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  • Subject: Bungie dialogue on Halo reach still conflicts
Subject: Bungie dialogue on Halo reach still conflicts

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who cares? It's s game, sheesh

  • 07.05.2011 12:25 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: sorarules20
who cares? It's s game, sheesh

You are obviously new here.

  • 07.05.2011 12:26 PM PDT


Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: sorarules20
who cares? It's s game, sheesh

You are obviously new here.


This forum is for discussing the universes of the games Bungie has created. So... yeah, that's why we get the random marathon or myth topic and often discuss halo related lore/items.

I'd only go that far sora, if we were actually waging war over the topic of debate :P.

[Edited on 07.05.2011 12:31 PM PDT]

  • 07.05.2011 12:31 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

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Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: privet caboose
Reach just completely caught me off guard with how bad it screwed things up.

Cryptum, Evolutions, Bootcamp...they've all been amazing.

The Halo story is beautiful, but what good is it when everything comes to a crash near the end of the series? Everything meshes together perfectly, and then ONE piece of material ruins EVERYTHING.


The key events still occur, the Autumn flees Reach, Reach falls on the 30th, the Autumn finds Halo.


How halo was found is an issue to0, soon as the sigma crystal was gathered cortana was able to get coordinates from it nothing else.


Yet in reach we have some random artifact which was blown up before it was explained (343i better not do that crap) that was needed to get the coordinates and halsey implies from how see was talking that it was of importance.


That is completely different that what really happened, and defeats the purpose the entire first game.

Coma has been on the waypoint forums and i doubt she as seen this yet.

@Cmdr when we fist heard of this game we wanted it to be based of the novels for canon reasons, we were afraid this everything would happen. while on that same note we didn't want it to be about reach because there isn't wiggle room.


Plus the lack of finding the Sigma Crystal means that the other information on it (Nylund said there is more then one purpose it serves) is now irrelevant.

Just as well, the Covenant never would have went looking for it, and therefore, Keyes never did the Keyes loop and was never picked for his mission to go to Covenant Space to capture a Prophet, thusly Halo was never found. Remember: he was picked because of his tatcical brilliance displayed at Sigma Octanus.

And then the Covenant would never have attatched a probe to the Iriquois and never would have found Reach. How did they find Reach, then?

It can be said everything revolved around the battle of Sigma Octanus IV. It all started there because of the specific events that happened, how it happened.


I really don't see how Reach's canon error extends to anything outside of the Battle of Reach itself. Sigma Octanus still happens exactly as before.

Sure the Sword Base artifact's information diminishes the sole importance of the Sigma Octanus rock, but it's not necessarily completely defunct. It's still a sure shot that the significance of the Sword Base Artifact is giving Cortana the necessary info she need to fully translate the coordinates from the rock.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hell, if you stare over Reach with a fine tooth comb, do so for the rest of canon. It's also filled with varying errors. Last I checked, Coma was like myself. Reach isn't perfect, but neither is the book. Thinking about it and coming up with solutions to fill the missing information gap is better then being mindless and going "It's broken, there is a hole here! We must whine until somebody fixes it" and then "IT'S not fixed EXACTLY as I wanted!"



I really don't understand why at some point you'll go back to the argument of "if you're talking about this, go talk about that". It's a tad bit off the point, and on top of that people do talk about such things. Particularly the Spartan II numbers which have still yet to be solidified among other things.

In any case the ultimate problem of taking the gaps and coming up with solutions for ourselves is just that. It's filling in the gaps for ourselves. While really small and insignificant issues can be solved away easily with one generally accepted solution (like the importance of Sword and it's relation to the Sigma rock), any bigger gaps is open to much larger interpretation. There can be quite literally dozens of ways to explain things to fill in the gaps and make things plausible.

For example, in regards to the large discrepancy of having the Circumference unwiped for the duration of the Covenant assault on Reach, it could be said that the Circumference docked with Gamma station on the 26th of August, and thus was only recently isolated. Course I can't think of a reason at the moment as to why it didn't wipe its nav data before heading to Reach...but in anycase the point is, we can come up with these solution that range from okay to ingenious. But such solutions would be kept only to ourselves and those immediately around us participating in the discussion. And even then, only if there's a general consensus to agree that that is the solution we'd all accept as happening rather than choosing another's explanation or anything one's self comes up with. Having those gaps explained away on an individual by individual basis doesn't really forward the cause into actually filling in the official gap which is the ultimately the final point where the problem would lie and that would be that even in the case that one particular solution is accepted, like Sword being a codex for Forerunner information, it's still ultimately unofficial in the Haloverse and can't be used as valid evidence for discussion. At most it can be really damn good fan fiction to take away from the lack of information present.

