Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Pillar of Autumn on Reach (Canon Analysis)
  • Subject: Pillar of Autumn on Reach (Canon Analysis)
Subject: Pillar of Autumn on Reach (Canon Analysis)

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

So, at first sight I (and many others) thought that Bungie had broken canon when we saw the PoA on Reach in the game.

After doing some quick investigation, I'm beginning to think that canon wasn't necessarily broken on the scale that was initially suspected. Here's what I found.

Consulting the book, the Covenant invasion fleet that entered the system was around 0447 hours on August 30, 2552. This falls in line with the game, as it was the third, final, and largest invasion force of the Covenant on Reach.

Blue Team was deployed and retrieved from the Pillar of Autumn for their mission around two hours later (0600 hours or so). In the book, after retrieving Blue Team, the PoA left the system and jumped to Halo. This has obviously been changed in Reach, but the canon has not been demolished.

During the game, Emile and Six deliver the Package to Keyes at around 1600 hours, almost 10 hours after Blue Team's successful mission on Gamma Station. This means that the Autumn must have landed on Aszod to retrieve the second half of Cortana, which Keyes probably knew was vital to humanity's fight against the Covenant.

So while the game changed the events of the book slightly, Blue Team's mission and timing don't have to be altered.

  • 07.11.2011 9:26 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Legendary Member

UWG

My jokes, so I don't lose them (ignore this):
ZedFish's Opinion on Sgt. Foley.
ZedFish's Forerunner Rickroll.

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
This has obviously been changed in Reach, but the canon has not been demolished.
This is the conclusion that I roll with for Reach. Changed, but not destroyed.

Thank you. It's good to see someone thinking a little more open-mindedly about the plot, and comparing it to- rather than judging it by- the book(s).

  • 07.11.2011 9:32 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Posted by: ZedFish
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
This has obviously been changed in Reach, but the canon has not been demolished.
This is the conclusion that I roll with for Reach. Changed, but not destroyed.

Thank you. It's good to see someone thinking a little more open-mindedly about the plot, and comparing it to- rather than judging it by- the book(s).

I am trying to unify the canon. I'm tired of people bickering over which canon takes precedent when in reality both can coexist as one single entity.

  • 07.11.2011 9:35 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Posted by: ZedFish
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
This has obviously been changed in Reach, but the canon has not been demolished.
This is the conclusion that I roll with for Reach. Changed, but not destroyed.

Thank you. It's good to see someone thinking a little more open-mindedly about the plot, and comparing it to- rather than judging it by- the book(s).

I am trying to unify the canon. I'm tired of people bickering over which canon takes precedent when in reality both can coexist as one single entity.


Using both book and game can you fill in the rather large time gaps in between with a logical sounding explanation as to how everything else proceeded as planned in spite of the large time gaps?

  • 07.11.2011 9:39 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias

Which it is fine as long canon does not break another canon. For instance, timeline in PoA is fine but being on ground while being not rated of atmosphere is not simply can be explained.

  • 07.11.2011 9:39 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Posted by: raganok99
Which it is fine as long canon does not break another canon. For instance, timeline in PoA is fine but being on ground while being not rated of atmosphere is not simply can be explained.

This is true. Like I said however, I didn't say the game didn't change the canon at all, however, it didn't destroy it. Perhaps the Autumn was able to land due to the drydock on Reach which assisted in landing. On Installation 04, there was nothing to assist in landing the Autumn, so it crashed.

  • 07.11.2011 9:42 PM PDT

^^^what?

  • 07.11.2011 9:42 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein


Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Posted by: ZedFish
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
This has obviously been changed in Reach, but the canon has not been demolished.
This is the conclusion that I roll with for Reach. Changed, but not destroyed.

Thank you. It's good to see someone thinking a little more open-mindedly about the plot, and comparing it to- rather than judging it by- the book(s).

I am trying to unify the canon. I'm tired of people bickering over which canon takes precedent when in reality both can coexist as one single entity.


Using both book and game can you fill in the rather large time gaps in between with a logical sounding explanation as to how everything else proceeded as planned in spite of the large time gaps?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying. Could you rephrase please?

  • 07.11.2011 9:43 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Plasma Prestige

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Posted by: ZedFish
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
This has obviously been changed in Reach, but the canon has not been demolished.
This is the conclusion that I roll with for Reach. Changed, but not destroyed.

Thank you. It's good to see someone thinking a little more open-mindedly about the plot, and comparing it to- rather than judging it by- the book(s).

I am trying to unify the canon. I'm tired of people bickering over which canon takes precedent when in reality both can coexist as one single entity.


