2 essentially provides an illusion of skill. The most obvious of this on the Xbox version is the ranking system. Any decent FPS player who has ever played Halo 2 knows it is far from skill-based. Yet for some stupid reason known only to God and the developers, they decided to slap some falsified epeen onto the game's matchmaking system. In a game where skill means nothing, ranks breeded pretentiousness. Players who wouldn't be able to hold a candle to even the most casual UT player suddenly believed that earning a high rank in the noob's paradise made them God's gift to FPS.

The illusion applied on a subconscious level as well. A gladiatorial-style multiplayer, announcer and all, praising players for being cowards. I'll be the first to admit that killing four players simultaneously with an explosion feels pretty cool, even if I know I did it cheaply. But when the announcer lets forth a grizzly testament to your prowess, suddenly a bad player feels like he has skill. This, layered on with a numbered scoreboard that allowed bad players to proudly display all of their kills that they wouldn't have otherwise earned if the game didn't practically hand them over for free, essentially provided bad FPS players with a haven to retreat to.

At last, a player who would constantly ride the bottom of the scoreboard in a game where skill was required could now venture into a world where he could play with his genitals tucked firmly between his legs and believe he's good.


(An enormously eloquent paragraph was created in response to the finale of this glorious finale to a glorious essay, but the author felt it still could not describe his feelings. Needless to say, fireworks were involved.)

[Edited on 07.03.2011 8:27 PM PDT]

  • 07.03.2011 8:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: Tempus Irae
It wasn't always that way. Early FPS' like Doom and Quake had auto-aim and no mouse aim.
I don't remember the original Quake having auto-aim. Doom was terrible with not even having vertical aiming and at that time I don't even think most games had vertical aiming. Then again, the first FPS I ever played was Marathon 2: Durandal at my babysitter's house... When I'd get bored her son would let me play games on his Mac and as everyone knows, there wasn't much for the Mac :P

Anyways, sorry for getting off-topic there. What I'd like to get through is that just because the original FPS games didn't have vertical aiming/had aim assist doesn't mean that isn't where skill is to be found in FPS gaming. In the 90's there were immensely great changes for FPS games. Such as Unreal Tournamen, Quake, and Tribes that really showed what a truly skillful FPS looks like. To this day there are tons of people who still play these games. The reason is because a truly great game takes an enormous amount of time to age. There's a reason why Counter-Strike was still the most played game on Steam since Steam was around until TF2 became free.

[Edited on 07.03.2011 8:31 PM PDT]

  • 07.03.2011 8:29 PM PDT

Sooooooo who actually read the whining kids whole post? (Not me LOL)


http://twitter.com/#!/twisted4293

Hey Matt!

And lolwat...searches yielded up a "kissagency.com" profile for twisted4293.

I don't remember the original Quake having auto-aim. Doom was terrible with not even having vertical aiming and at that time I don't even think most games had vertical aiming. Then again, the first FPS I ever played was Marathon 2: Durandal at my babysitter's house... When I'd get bored her son would let me play games on his Mac and as everyone knows, there wasn't much for the Mac :P

Did you ever get all the way up to All Roads Lead to Sol?

Because to this day I have not beaten M2.

[Edited on 07.03.2011 8:42 PM PDT]

  • 07.03.2011 8:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: Tempus Irae
Posted by: Dr Syx
I don't remember the original Quake having auto-aim. Doom was terrible with not even having vertical aiming and at that time I don't even think most games had vertical aiming. Then again, the first FPS I ever played was Marathon 2: Durandal at my babysitter's house... When I'd get bored her son would let me play games on his Mac and as everyone knows, there wasn't much for the Mac :P


Did you ever get all the way up to All Roads Lead to Sol?

Because to this day I have not beaten M2.
Oh Lord, like I could remember now xD. I've beaten all the games a few years back and I would bet $20 that I never made it that far. I was just a little kid completely confused as to what I was doing. Half the time the guy would find the terminals then let me "shoot the bad guys". :P

I didn't actually realize Marathon was also made by Bungie until 2005 when I first visited this site. Thought that it was pretty neat, personally. I often wonder if the guy had Myth too.

(P.S. Thank you for naming yourself that. I've been putting off trying out Tempus Irae for a while. I've played Rubicon and Eternal before. Those seemed really nice, so, I might as well try that one, too. Might download it tomorrow.)

[Edited on 07.03.2011 8:53 PM PDT]

  • 07.03.2011 8:47 PM PDT

Oh Lord, like I could remember now xD. I've beaten all the games a few years back and I would bet $20 that I never made it that far. I was just a little kid completely confused as to what I was doing. Half the time the guy would find the terminals then let me "shoot the bad guys". :P

I didn't actually realize Marathon was also made by Bungie until 2005 when I first visited this site. Thought that it was pretty neat, personally. I often wonder if the guy had Myth too.

(P.S. Thank you for naming yourself that. I've been putting off trying out Tempus Irae for a while. I've played Rubicon and Eternal before. Those seemed really nice, so, I might as well try that one, too. Might download it tomorrow.)


Oh god, I hate the gameplay of Eternal. It has a good plot, but the gameplay is below -blam!--tier.