  • 07.05.2011 12:35 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

And on a side note: At least both the game and book are still canon. At least a writer didn't use his work to declare a much better novel non canon through use of canon hierarchy.

[Edited on 07.05.2011 12:39 PM PDT]

  • 07.05.2011 12:37 PM PDT
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias

Sadly, that is why I don't consider Reach as canon, no matter what Bungie says or 343i says about it. Bungie has done poor job with storytelling with Reach, it doesn't make any sense of how UNSC's strongest military stronghold, managed to fall to few corvettes and a super-carrier. You know well enough to know that cloaking completely is impossible because they would get detected by massive grids of detecting stations. REMEMBER, all novels stated that Covenant are imitative! Not innovative. REMEMBER THAT.

If they are seriously considering to explain about LnoS being somehow at Reach without getting detected via teleporation, I'm done with Halo. That magnitude itself would exceed Forerunner's technology! Which it is stupid anyway. It also stated that they did copy forerunner technology but couldn't use it full potential because of religious taboo which it severely hinders their ability to use ANY technology based from forerunners at full potential.

To all guys who defending Reach, and still thinks that tfor would be boring, here's my answer:

If Bungie followed the canon from TfoR version, it would be amazing game. If you think it would be boring, stop there. That's where your lack of imagination parts plays. They can use some contents from First strike too, to give it about 6 to 10 hours of gameplay on campaign (10 missions)



[Edited on 07.05.2011 1:16 PM PDT]

  • 07.05.2011 1:08 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: raganok99


Stopped reading as soon as you made the "true Halo fan" crack.

  • 07.05.2011 1:11 PM PDT
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: raganok99


Stopped reading as soon as you made the "true Halo fan" crack.


To protect your feelings, I deleted my part on halo fan. Edited some things in my rant as well.

  • 07.05.2011 1:26 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: raganok99
If Bungie followed the canon from TfoR version, it would be amazing game. If you think it would be boring, stop there. That's where your lack of imagination parts plays. They can use some contents from First strike too, to give it about 6 to 10 hours of gameplay on campaign (10 missions)

Doesn't seem like there would be enough content for such a game. We've got Gamma Station and protecting the MAC generators. There are plenty of events in First Strike to build upon for sure, but can they be expanded and built upon as missions?

  • 07.05.2011 1:39 PM PDT

Personally, IMO, any dev that resorts to making a game out of a book(s) is being lazy and unimaginitive. Sure, it may sell fairly well, but where's the fun in playing a game where you already know exactly what will happen? It's one of the reasons I rarely replay a game I've beaten: I know what will happen, so that part of the fun is not there any more.

  • 07.05.2011 1:45 PM PDT
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: raganok99
If Bungie followed the canon from TfoR version, it would be amazing game. If you think it would be boring, stop there. That's where your lack of imagination parts plays. They can use some contents from First strike too, to give it about 6 to 10 hours of gameplay on campaign (10 missions)

Doesn't seem like there would be enough content for such a game. We've got Gamma Station and protecting the MAC generators. There are plenty of events in First Strike to build upon for sure, but can they be expanded and built upon as missions?


Yes it can be expanded and built upon as mission as long they don't screw up canon.

  • 07.05.2011 1:47 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

How is teleporting whole ships outside Forerunner abilities? If they can shuffle planets, and contemplate shifting the axis of galaxies surely a single ship would be child's play for them. If they even got a fraction of the Foreruner's tech operable they would still be able to do great things.

The area where the Supercarrier is parked is also dark to all forms of electronic surveilence. Therefore, the UNSC cannot use their sensors to see the disturbances.

  • 07.05.2011 1:49 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: raganok99

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: raganok99
If Bungie followed the canon from TfoR version, it would be amazing game. If you think it would be boring, stop there. That's where your lack of imagination parts plays. They can use some contents from First strike too, to give it about 6 to 10 hours of gameplay on campaign (10 missions)

Doesn't seem like there would be enough content for such a game. We've got Gamma Station and protecting the MAC generators. There are plenty of events in First Strike to build upon for sure, but can they be expanded and built upon as missions?


