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This topic has moved here: Subject: Warning/Ban Messages
  • Subject: Warning/Ban Messages
Subject: Warning/Ban Messages

And on the seven7h day......

I agree, I don't like when I get warnings(I've only gotten one) or a ban that only says two or three words.

  • 07.12.2011 8:32 AM PDT

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Posted by: elmicker
The instance that sparked this was a user acting in good faith, to the best of his ability, in a near completely non-disruptive manner. He didn't decide to break any rules. He managed to break them despite being a member with a staggering level of mostly constructive activity, and was punished for it in the least helpful of ways.


Does it matter if I intentionally go ten miles per hour over the speed limit or unintentionally follow the flow of traffic on a busy highway and possibly passing a car here or there? (No one really drives the speed limit in MA, I can't speak for other states though.)

My father fought a ticket with the reasoning that he was just doing what others were doing. He wasn't intentionally trying to break the law. Did he still get a ticket? Yes.

The reason intent is an awful way to pass judgement is that I can wake up one day, decide that because I am a good member on this site, hardly ever breaking the rules, that I can have a bit of fun in the Flood. I go in and decide to troll kids hard. Oh, looks like I might be getting reported for this, but its OK I have my defense all ready...

"But officer, I didn't do it on purpose, honest." Puppy dog eyes and all. I may get away with it in your system. This instance leads to others thinking: "Hey, that Viva kid completely trolled and got away with it. Let's troll as well and see what happens." Your system has inadvertently lead to more of the problems it is designed to stop.

  • 07.12.2011 8:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: Telec
Remember kids: when Uncle Delta tells you he has sweeties, he isn't lying.

Now get in the van.


The Black Chapter


Posted by: Viva la Vache

Where speeding tickets and other moving violations are warnings and license suspensions are bans, this is a more apt metaphor to how our forums do and should work.


You are right in that.



If I am a good driver but decide to go ten miles over the speed limit, I am fined the exact same amount ($100 dollars in MA) as another driver with a history of speeding. The only difference is that habitual speeders can have their right to drive suspended for certain periods of time corresponding to their history of offenses.


Habitual speeders get harsher punishments. Much like habitual trolls get harsher bans.
What I'm getting at is that if there is clear evidence a member is well behaved, that a post that may break the rules is accidentally submitted, by all means warn them, but they clearly deserve to be told why in some detail as the rule may well have eluded them.

The insurance metaphor was an attempt to show how I feel the forums should work. Behave well, be productive, and you are recognised as such (as with insurance good driving is rewarded). If there is no reward, the only incentive is the avoidance of a ban (which a good number of people attempt to circumvent with alts anyway).
Its not always about simply punishing those who have broken the rules. Its about trying to stop people breaking them in the first place. The best way to do that is incentivisation. Benefit of the doubt, or at least proper explanation, being treated as though the mods know it was a mistake and feel bad about having to issue a wan/ban to a well behaved user is preferential to simple "Spam" or "Off-Topic".
I have been sent a message in the past by a mod who carpet banned (I think this was waaay back in 07) who apologised that he had to ban me, but I was in the wrong thread and replying to something I shouldn't, even if my replies were civil. Messages like that make the user feel positive and learn from the experience to become better members of the community.

In that instance I was a good member simply posting in the wrong area. I doubt others intentionally breaking the rules got the same apology message. What I see as a perk of behaving well.



[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:46 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:41 AM PDT
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If we really want to extend this long-dead, utterly inappropriate metaphor, he was going 10mph over the limit in a 60 zone that had all the 60 signs taken down, the limit reduced to 50, no new signs put up, and after being caught he was simply sent a penalty notice and a note saying "You were going too fast."

  • 07.12.2011 8:47 AM PDT
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I hate to go down this road, but there have been cases of moderators doing almost the exact same thing that members have been banned for.

In this case the moderator would be given the benefit of the doubt because you would think that they of all people would know the rules. You would assume that they would not intentionally break the rules.

I'm suggesting that this should apply to more people than just the moderators.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:51 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:49 AM PDT

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We do offer some reason to be a good user on the forums: Titles. Look how much title or other incentives lead to a feeling of higher authority. I think titles are wonderful, but some people (not Skibur specifically, but his post was the most accessible way to make the point) view them as hierarchical standings instead of rewards for good behavior.

