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This topic has moved here: Subject: Bungie dialogue on Halo reach still conflicts
  • Subject: Bungie dialogue on Halo reach still conflicts
Subject: Bungie dialogue on Halo reach still conflicts

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: raganok99
Funny thing is that if SC somehow gets in the Reach via cloaking, then Covenant would have won the war against humanity in 20 years ago.

And Covenant aren't exactly smart bunch, you know. Speaking militarily and scientifically...


and how does that connect at all?

As somebody said, Reach was the first (or one of the very few) planets the Covenant entered the system KNOWING humans were there.

So safety measures don't exist for the Covenant?
They only deploy hidden cloaks whenever they know of Human presence?

I'm pretty sure Reach wasn't the only planet they know Human's were on beforehand.

  • 07.06.2011 6:04 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: raganok99
Funny thing is that if SC somehow gets in the Reach via cloaking, then Covenant would have won the war against humanity in 20 years ago.

And Covenant aren't exactly smart bunch, you know. Speaking militarily and scientifically...

and how does that connect at all?

As somebody said, Reach was the first (or one of the very few) planets the Covenant entered the system KNOWING humans were there.

So safety measures don't exist for the Covenant?
They only deploy hidden cloaks whenever they know of Human presence?

I'm pretty sure Reach wasn't the only planet they know Human's were on beforehand.

Indeed it was not. I am very sure that they knew Charybdis IX was a Human colony before they attacked it. Thel knew of it before he had even left Sangheilios to lead the invasion. C-IX was an Inner colony as well, not a backwater colony. Such stealth and sabotage measures would be effective here.

[Edited on 07.06.2011 6:18 PM PDT]

  • 07.06.2011 6:18 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: raganok99
Funny thing is that if SC somehow gets in the Reach via cloaking, then Covenant would have won the war against humanity in 20 years ago.

And Covenant aren't exactly smart bunch, you know. Speaking militarily and scientifically...

and how does that connect at all?

As somebody said, Reach was the first (or one of the very few) planets the Covenant entered the system KNOWING humans were there.

So safety measures don't exist for the Covenant?
They only deploy hidden cloaks whenever they know of Human presence?

I'm pretty sure Reach wasn't the only planet they know Human's were on beforehand.

Indeed it was not. I am very sure that they knew Charybdis IX was a Human colony before they attacked it. Thel knew of it before he had even left Sangheilios to lead the invasion. C-IX was an Inner colony as well, not a backwater colony. Such stealth and sabotage measures would be effective here.
And teleporting ships across the galaxy... because as long as the spires are in place, anything's possible! Seriously, with their complete and utter mastery of everything (cloaking, eleportation, slipspace,...), why didn't they just teleport meteorites onto a collision course with the planets they were going to invade. Or, if that's too difficult , why not just teleport a star right next to the planet they wanted to destroy (they wouldn't even have to glass it!)?

  • 07.06.2011 6:26 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: raganok99
Funny thing is that if SC somehow gets in the Reach via cloaking, then Covenant would have won the war against humanity in 20 years ago.

And Covenant aren't exactly smart bunch, you know. Speaking militarily and scientifically...


and how does that connect at all?

As somebody said, Reach was the first (or one of the very few) planets the Covenant entered the system KNOWING humans were there.


I hope you're not implying that the no one in the Covenant was even remotely aware of some degree of human presence on Earth. It's true Regret may have jumped the gun as well as Cortana expressing shock that the Covenant would proceed to Earth with such an insignificant fleet.

Yet, keep in mind, prior to Operation: First Strike the Covenant intended to go to Earth with a fleet as big if not larger than the one that would go on to conquer Reach. It's a tad bit of overkill to commit so many resources to a planet with no potential hostiles in the first place.

Furthermore if their intent was to only find and secure the Ark without knowledge of humanity why not just send in a small scout force. As we know from Reach, the advanced scouting party happened to house quite a few Zealots. From Halsey's little debriefing she adds that there have been numerous reports on other worlds where such teams (comprised of Zealots or without) have been deployed whose primary purpose was to search out and find such things quickly and efficiently.

Why not do the same for Earth?

Now of course, it still was overkill back before Halo: Reach ever came out, but back then there was no existence of Covenant scout teams, particularly small ones used to recon a planet for Forerunner goods. So it was relatively safe to come up with the reasoning that it was standard procedure for the Covenant to recover artifacts with as large a force they can muster at the time. Could they have known about the Ark beforehand and thus necessitated a large fleet?

Maybe, but then (under the assumption there is no rush to beat humans to such a location) how does the Covenant discern when a potential Forerunner site is worth sending a massive battlegroup versus a smaller task force.