Yes it can be expanded and built upon as mission as long they don't screw up canon.



And that's the million dollar question.

  • 07.05.2011 1:50 PM PDT

Raganok,

*Points at the 343 released information talking about the super-carrier being masked* Note the supercarrier is the single largest ship of the Covenant seen IIRC.

Also, a game about the ground battle using purely the book events would be... IMO, very boring. Not lack of imagitation, the simply thing that the book described the UNSC actions (bar the Spartans) groundside as being pathetic at best for a military stronghold, fitting for a lacking ground force.

I mean, who's idea was it to NOT mobilize all ground defensive assets as soon as the covenant were seen in system? The generators and UNSC command should have had armies guarding them, the UNSC air force hunting down and tearing into the dropships as they reached the poles (the skyhawks would be more then able to based on their weapons).

Instead, the dropships flew from the poles to their targets unopposed and deploy overwhelming forces at the locations completely destroying the defenders. This points at the defenders not being ready. All within 2-3 hours. That means travel time just doesn't exist(or was very, very short considering planet size was bigger then earth), and the Covenant could regroup from the lost dropships damn quick...

So, yes, using purely the information from the ground battles, it'd make the UNSC look stupid. Cause frankly releasing the game following the viewpoint of Red team would be... not that much actually added to the canon. '


edit:
Posted by: Slaskia
Personally, IMO, any dev that resorts to making a game out of a book(s) is being lazy and unimaginitive. Sure, it may sell fairly well, but where's the fun in playing a game where you already know exactly what will happen? It's one of the reasons I rarely replay a game I've beaten: I know what will happen, so that part of the fun is not there any more.


Point in case. I mean, book-to-movie or movie-to-book is fairly decent. and game-to-book can be nice as you get more insight on the characters and more information (like Master Chief actually having character development during the Flood). But taking the events of the book into the game exactly as is ruins it. We knew Reach would fall, but the key factor was "What happens?" with Halo Reach.

[Edited on 07.05.2011 1:53 PM PDT]

  • 07.05.2011 1:50 PM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: ajw34307
None of this rubbish makes any sense! It's almost mind boggling at how complex this has become, it's like trying to understand the Phantom Menace...


Funny, I was able to understand the Phantom Menace perfectly I didn't really find anything in the movie at all that didn't make any sense...

And I don't see anything completely understandable or something not making any sense in Reach either.


You must've watched a different Phantom Menace to the rest of humanity.

Then watch the Plinkett review, I shan't hijack the topic by spending 3 hours explaining why.

Erm... as for Reach why don't you look at the discussion going on here and the Unexplainable Errors thread. We shouldn't have to be imaginative and come up with our own answers, this is something Bungie should have made clear.


I have watched Plinkett's reviews (all three of them) and honestly, I thought pretty much everything he was saying in there was complete crap. I'm not going to say more because I also don't want to hijack the topic of the thread, but if you really feel the need to discuss the Prequels and Mr. Plinkett's reviews of them with me feel free to send a PM :)

I'm quite active (for the most part, schedule's been problematic recently due to midterms) in all the discussions and debates over Reach in case you didn't notice :P
You are both right and wrong with that last statement. Yes it's better if the developer explains questions that come up, but expecting such things immediately or believing that the fanbase shouldn't come up with theories or their own ideas to explain things is not the right approach. Being imaginative and trying to solve things for ourselves is by FAR better than just sitting around and complaining about what's wrong with a particular installment or sequence of events.

  • 07.05.2011 2:01 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Just because we have never seen something before does not make it untrue. It's the same thing a lot of the people who hate Cryptum are doing. We didn't know that there was a Human empire during the time of the Forerunners and Cryptum revealed that almost completely out of the blue, yet that doesn't mean that Human's having an empire at that can't be true. It's the same thing with Reach, we've only recently found out a bit about the range of ability the Covenant have at stealth.
The thing about Cryptum was that it addressed the earliest piece of the Halo timeline. Because it occurs before everything else, and because it is distanced from every other piece of canon by 100,000 years (save for the terminals) it can essentially be as imaginative and inventive as it likes. It's so detached from the rest of the canon that there is really no set standard it has to conform to.

