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This topic has moved here: Subject: Warning/Ban Messages
  • Subject: Warning/Ban Messages
Subject: Warning/Ban Messages
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Posted by: deltahalo UK
If they're 'rule enforcers', I'd argue that they shouldn't be posting at all.
Likewise, if all they do is enforce rules, to the point they're encouraged to make ban messages mere quotes from ye olde list of rules, why does the salmon text etc. persist?

  • 07.12.2011 7:51 AM PDT

Now selling HHDDVVDDBVDs. HD DVDs, but with better marketing.

Posted by: ShadowLegacy
Still, each ban should be properly explained. If every ban was properly explained there would be no need for arguments.


Have you been here?

  • 07.12.2011 7:51 AM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: deltahalo UK
If they're 'rule enforcers', I'd argue that they shouldn't be posting at all.

I'd quit. No hesitation.

My participation in the community is more important (to me) than my service to it. If I were forced to give up one, it would be this role.

  • 07.12.2011 7:54 AM PDT
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Posted by: Recon Number 54
I'd quit. No hesitation.
Who wouldn't! :|

  • 07.12.2011 7:56 AM PDT
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Posted by: Skibur
Posted by: Recon Number 54
I'd quit. No hesitation.
Who wouldn't! :|
The considerable number who never post anyway, perhaps?

[Edited on 07.12.2011 7:58 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 7:58 AM PDT
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Posted by: Telec
Remember kids: when Uncle Delta tells you he has sweeties, he isn't lying.

Now get in the van.


The Black Chapter


Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: deltahalo UK
If they're 'rule enforcers', I'd argue that they shouldn't be posting at all.

I'd quit. No hesitation.

My participation in the community is more important (to me) than my service to it. If I were forced to give up one, it would be this role.


Exactly.
You're part of the community (well, some of you are), so you know who does what, why, and with what intent. That should be utilised to make fair calls on the individual.
One can argue that equality is more important than individual user-influenced action, but then you ask why the over 50's have cheaper car insurance. Its the same principle.

  • 07.12.2011 7:58 AM PDT
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You also need to ask yourself if you value and want to hold on to the people who have been here for ages and invested so much time into this community...

I'll say it again, banning anyone, but especially older members does a lot more harm than good.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:01 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:00 AM PDT

',:|

Posted by: Skibur
[Above]
What, as if they're always innocent?

[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:03 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:02 AM PDT
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They should be given the benifit of the doubt, like anyone else who isn't obviously setting out to break the rules.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:15 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:04 AM PDT

',:|

So, you want bans to be given and determined by intention?

Explain that a bit more, because I don't see your point yet.



Older members know the rules.
They've been around them for ages.

There's no way an older member can say they were unintentionally breaking the rules...

I'm missing something.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:11 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:07 AM PDT

Posted by: Skibur
They should, like everyone who isn't obviously setting out to break the rules, should be given the benifit of the doubt.
Foman said that to me once.
I thought it was a pretty cool thing to say.

Maybe you two are the same!
(*has 24 hours to live now*)

  • 07.12.2011 8:07 AM PDT

Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
So, you want bans to be given and determined by intention?
Dunno what other people think, but I think intention should matter. During a recent ban I was told intention doesn't matter because it's not the moderator's job to look at intent.

But then I made a thread about it and other moderator's said intent should be taken into account.

Personally I think intent is very important. I think it should always be considered.

  • 07.12.2011 8:09 AM PDT
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Posted by: Telec
Remember kids: when Uncle Delta tells you he has sweeties, he isn't lying.

Now get in the van.


The Black Chapter


Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
So, you want bans to be given and determined by intention?


Being a clumsy bugger and accidentally tripping up and falling into someone who then falls over and breaks their arm is not half as bad as being a malicious one who just pushes someone over.

  • 07.12.2011 8:09 AM PDT

Now selling HHDDVVDDBVDs. HD DVDs, but with better marketing.

Posted by: deltahalo UK
[...] but then you ask why the over 50's have cheaper car insurance. Its the same principle.


No. It isn't the same at all. Over 50's getting the same tickets as new drivers is the same principle. Car insurance is not.

  • 07.12.2011 8:10 AM PDT
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Posted by: Telec
Remember kids: when Uncle Delta tells you he has sweeties, he isn't lying.

Now get in the van.


The Black Chapter


Posted by: Viva la Vache
Posted by: deltahalo UK
[...] but then you ask why the over 50's have cheaper car insurance. Its the same principle.


No. It isn't the same at all. Over 50's getting the same tickets as new drivers is the same principle. Car insurance is not.


Sure it is.
Think of the Moderators as the insurance company.
They could paint everyone with the same brush, set a certain price (tolerance) and happily go about their business with everyone on an equal footing, or they could reward the careful, experienced posters with lower premiums (benefit of the doubt, explanations etc) and punish those prone to accidents due to reckless posting (trolls etc).