If you've played Rubicon, then have you heard of Where Monsters Dwell In Dreams?

  • 07.03.2011 8:59 PM PDT
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"A life lived for others is the only life worth living" - Albert Einstein

"I have your RCON right here." - Iggwilv

"Always my pleasure to be lazy." - InvasionImminent

Eh, I remember hearing something about it. I don't think it was ever released when I was playing through all the Marathon stuff. Unless you're not talking about the scenario I'm thinking about :P

(Sorry for the derailment >_<)

  • 07.03.2011 9:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: Dr Syx

Posted by: Vidyums
Posted by: Twisted4293
Are you and Dusk flirting on a forum? Thats just disgusting!
No rule exists that forbids such an action.

):
and it would be an extremely disappointing thing if there was one! All forums need a bit of flirt :P
You're pretty cool, guy, just sayin'.

  • 07.03.2011 9:24 PM PDT
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"A life lived for others is the only life worth living" - Albert Einstein

"I have your RCON right here." - Iggwilv

"Always my pleasure to be lazy." - InvasionImminent


Posted by: Vidyums

Posted by: Dr Syx

Posted by: Vidyums
Posted by: Twisted4293
Are you and Dusk flirting on a forum? Thats just disgusting!
No rule exists that forbids such an action.

):
and it would be an extremely disappointing thing if there was one! All forums need a bit of flirt :P
You're pretty cool, guy, just sayin'.
Thanks! I always welcome compliments. (: xD

  • 07.03.2011 9:30 PM PDT

This is actually the stupidest thing ever posted on B.net:

Posted by: the omega man117
Why does everyone hate Halo 2? Maybe its because its the worst game ever next to mario.

I am one of the biggest Halo 2 fanboys ever, it is my favorite shooter ever and easily one of my top 5 favorite games of all time. I just have too many memories and great gaming experiences with Halo 2 over Xbox Live.

And even with all that said, I will still say that it does indeed take more skill to play Combat Evolved at a high level, but H2 still was still competitive among good players too.

  • 07.04.2011 3:32 PM PDT

Zetren, I want my pizza, please.

Concerning the original posts:

Even Super Smash Bros. is played competitively. Characters found to be extremely powerful are banned from competitive play, and no one uses the crappy characters, just like no one uses the assault rifle in Halo: CE.

Auto-aim was a staple of GoldenEye 007 on the N64 (a game that truly does do the aiming for you), yet it is still played competitively. Ultimately, good players get the same auto-aim boost. DusK, are you telling me you weren't able to kill a Halo 2oob with *all* that help from the Xbox? It might be that auto-aim helps bad players land a shot or two here and there, but Halo isn't a game where one shot kills, so it's not a big deal if a Halo 2oob plunks you in the head twice with a BR. Can we all agree that auto-aim doesn't reduce match-ups to coin flips and therefore ~wait for it~ the better players come out on top far more often than not?

Halo CE has problems far worse than auto-aim--vehicles that kill on contact, the Banshee in general, and the pistol to a lesser extent. <--you forgot those

  • 07.04.2011 7:59 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.


Posted by: VintageRonJohnUC
Even Super Smash Bros. is played competitively. Characters found to be extremely powerful are banned from competitive play, and no one uses the crappy characters, just like no one uses the assault rifle in Halo: CE.

You're referring to that joke of a league MLG. If you actually take MLG seriously, you don't know what competitive gaming is.

Posted by: VintageRonJohnUC
Auto-aim was a staple of GoldenEye 007 on the N64 (a game that truly does do the aiming for you), yet it is still played competitively.

By who? Never heard of anyone playing such a laughably casual game competitively unless it was MLG.

Posted by: VintageRonJohnUC
Ultimately, good players get the same auto-aim boost. DusK, are you telling me you weren't able to kill a Halo 2oob with *all* that help from the Xbox? It might be that auto-aim helps bad players land a shot or two here and there, but Halo isn't a game where one shot kills, so it's not a big deal if a Halo 2oob plunks you in the head twice with a BR. Can we all agree that auto-aim doesn't reduce match-ups to coin flips and therefore ~wait for it~ the better players come out on top far more often than not?

That's not the way it works. If you're already awesome at aiming, then aim assist won't help you. If you suck at aiming, then it will help a lot. Therefore, with aim assist, lower players are brought up to the skill level of experienced players.

Posted by: VintageRonJohnUC
Halo CE has problems far worse than auto-aim--vehicles that kill on contact, the Banshee in general, and the pistol to a lesser extent. <--you forgot those

In competitive Halo CE play, you get at most two warthogs per team. You never see a banshee in a truly competitive gametype. As for the pistol, it made the game's weapon imbalance almost negligible, because it actually took skill to use correctly. If a player was actually good at FPS, he could use that weapon to kill an lesser player regardless of what that lesser player was using. It maintained the skill gap.

  • 07.04.2011 8:17 PM PDT


Posted by: DusK
You're referring to that joke of a league MLG. If you actually take MLG seriously, you don't know what competitive gaming is.


Nope. I don't much care for MLG, and I'm sure I laugh as hard as you do when people insert it into their username for no apparent reason. I'm referring to people who play Super Smash Bros. competitively, which is not limited to MLG, who I didn't know dabbled in Smash.