Reach occurs right in the middle of the Human-Covenant War. We have stories and sources that detail both the Covenant and humanity before Reach, during Reach, and after Reach. It needs to make sense and adhere to the canon that came before and after it because we know that story both before and after it and making changes to that story makes changes to all canon that is set after it. The whole "we've never it seen it before so we can't know it exists" argument holds weight in certain scenarios, but not this. The FACT remains that the Covenant never mentioned stealth or teleportation technology before Reach or after it, yet during the battle (presumably) both we're employed with such sophistication and intelligence that these tactics (and the technology itself) could rival the Forerunner. We have sources to compare Reach to that occur both before and after the Battle. Reach works to directly contradict themes and limitations that were present throughout the series; you cannot simply explain that away by claiming ignorance.

And as for why the technology didn't see a wide range of application, we haven't seen every battle in the war, and most of the time the Covenant blundered onto Human planets completely by accident and lost any of the real advantages stealth would have given them.If the Covenant blundered into planets most of the time, why then, solely for the Battle of Reach, did they have an advanced scouting force? Why wouldn't they do that for every planet they encountered? Not much reason to send in a force completely based around stealth and sabotage if they already know you're there and have found the planet.But they knew Reach was there and yet they opted for the stealth route didnt they? In addition it is entirely possible and quite likely that the range of technology that the Supercarrier and its forces were equipped with, such as the use of teleportation and the advance stealth techniques, is not something that can easily be replicated on a large scale and outfitted to the whole army. Partly why I think the Supercarrier was so large, needed the extra room to hold all of the systems it would be using to hide itself and support the secrecy of its troops and the landing zone.The "it was all experimental and thus can't be easily replicated" argument is really the only thing that holds any weight. It begs the question though, why would they be testing this kind of technology on their largest ship? What benefit would stealth technology have on something so large, it's presence would be picked up even if it was completely invisible (at least it would be picked up if you go by every other piece of canon besides Reach)?


Edit: Posted by: StealthSlasher2
I'm glad you're here to address some of these issues. You explain and counter the arguments (which, in your absence, I feel I would have to address) in a clear, balanced, and unbiased manner. Thank you for doing that (you certainly save me a lot of work and do it much better than I could).

[Edited on 07.05.2011 3:16 PM PDT]

  • 07.05.2011 3:07 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

So we were told that games> books in canon and that we should go by them because bungie made them.

But when the game clearly has serious flaws and un-needed additions (no other halo game has had this) you people then say "use you imagination".

I mean no disrespect but are we ten years old now? Though we have influence on canon we do not make canon therefore we shouldn't be the ones making up excuses on why X and Y happened. As you guys have been saying bungie made the game so bungie should explain what the hell is going on.

You shouldn't make a game with errors only to say "it's fine they can use their imagination".

  • 07.05.2011 3:24 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101
So we were told that games> books in canon and that we should go by them because bungie made them.

But when the game clearly has serious flaws and un-needed additions (no other halo game has had this) you people then say "use you imagination".

I mean no disrespect but are we ten years old now? Though we have influence on canon we do not make canon therefore we shouldn't be the ones making up excuses on why X and Y happened. As you guys have been saying bungie made the game so bungie should explain what the hell is going on.

You shouldn't make a game with errors only to say "it's fine they can use their imagination".


I may not be a "lore master", but i have yet to read a compelling piece that totally blows Reach out of canon to make it what most people are making it. I honestly have to agree with Cmdr and Coma. The key events still happened. That is the most important part.

[Edited on 07.05.2011 3:49 PM PDT]

  • 07.05.2011 3:38 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: ix forte xi

Posted by: grey101
So we were told that games> books in canon and that we should go by them because bungie made them.

But when the game clearly has serious flaws and un-needed additions (no other halo game has had this) you people then say "use you imagination".

I mean no disrespect but are we ten years old now? Though we have influence on canon we do not make canon therefore we shouldn't be the ones making up excuses on why X and Y happened. As you guys have been saying bungie made the game so bungie should explain what the hell is going on.

You shouldn't make a game with errors only to say "it's fine they can use their imagination".