It's the problem that comes with adding things on the fly retroactively in story telling. While things that happen later on may not be outright broken, it leads to some instances where previous writing is loosened up a bit rather than kept tight in the face of all these new possibilities that seemingly vanished by the time of the original storyiine.

Such issues are the result of careless writing. And I don't mean it in the harshest of ways, but rather instead the writing overlooked minor issues that would strike up more minor issues down the line that results in people debating over what is essentially something that people shouldn't be making an issue out of in the first place because everything was initially fine in the first place. It is great when such discrepancies are explained away though.

The Brute power armor discrepancy is a good example though of what I'm talking about. When Brutes made the transition from 2-3 they gained power armor that possessed shields. Now from a gameplay perspective, we can all come to understand that it's a necessity to change that to balance out the hole left by Elites. Storywise though it was incredibly strange to find that all the Brutes you see went from being walking carpets to armored battle monkeys over the course of two weeks. Considering the vast number of Brutes in the Covenant along with the ongoing civil war that just started, those two weeks might as well have been overnight relatively speaking. The logistics behind producing and then distributing all that new gear to Brutes everywhere was just ridiculous and stupid. Gameplay takes precedence no doubt, but when it came to the story it was just left completely unsaid how the change went on and if it was a total recton in which all Brutes including the ones in Halo 2 should have power armor from the get go.

Then Contact Harvest came out which explained to us that Power Armor was already available to the Brutes before the war even started, yet it still didn't explain why there was none present in Halo 2, particularly with Tartarus having his own set. This in turn, led to the evidence suggesting that the Brutes in Halo 2 were rectonned to posses power armor. But then Evolutions came out, and finally the whole picture is painted a good many years later. From a cultural standard Brutes may choose to rely on their own strength and as minimal Covenant tech as possible as a show of force a la the Halo 2 and Reach Brutes, or choose to wear that power armor and be more accepting of Covenant tech a la Halo 3/ODST Brutes.

Despite being solved eventually, good story writing would have never let that be up for grabs for such varied debate back then in the first place.

And now the same concept seems to be applying here to the whole space scenario in Reach. No doubt it will be cleared in full at some point, but considering all the possibilities both sides are presenting speaks for itself as to how tight the writing was for Reach. Which is to say not very...

  • 07.06.2011 7:04 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: dibbs089
And teleporting ships across the galaxy... because as long as the spires are in place, anything's possible! Seriously, with their complete and utter mastery of everything (cloaking, teleportation, slipspace, ...), why didn't they just teleport meteorites onto a collision course with the planets they were going to invade. Or, if that's too difficult , why not just teleport a star right next to the planet they wanted to destroy (they wouldn't even have to glass it!)?

Not even anything as grand as that. We know that the Covenant have sizeable antimatter bombs. (The giant space pickle in Halo 2 was one of them) All they would have to do is teleport these onto planets and obliterate its surface, or throw them across system on collision courses. (Because now apparently they can mask all their signatures so basically would have free reign in Human Star Systems) Obviously these plans would work because the UNSC could not even detect the initial placement of the Spires somehow, nor the Covenant ship hovering over Reach that is the size of a small city!

Happy ending service. Bad story telling.

  • 07.06.2011 7:07 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

The covenant knew of bot reach and earth prior due to them having forerunner artifacts; they just never knew humans where on the planets.

i am not sure where i read that but i am sure anybody could find it.

Brutes didn't have power armor because they were guards remember? The canon on that added up perfectly because we were told that they were removed from the front lines; hence brutes only being seen as guards in halo 2 and in FS.


Now naturally you can ask why the brutes going for the shields didn't have power armor. I could retort by saying bungie didn't think of that, or the fact the brutes weren't expecting a fight/ didn't have time to get it.

Slasher did i pm you about "something"?

  • 07.06.2011 7:11 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: grey101
The covenant knew of bot reach and earth prior due to them having forerunner artifacts; they just never knew humans where on the planets.

i am not sure where i read that but i am sure anybody could find it.

Brutes didn't have power armor because they were guards remember? The canon on that added up perfectly because we were told that they were removed from the front lines; hence brutes only being seen as guards in halo 2 and in FS.


Now naturally you can ask why the brutes going for the shields didn't have power armor. I could retort by saying bungie didn't think of that, or the fact the brutes weren't expecting a fight/ didn't have time to get it.

Slasher did i pm you about "something"?