Putting everyone in the same basket would have an adverse effect on the well behaved, because it clearly doesn't earn them any leeway.

If you paid the same insurance as a reckless driver, and knew that would always be the case, where is your incentive to not claim?

[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:16 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:16 AM PDT

Hi I'm RT and I like to argue!

Posted by: deltahalo UK
If you paid the same insurance as a reckless driver, and knew that would always be the case, where is your incentive to not claim?
Why am I not surprised to see that you've turned this into a car insurance analogy? haha

  • 07.12.2011 8:19 AM PDT
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Posted by: Telec
Remember kids: when Uncle Delta tells you he has sweeties, he isn't lying.

Now get in the van.


The Black Chapter


Posted by: RighteousTyrant
Posted by: deltahalo UK
If you paid the same insurance as a reckless driver, and knew that would always be the case, where is your incentive to not claim?
Why am I not surprised to see that you've turned this into a car insurance analogy? haha


I consult the group to check 'what's hot' for the day before I dream of posting in the mains.
Its about image.

  • 07.12.2011 8:22 AM PDT

',:|


Posted by: deltahalo UK

Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
So, you want bans to be given and determined by intention?


Being a clumsy bugger and accidentally tripping up and falling into someone who then falls over and breaks their arm is not half as bad as being a malicious one who just pushes someone over.
True, but you've broken someone's arm both ways.
He isn't any less hurt because it was an accident.


Moderators aren't like an insurance company, we don't pay them anything to back us up if we need it.
They aren't risk management.
They're moderators.
They're the police.

If bad people do bad things, they get punished.
If normal people do bad things without knowing it, they get warned. That's punishment around here.
If good old people who know everything about not doing bad things do bad things, they should know better, they get punished.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:23 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:22 AM PDT
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Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
If bad people do bad things, they get punished.
If normal people do bad things without knowing it, they get warned. That's punishment around here.
If good old people who know everything about not doing bad things do bad things, they should know better, they get punished.
I don't think I've ever seen someone so thoroughly restate the assumptions on which a discussion is based while so brilliantly avoiding the actual point at hand. Bravo.

  • 07.12.2011 8:23 AM PDT

Now selling HHDDVVDDBVDs. HD DVDs, but with better marketing.

Posted by: deltahalo UK
[Well thought out car insurance metaphor]


I disagree. Since car insurance doesn't necessarily act as enforcement for rules or laws but only reacts to them, I think a better example is police enforcement of traffic laws.

If I am a good driver but decide to go ten miles over the speed limit, I am fined the exact same amount ($100 dollars in MA) as another driver with a history of speeding. The only difference is that habitual speeders can have their right to drive suspended for certain periods of time corresponding to their history of offenses.

Where speeding tickets and other moving violations are warnings and license suspensions are bans, this is a more apt metaphor to how our forums do and should work.

  • 07.12.2011 8:24 AM PDT

OMG get the flag!!!!

I love Bungie! and hope 343 takes good care of Halo!

Thank You. They are being a bit careless.

  • 07.12.2011 8:24 AM PDT
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Posted by: Viva la Vache
I decide
The key point.

The instance that sparked this was a user acting in good faith, to the best of his ability, in a near completely non-disruptive manner. He didn't decide to break any rules. He managed to break them despite being a member with a staggering level of mostly constructive activity, and was punished for it in the least helpful of ways.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:28 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:26 AM PDT
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Posted by: Telec
Remember kids: when Uncle Delta tells you he has sweeties, he isn't lying.

Now get in the van.


The Black Chapter


Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx


They aren't risk management.
They're moderators.
They're the police.


They are risk management. If they weren't, why do they post? Why are they active? Sure its because they are members like the rest of us, but a by-product of that is that they understand the community much more. A natural understanding of a forum and its occupants brings in risk-management even if you don't realise it.
Some threads get locked, some threads on the same subject survive for many pages - A mod has decided one was breaking the rules or had been pulled away from topic, whilst the other that may technically be breaking the rules, is remaining civil and thus allows its continuation.

  • 07.12.2011 8:28 AM PDT
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Posted by: deltahalo UK
Posted by: Viva la Vache
Posted by: deltahalo UK
[...] but then you ask why the over 50's have cheaper car insurance. Its the same principle.


No. It isn't the same at all. Over 50's getting the same tickets as new drivers is the same principle. Car insurance is not.


Sure it is.
Think of the Moderators as the insurance company.
That's where your having issues, delta. Insurance companies do risk management, not rule enforcement. They're two totally different animals. While there are some similarities in certain situations, they really aren't the same thing.

  • 07.12.2011 8:29 AM PDT

',:|

I'mma make a response, turn the page.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:41 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:30 AM PDT