I may not be a "lore master", but i have yet to read a compelling piece that totally blows Reach out of canon to make it what most people are making it. I honestly have to agree with Cmdr and Coma. The key events still happened. That is the most important part.


the homefleet getting wiped out and 60 percent of the UNSC fleet getting called back did not happen

  • 07.05.2011 3:51 PM PDT

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the homefleet getting wiped out and 60 percent of the UNSC fleet getting called back did not happen


Okay here you go guys, my little rant

The events of the space battle in the book (to me at least) still happened. Also the POA being on Reach could've happened (though I can see the point on the ships weight) and it had time for it. Also as for why it took a month for the battle to end it comes down to this. Slipspace travel isn't instantaneous and all evidence comes down to the beginning of the battle being caused by a special group of covies, these troops used different methods and guerrilla warfare to fight the UNSC while they asked for back up and reported reach position. Now this doesn't warrant a huge force of ships (as it's one random planet) but most of the nearby ships may pick up on it and wonder what to do, some may jump to see what's up but most may hang back. The other ships jump by and go HOLY -BLAM- and report in to the mother bee, by this time I see the mother bee getting the footage from the probe showing that same planet as being a big importance to the humans. So then the covies would get a huge force to -blam!- the planet. Now this "wave" idea also ties into my idea that the horrible defense we read of Reach during TFOR was due to the UNSC forces being spread to far out. As for the Spartans there was Echo, Noble, and Gantlet at least and so I can see the UNSC not using the S2's in battle till they had to. The Op Keyes and the S2's had was of the uttermost importance and thus (since the battle was small but the UNSC knew they'd probably lost the planet later) they'd make sure the POA was prepped as fast as to get out in time and win the war. It was there last chance and since Reach was seen as lost it was for the better to keep the S2's out. Now we all know that once the big guns rolled in all was lost and the POA ditched the mission, fighting then fleeing. What we have a problem with is that it went back to reach for the package. The relationship between Keyes and Halsey was deep, very deep, and the UNSC thought of her as the most important civilian they have. I have no doubt Keyes would listen to her. Also I think that when the POA came down Keyes tried to round up as many Spartans as he could Reach (the S2's being busy or to far) and this lead to the movement of Echo, Gantlet, and Noble to the POA as they were closest. As the day dragged on it became clears to the teams that they may not make it or that the POA needed to go. Either Keyes sent for them and lost any birds before they made it, or the Spartans knew they were in to deep and stayed. By this point Keyes was waiting on Noble to make it so he could take them, course that didn't work out and by now the covies really wanted the POA gone so they had to leave. The POA leaves the planet and six goes to met with the other Spartans. Also I just remembered that in Halo 2 when Arby talks about Reach it shows the POA traveling from what looks like the surfaceHmmm?

So yeah there's my bit except it's not as long or ranty as before

[Edited on 07.05.2011 7:52 PM PDT]

  • 07.05.2011 7:13 PM PDT

Taylor Gang! 420

you don't realize that this is a GAME and it's in the FUTURE so yeah it's not irrelevant

  • 07.05.2011 7:40 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: ix forte xi

Posted by: grey101
So we were told that games> books in canon and that we should go by them because bungie made them.

But when the game clearly has serious flaws and un-needed additions (no other halo game has had this) you people then say "use you imagination".

I mean no disrespect but are we ten years old now? Though we have influence on canon we do not make canon therefore we shouldn't be the ones making up excuses on why X and Y happened. As you guys have been saying bungie made the game so bungie should explain what the hell is going on.

You shouldn't make a game with errors only to say "it's fine they can use their imagination".


I may not be a "lore master", but i have yet to read a compelling piece that totally blows Reach out of canon to make it what most people are making it. I honestly have to agree with Cmdr and Coma. The key events still happened. That is the most important part.


the homefleet getting wiped out and 60 percent of the UNSC fleet getting called back did not happen


But it did, and ultimately no one here, pro or against the plausibility of the situation, can say why or how it got to that point decisively until 343i fills in the gaps. There really is no way, nor should there be, to outright deny or dismiss the events that do occur in the game.

As forte said, the key thing is that the most important events from the SMAC generators being taken off line, Red Flag briefing, John and Cortana's test, Reach and her defenders being oblitered, etc, etc still do happen.

The in-between bits that don't quite make sense at the moment (or if at all down the line) can really only be criticized constructively as to why it seems unlikely that things can turn out that way or how it's poor story writing in the grand scheme of things.Inversely one can also come up with ways to make it fit for one's self so it does make sense. Outright scratching something off is something no one (regardless of stance on Reach) should be doing.