Except the situation involving the Brutes in Halo 2 as guards would not explain why those in Contact Harvest had shields along with those of both power/non power armor in On The Heels of a Fuss. Even the descriptions of the Brutes as being shock troopers would go to show that they weren't all pulled back from the frontlines. They just weren't as prolific compared to their Elite counterparts.

Also, I'm pretty sure the explanation of both Reach and Earth are non-existent in the books because in Reach's case the reason for them knowing of Reach in the first place is through the Iroquois, and that would also tell them that there's a massive build up of ships in that system once docked. Justified the arrival of such a large fleet as a result to counter their findings just fine. So book-wise there is no evidence for Reach to suggest that Covenant were unaware of human presence.

As for Earth, there was never a statement either. There was no Covenant perspective, tracking device, etc to indicate they were completely unaware either. Instead we only know that the ships massing at Unyielding were on a course for the Sol system from what Cortana figured and nothing else past that. So again, in terms of First Strike there's no book evidence to support they were completely unaware of human presence.

The only time such was stated was within Halo 2 itself. In the section where you're driving into the long tunnel right after the beach Cortana goes on to remark that she "didn't expect [them] to be there. Not [the Chief and Cortana] but all of us. Humanity on Earth...That explains why they came with such few ships."


That said I don't, nor did I ever in the first place, deny that finding both Reach (from the game's perspective not the book) and Earth (from either perspective) had in large part to do with Forerunner artifacts being detected there.


In the end whether or not there was human presence to begin with is beside the point I was making in my last point. Rather instead, it's the method of operation the Covenant choose to conduct when searching Forerunner artifact filled planets. As I said before, it's under the assumption that the Covenant was in no rush to expect competition from the humans in getting to any artifacts in question. What constitutes the difference between sending out top elite (not the species but the adjective) scout teams from small scouting parties to search and confirm the existence of Forerunner artifacts prior to calling in the cavalry if need be versus out right attempting to send hundreds of ships from the get go to a location for an artifact such as the one on Earth.

That is the gap I'm pointing out that Reach's writing has wedged open for discussion.


Now in regards to the Brutes. The situation involving the Brutes in Halo 2 as guards would not explain why those in Contact Harvest had power armor along with those of both power/non power armor in On The Heels of a Fuss. Both of which took place before the Brutes completely rose above the Elites. Your explanation would not solve the reasoning as to why such Brutes would be deployed onto Delta Halo unequipped should they have had the choice to. Even the descriptions of the Brutes as being shock troopers would go to show that they weren't all pulled back from the frontlines. They just weren't as prolific compared to their Elite counterparts. Not only that, but take a second to listen to your own logic.

Why on earth would Brutes who've had power armor long before the war with the Humans started be forced to give up power armor when held in reserve? The power armor is already sub quality compared to an Elite's combat harness, and no one else in the Covenant would be able to equip such items. There's no logical bearing as to why those who choose to wear the armor be forced to give it up.


Finally, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. I have received and acknowledged all PMs you've sent me thus far. I do not understand what you're referring to though when you say "something".

  • 07.06.2011 7:47 PM PDT


Posted by: Sigma617

Posted by: fxnavarro
B Universe forums should be renamed the Reach Hater forums.


Fair enough. If we also agree to renaming Halo Reach to Halo: Steaming pile of Canon obliterating crap.


Maybe add in a member title "Blind hater"

  • 07.09.2011 1:39 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Sigma617
Also, I request you quit trying to pick fights with me every time I voice my opinion on this forum. That sure is getting tiresome.


Well, saying those who defend Reach must have a mental disorder is annoying.

  • 07.09.2011 1:45 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Sigma617
Also, I request you quit trying to pick fights with me every time I voice my opinion on this forum. That sure is getting tiresome.


Well, saying those who defend Reach must have a mental disorder is annoying.


And just going "It ruins ALL canon" when proved otherwise.

  • 07.09.2011 1:54 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

I'm probably out of the loop here, but I haven't seen much specificity regarding these "blatant" canonical failures. I've read the Fall of Reach, and it only talks about the massive fleet that entered the Epsilon Eridani System on August 30, the final and largest attack fleet of over 300 ships.

To my knowledge, the events of Halo Reach were concerning the first two invasion forces. The first invasion force was undetected initially, and the second invasion force arrived after the destruction of the Long Night of Solace.

As for the PoA being on Reach, I believe that the Autumn landed on the planet that same day it took off, more specifically after Blue Team's successful Gamma Station mission. The reason for this landing being that Keyes likely knew the second half of Cortana was vital to the survival of humanity.

As far as I can see, save few minor inconsistencies, the game does fit the book.

[Edited on 07.09.2011 3:05 PM PDT]

  • 07.09.2011 3:04 PM PDT