This isn't a website designed with the sole intent of having happy satisfied members. It is a location where we can come together and talk about Bungie, Halo, Myth, etc. (with the exception of the Flood). Happiness, it seems, is always a goal, but the experience Bungie is offering with its forums is a privilege, not a right. Punishment is how you moderate the use of a privilege. Reward is how you moderate the use of a right.
Posted by: Skibur
Mythic brother, I have been banned recently for threads that were posted completely without malice. Do you think that helped my case at all?

  • 07.12.2011 8:51 AM PDT
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Well I see Bungie.net as a positive experience to be enjoyed. I'm here because I want to be here, and if I am unhappy with the way I am treated by Bungie then I will leave.

I think Bungie would rather have their fans happy to be here than otherwise.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 8:54 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 8:53 AM PDT
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:)


Posted by: Skibur
I hate to go down this road, but there have been cases of moderators doing almost the exact same thing that members have been banned for.

In this case the moderator would be given the benefit of the doubt because you would think that they of all people would know the rules. You would assume that they would not intentionally break the rules.

I'm suggesting that this should apply to more people than just the moderators.

Yeah but generally the excuse given is 'It's just a joke', and what the Moderator did is simply forgotten.

  • 07.12.2011 8:54 AM PDT

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Posted by: elmicker
If we really want to extend this long-dead, utterly inappropriate metaphor, he was going 10mph over the limit in a 60 zone that had all the 60 signs taken down, the limit reduced to 50, no new signs put up, and after being caught he was simply sent a penalty notice and a note saying "You were going too fast."


I think you may be stretching that metaphor a little bit too far. More aptly: he was speeding in a zone where the limits were posted very nicely at the top of the forum.

Skibur, I cannot speak to why Ninjas are given leeway in those situations. I think that they should be punished as well, instead of extending the same leeway to "senior" users.

  • 07.12.2011 8:54 AM PDT
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Posted by: Viva la Vache
I think that they should be punished as well, instead of extending the same leeway to "senior" users.
Sorry, I meant to add on to the end of it. It should either be extended to everyone, or apply to no one at all.

  • 07.12.2011 8:56 AM PDT

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Posted by: Skibur
I hate to go down this road, but there have been cases of moderators doing almost the exact same thing that members have been banned for.

In this case the moderator would be given the benefit of the doubt because you would think that they of all people would know the rules. You would assume that they would not intentionally break the rules.

I'm suggesting that this should apply to more people than just the moderators.

Moderators intentionally spam, where spam is almost identical to posts that others have been banned for, all the time.

  • 07.12.2011 8:57 AM PDT

',:|

Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: Viva la Vache
I decide
The key point.

The instance that sparked this was a user acting in good faith, to the best of his ability, in a near completely non-disruptive manner. He didn't decide to break any rules. He managed to break them despite being a member with a staggering level of mostly constructive activity, and was punished for it in the least helpful of ways.
Let's leave out interpretation. He broke a rule, and was given a warning.

His punishment doesn't need to help except to show him what he did wrong and to deter him from further deviant behavior.


Posted by: Skibur
In this case the moderator would be given the benefit of the doubt because you would think that they of all people would know the rules. You would assume that they would not intentionally break the rules.

I'm suggesting that this should apply to more people than just the moderators.
On the contrary, considering "they of all people would know the rules," they should be given no leeway whatsoever, it is inexcusable. I assume that any rule breaking would be in full knowledge of the rules.

After all, they're moderators.


Applying this to everyone, no one gets leeway, and everyone gets punished for what they do wrong.

I don't think I can say anything else.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 9:08 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 9:00 AM PDT
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Posted by: Viva la Vache
I think you may be stretching that metaphor a little bit too far. More aptly: he was speeding in a zone where the limits were posted very nicely at the top of the forum.
You're rather overstating the clarity of the explanations of exactly what the bungie universe and community forums are for. The only current explanations I can find are hidden [s]four[/s] two clicks away from the "top of the forum", and overlap significantly. The forums used to have much more clearly defined, much more appropriate and logical purposes. My analogy was fine.

ed: found a quicker path.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 9:06 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 9:04 AM PDT
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Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
Let's leave out interpretation. He broke a rule, and was given a warning.

His punishment doesn't need to help except to show him what he did wrong and to deter him from further deviant behavior.
What the -blam!- are you even smoking? Have you even read this thread?