Posted by: DusK
By who? Never heard of anyone playing such a laughably casual game competitively unless it was MLG.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZraVrlOor4
People don't start playing a game online 10 years after its release because they're looking for a casual experience.

Posted by: DusK
That's not the way it works. If you're already awesome at aiming, then aim assist won't help you. If you suck at aiming, then it will help a lot. Therefore, with aim assist, lower players are brought up to the skill level of experienced players.

But auto-aim doesn't bestow upon everyone flawless aim. If you're awesome at aiming, you will receive less help. Think of it like a graduated income tax: more assistance for the poor, moderate assistance for the not-so-poor, and no assistance for the upper class. Still doesn't mean everyone has the same income. I'm not really in favor, but it doesn't stop better players from winning.

Posted by: DusK
In competitive Halo CE play, you get at most two warthogs per team. You never see a banshee in a truly competitive gametype. As for the pistol, it made the game's weapon imbalance almost negligible, because it actually took skill to use correctly. If a player was actually good at FPS, he could use that weapon to kill an lesser player regardless of what that lesser player was using. It maintained the skill gap.


Those are alterations that competitive-minded players have made to the game--exactly what MLG does. If I recall, Halo 2 (Xbox) allows you to turn auto-aim off, no?

  • 07.04.2011 8:48 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.


Posted by: VintageRonJohnUC
Nope. I don't much care for MLG, and I'm sure I laugh as hard as you do when people insert it into their username for no apparent reason. I'm referring to people who play Super Smash Bros. competitively, which is not limited to MLG, who I didn't know dabbled in Smash.

Then those people are just as equally ridiculous. Nobody who plays competitive fighters would actually view SSB as a competitive series.
Posted by: VintageRonJohnUC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZraVrlOor4
People don't start playing a game online 10 years after its release because they're looking for a casual experience.

You'd have to be terribad at FPS to look to a game like Goldeneye for competitive gameplay tbh.

And lol @ that video. Holy crap those guys suck. I hope they aren't the kind of people you point to when someone asks you what FPS skill is.

Posted by: VintageRonJohnUC
But auto-aim doesn't bestow upon everyone flawless aim. If you're awesome at aiming, you will receive less help. Think of it like a graduated income tax: more assistance for the poor, moderate assistance for the not-so-poor, and no assistance for the upper class. Still doesn't mean everyone has the same income. I'm not really in favor, but it doesn't stop better players from winning.

Would have been a good analogy, but it's more like socialism; Everyone gets put on the same plane for aiming, which is top-tier.

Posted by: VintageRonJohnUC
Those are alterations that competitive-minded players have made to the game--exactly what MLG does. If I recall, Halo 2 (Xbox) allows you to turn auto-aim off, no?

No. It doesn't. And when the noobifications are built into the core gameplay itself, like it was in Halo 2, like it wasn't in Halo 1, then the game itself is no longer a viable competitive platform.

  • 07.04.2011 10:10 PM PDT

HD pizza for everyone!

On the subject at hand, I read your post DusK, It's actully very good. I take back what I said. And oh yes I do agree that Halo 2 Vista sucks.

  • 07.05.2011 3:31 AM PDT

I think we're just going to have to drop the first 1-2 points. You feel that games (very few of them, I might add) are competitive straight out of the package, and others are only good for fun. I don't agree, but I understand. I feel that nearly any game can be made into a competitive experience. In snappy quote-tastic formula: There aren't that many casual games, just casual players. (I'll admit I didn't pay much attention to the guys in the video)

I think you're just plain wrong about the auto-aim. Not everyone has equitable marksmanship skills in Halo 2. Yes there's some assistance for noobs, no it doesn't make everyone as good a shot as the Halo CE world champion.

"Noobifications" must be code for "things DusK doesn't like". The Banshee and kill-everything-now warthogs were built into Halo CE's gameplay. Taking them out is *exactly* what MLG does--remove vehicles or weapons that can be abused so as to make the game lopsided.

  • 07.05.2011 6:38 AM PDT
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Maw

A clear, well ordered argument delivered with conviction. Some unnecessary crudeness, but very well written. Good job.

  • 07.05.2011 8:49 PM PDT

We’re flawed because we want so much more. We’re ruined because we get these things and wish for what we had.

I never played Halo 2 online simply because of this, well this and all the button mash glitches you could do. But I loved the -blam!- out of Halo 2`s campaign.

  • 07.05.2011 9:58 PM PDT

w00t w00t

Check out my Gaming Rig on EVGA Mod Rigs.


Posted by: DusK
Oh look, I lay out a detailed and comprehensive post, and none of the Halo 2oobs can contribute anything beyond childish insults and general stupidity.

What a shock.

Seriously. If you're gonna post, at least make it worth it.


Dude, you repeat this same argument all the time. I've come to believe this is one of the only reasons you even frequent this forum.

I could probably find about 100 posts of you calling people nubs (including this one) for liking Halo 2 when you don't.

The game is almost 7 years old now, move on.

  • 07.06.2011 2:11 PM PDT