Using both book and game can you fill in the rather large time gaps in between with a logical sounding explanation as to how everything else proceeded as planned in spite of the large time gaps?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying. Could you rephrase please?


Can you fill in the events in between the key events using both game and book and come up with a logical sounding explanation for events to still ultimately unfold the same way they do despite the time gap.

In other words, taking the events of the 30th as an example, can you come up with a reasonable explanation as to what occurred in space around Reach involving the Autumn that enabled it to drop down to Reach and pick up the package. Constantly keeping in mind the capabilities of both the UNSC and Covenant fighting for nearly a month long among other factors to consider. Such as the inability to extract Red Team, why John was in cryo, etc.

There are multiple time gaps strewn across Reach. I noticed your post in the unexplainable errors thread, and I think you've missed the shift of focus as to what's the problem. In this case it's how tight the story telling of Reach as a whole is now once everything is taken into consideration, and whether that progression is logical to be passed off as good story telling as that whole.

Another example of the mystery gaps that needs to be filled in. Halsey's Red Flag briefing, the MJOLNIR testing with Cortana, and even the authorization to divert military assets to really put the Chief to the test all still happen within the story of Reach with both book and game combined, and then finally the Autumn launching on its mission only to turn back to the doomed planet. The gap comes in with explaining how these events went on unhindered despite Reach having already gone to hell.

Do you get where I'm coming from? So utilizing both game and book (books really when you factor in Halsey's journal) can all those gaps be filled in? Can you explain the logic behind the Autumn taking off for the Red Flag mission on the 30th only to turn back to help it even though Reach had been under siege for some time?

  • 07.11.2011 10:02 PM PDT

I agree with this. Canon was changed. However it wasn't demolished as many on here have claimed it to be.

  • 07.11.2011 10:02 PM PDT

Knowledge talks, wisdom listens.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Actually, I find that I'm more invincible without pants, which is why I am not wearing any at the moment.

This should be stickied on top of the Reach forum.

  • 07.11.2011 10:07 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Posted by: Plasma Prestige

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Posted by: ZedFish
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
This has obviously been changed in Reach, but the canon has not been demolished.[/quote]This is the conclusion that I roll with for Reach. Changed, but not destroyed.

Thank you. It's good to see someone thinking a little more open-mindedly about the plot, and comparing it to- rather than judging it by- the book(s).

I am trying to unify the canon. I'm tired of people bickering over which canon takes precedent when in reality both can coexist as one single entity.


Using both book and game can you fill in the rather large time gaps in between with a logical sounding explanation as to how everything else proceeded as planned in spite of the large time gaps?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying. Could you rephrase please?


Can you fill in the events in between the key events using both game and book and come up with a logical sounding explanation for events to still ultimately unfold the same way they do despite the time gap.

In other words, taking the events of the 30th as an example, can you come up with a reasonable explanation as to what occurred in space around Reach involving the Autumn that enabled it to drop down to Reach and pick up the package. Constantly keeping in mind the capabilities of both the UNSC and Covenant fighting for nearly a month long among other factors to consider. Such as the inability to extract Red Team, why John was in cryo, etc.

There are multiple time gaps strewn across Reach. I noticed your post in the unexplainable errors thread, and I think you've missed the shift of focus as to what's the problem. In this case it's how tight the story telling of Reach as a whole is now once everything is taken into consideration, and whether that progression is logical to be passed off as good story telling as that whole.

Another example of the mystery gaps that needs to be filled in. Halsey's Red Flag briefing, the MJOLNIR testing with Cortana, and even the authorization to divert military assets to really put the Chief to the test all still happen within the story of Reach with both book and game combined, and then finally the Autumn launching on its mission only to turn back to the doomed planet. The gap comes in with explaining how these events went on unhindered despite Reach having already gone to hell.

Do you get where I'm coming from? So utilizing both game and book (books really when you factor in Halsey's journal) can all those gaps be filled in? Can you explain the logic behind the Autumn taking off for the Red Flag mission on the 30th only to turn back to help it even though Reach had been under siege for some time?

I understand now what you're saying, thanks for clarifying.

Can I do this? Probably not, at least alone. I'll address some of the points that I feel I am able to however.

For example, how did the Pillar of Autumn land on Reach? Well, there was a massive battle going on in space between the Covenant and UNSC; hundreds of ships on both sides of the conflict. I don't think it is beyond believable that the Autumn would be able to land on the planet while this massive battle was occurring. After all, the Autumn was in space while Blue Team was on Gamma Station, was it not?

Also, if you could elaborate on some of the points you made in the fourth paragraph, then I could probably address them better.