  • 07.05.2011 8:10 PM PDT

Posted by: dibbs089
The thing about Cryptum was that it addressed the earliest piece of the Halo timeline. Because it occurs before everything else, and because it is distanced from every other piece of canon by 100,000 years (save for the terminals) it can essentially be as imaginative and inventive as it likes. It's so detached from the rest of the canon that there is really no set standard it has to conform to.

Reach occurs right in the middle of the Human-Covenant War. We have stories and sources that detail both the Covenant and humanity before Reach, during Reach, and after Reach. It needs to make sense and adhere to the canon that came before and after it because we know that story both before and after it and making changes to that story makes changes to all canon that is set after it. The whole "we've never it seen it before so we can't know it exists" argument holds weight in certain scenarios, but not this. The FACT remains that the Covenant never mentioned stealth or teleportation technology before Reach or after it, yet during the battle (presumably) both we're employed with such sophistication and intelligence that these tactics (and the technology itself) could rival the Forerunner. We have sources to compare Reach to that occur both before and after the Battle. Reach works to directly contradict themes and limitations that were present throughout the series; you cannot simply explain that away by claiming ignorance.


Alright, Cryptum probably wasn't the best analogy I could have used :P I'd think of a better one, but nothing really comes to mind. The mindset is still the same though. Arguing against something because it's new and we've never seen it before is not a good argument. I don't see why having a previous mention of a new element in the story is as important as you are making it out to be. Halo has had numerous new pieces of equipment/technology, characters, or the addition of new races and forms for the Covenant and Flood respectively appear in the story with little or no explanation at first, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

By theme do you perhaps mean the "imitation vs. innovation" for the Covenant? If so I have a couple things to say about that, I've long thought that people have been grossly misapplying that analogy over far too much of the Covenant's culture, it strictly applies only to their development of technology and only that. It simply does not apply to their military strategy at all. And 343i has been moving to change that if you ask me. It's obvious that their tactics can often be very much innovative, like for instance look at the short stories in Evolutions, "Midnight in the Heart of Midlothian" and "Headhunters", in both of those stories the Covenant set up clever traps and used ambush sneakiness as opposed to just straight up brute force. And of course there's Reach, but that's not good to use as evidence since that is the very thing we're disputing.

If the Covenant blundered into planets most of the time, why then, solely for the Battle of Reach, did they have an advanced scouting force? Why wouldn't they do that for every planet they encountered?

I meant they blundered right in and had already given themselves away. Most of their discoveries of Human colonies were like Regret at Earth, they stumbled across it right into the midst of the UNSC or within detection range of the colony. If the colony is already aware that the Covenant knew the location of it, they will be more watchful and it will be that much harder to slip by. If you've lost the element of surprise the most feasible option to either ignore the enemy or send in your forces in an ordinary attack.

But they knew Reach was there and yet they opted for the stealth route didnt they?

I'm not sure I understand the question...Are you asking why they sent in a stealth based battle group when they knew Reach was there?

The "it was all experimental and thus can't be easily replicated" argument is really the only thing that holds any weight. It begs the question though, why would they be testing this kind of technology on their largest ship? What benefit would stealth technology have on something so large, it's presence would be picked up even if it was completely invisible (at least it would be picked up if you go by every other piece of canon besides Reach)?

I wasn't saying that it was experimental, I'm not so sure that it was. It may have been a more recent "innovation", but I think the level of competency in its usage at Reach would indicate that they already knew how that it could work and was out of any experimental phases. I think that the reason the Supercarrier is so large is because it needs the larger size to support the teleportation and stealth equipment. I definitely think that it's something the Covenant cannot easily or feasibly apply to the whole of their fleet or military might though, otherwise they would have used it more frequently.

  • 07.06.2011 7:49 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Coma please tell me what is wrong with cryptum, please do.

and you used bad examples.

An arbiter was leading during "the heart of..." and we have no idea what is going on with those headhunter elites or the year for that.


All the covenant do is rush with numbers, that is their dogma

  • 07.06.2011 7:56 AM PDT

They are all examples of the Covenant doing something other than bum rushing with large numbers, so how are they bad examples?

Seems to me, you just want to ignore/deny any evidence that the Covenant is capable of doing something different. Which is a very bad practice....

  • 07.06.2011 8:34 AM PDT