  • 07.11.2011 10:09 PM PDT

I started up the heated debate on whether the SPARTAN-II in the cryo tube near the end of Reach is really Linda.
I created the Moa XING avatar pic.
Also I earned the All Star nameplate with this submission to Week 14 All Stars http://www.bungie.net/images/News/Inline11/bwu_0415/art/likea boss.jpg

OMG. Ok if you look at the TIMELINE, The PoA landed on Reach HOURS later after Blue Team's mission.

  • 07.11.2011 10:10 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
I understand now what you're saying, thanks for clarifying.

Can I do this? Probably not, at least alone. I'll address some of the points that I feel I am able to however.

For example, how did the Pillar of Autumn land on Reach? Well, there was a massive battle going on in space between the Covenant and UNSC; hundreds of ships on both sides of the conflict. I don't think it is beyond believable that the Autumn would be able to land on the planet while this massive battle was occurring. After all, the Autumn was in space while Blue Team was on Gamma Station, was it not?

Also, if you could elaborate on some of the points you made in the fourth paragraph, then I could probably address them better.


Hmm...I don't think you quite get what I'm trying to get at, so let me try explaining it another way.

I'm not asking about how. I'm asking why. This is not so much canon breaking analysis per say, but rather instead a look at the progression of events and analysis of the story writing (and its quality) that has gone into the battle of Reach as a whole.

To elaborate on the fourth paragraph:

You have three key events that occur day by day essentially.

The Red Flag Briefing

John/Cortana's live fire exercise

The Autumn leaving for Red Flag.

Now the original timeline minus game states that these events occurred without interference of a Covenant invasion.

Add in the game, and all these events still happen on the same timeline. Same date. Same time. The only difference is that Reach has been under heavy siege by Covenant forces for the more than two weeks now.

With that said, how can the original events be explained within its new context. There's certainly no denying that the key events did not happen in both game and book. They did, period. However it's looking like rather illogical story telling. Hence my saying can you explain, using facts from both game and books (and nothing else), how these events still occur within the new context while still making perfect sound sense.

Going back to the three listed above.

You have Halsey's briefing at a Fleetcom military complex occurring in the midst of a Covenant invasion. Keep in mind that Sword Base has already been conquered by the Covenant at this point. Has been since the LNoS went down.

Next up is the AI/MJOLNIR integration test. Again, midst of Covenant attack, but you have Ackerson diverting both active military personnel and ordinance to embarrass Halsey in spite of the hell going on.

Finally you have the Autumn's launch. Reach is still under siege, but Keyes and the crew set forth on Red Flag. In spite of the importance of their mission and the state Reach is and has been in, they turn back anyway.

Now that's only dealing with the last three days of Reach. There are more lapses within the story. In any case with that in mind do understand my position and what I'm asking? I'm not looking at unexplainable errors in canon, but instead the story writing inconsistencies surrounding the story of Reach falling.

  • 07.11.2011 10:36 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Okay, I understand better now. You're points are good ones. The confluence of these events in the game and book don't make a whole bunch of sense.

As for Operation Red Flag, here's my own speculation. The mission was only cancelled after the third invasion fleet entered the star system. Furthermore, the final invasion fleet was by far the largest, of over 300 Covenant vessels. I'm not sure how many ships there were in the second invasion force, but if you have any idea, I'd appreciate it.

My conclusion (although not very well supported) is that the PoA only decided to abort the Red Flag mission when the final invasion force of Reach entered the Epsilon Eridani system.

However, your post brings up an interesting point. I think what we need to do now is to dissect the dates very meticulously and analyze what was going on on Reach during that specific time.

As for Ackerson diverting military assets, it isn't difficult to believe he would do anything to discredit Halsey, even admist an invasion of Covenant on Reach. He was pretty unstable in the first place to send fire missiles at the UNSC's greatest assets (Spartans).

  • 07.11.2011 10:57 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Posted by: raganok99
Which it is fine as long canon does not break another canon. For instance, timeline in PoA is fine but being on ground while being not rated of atmosphere is not simply can be explained.

This is true. Like I said however, I didn't say the game didn't change the canon at all, however, it didn't destroy it. Perhaps the Autumn was able to land due to the drydock on Reach which assisted in landing. On Installation 04, there was nothing to assist in landing the Autumn, so it crashed.

Posted by: AddiMaTiC
^^^what?

When PoA made emergency landing on 04, it didn't get destroyed. Reactor and electronics were intact, as well as many warthogs and a longsword. And PoA was damaged while doing that. So while it can't hover on it's own, it can slow down it's descent, probably using "UNSC hovering devices" that frigates use. So I see no reason why PoA couldn't land on drydock-thing designed for cruisers, when it doesn't have hull breaches and being shot at.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 12:11 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 12:10 AM PDT