  • 07.12.2011 9:05 AM PDT
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Again, I hate to do this, but Spartain Ken has been banned and he's a PERFECT example for the intent argument.

Sure he posts a lot, but he LOVES this place. He's had a really hard time recently from a lot of people and it's rally a shame that he's suffered for it. He's been let down.

I don't know the specifics of his latest ban, but it's easy to assume that it was for his latest thread about a script being made to hide his posts. Put yourself in his shoes. He's spending his time on these forums trying his best in his own way to enjoy it with this community and he's been punished for it.

I don't blame him for coming back angry or not coming back at all. A perfect case of bans doing a lot more harm than good.

imo.

  • 07.12.2011 9:06 AM PDT

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It's sad to see, but it happens. The only good thing that he/she (No offence, I just don't like being wrong) can do in response to this is take away that -blam!- happens. It is true that a thread like that may have fallen through the cracks at another time, but it didn't, and the internet is not a nice place.

I doubt his ban will be long; however, noting his very recent warning, he may be gone for a while. In any case, I still feel intent should not affect the judgement of moderation teams.

  • 07.12.2011 9:11 AM PDT
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It's just a shame that someone can just want to be heard and accepted and only ever get ridiculed and ignored in return and then end up being punished on top and in spite of it all.

  • 07.12.2011 9:13 AM PDT
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Posted by: Skibur
It's just a shame that someone can just want to be heard and accepted and only ever get ridiculed and ignored in return and then end up being punished on top and in spite of it all.
The Skibur Story: Coming to a cinema near you, Fall 2013

  • 07.12.2011 9:14 AM PDT

',:|


Posted by: Skibur
He's spending his time on these forums trying his best in his own way to enjoy it with this community and he's been punished for it.
"In his own way" entails repeatedly breaking the rules.
So he got banned.

IMO, intentions don't matter.
Is that what all of this comes down to?

  • 07.12.2011 9:17 AM PDT

Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
Applying this to everyone, no one gets leeway, and everyone gets punished for what they do wrong.
Great. Now do you set the level of punishment at that currently given to the worst repeat offenders, and permaban every single member who is found spamming because there no leeway and everyone must be punished the same and therefore because some members have been perma'd for spamming everyone must be?

Or do you go the other way and apply the bare minimum and only ever hand out three day bans, and therefore I can spam for as long as I like until I get caught every three days forever? After all you can't be showing any leeway, and punishing someone more based on their history would be doing exactly that!

  • 07.12.2011 9:18 AM PDT

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Posted by: Nerd Boi
Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
Applying this to everyone, no one gets leeway, and everyone gets punished for what they do wrong.
Great. Now do you set the level of punishment at that currently given to the worst repeat offenders, and permaban every single member who is found spamming because there no leeway and everyone must be punished the same and therefore because some members have been perma'd for spamming everyone must be?

Or do you go the other way and apply the bare minimum and only ever hand out three day bans, and therefore I can spam for as long as I like until I get caught every three days forever? After all you can't be showing any leeway, and punishing someone more based on their history would be doing exactly that!


Every system has its flaws. The current moderation system works just fine. Intent should not change current moderation. However frequent offenses should result in bans, as the current system denotes.

  • 07.12.2011 9:24 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: Skibur
he's a PERFECT example for the intent argument.
Actually, it's no example at all. And perhaps you should avoid speculating on the specifics of a ban you know nothing about.

All you're doing is creating a hypothetical example and pretending it's a real one as a way to make whatever point you're trying to make. But doing so is a disingenuous way to argue and proves nothing at all.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 9:27 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 9:26 AM PDT
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Well then, if I'm wrong I'm wrong...

Let's just say my post was hypothetical ;)

Please don't tell me I've been trying to stick up for a troll :/
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 9:29 AM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 9:28 AM PDT

Posted by: Viva la Vache
Every system has its flaws. The current moderation system works just fine. Intent should not change current moderation. However frequent offenses should result in bans, as the current system denotes.
Of course it should. If right now elmicker was to call me an upside down convict it is flaming. Pure and simple. He is calling me names. In a system with no consideration of intent, he should be banned. No question about it, just remove him and be done with it.

Except that'd be stupid, as it would clearly be a bit of friendly banter with no malice.

  • 07.12.2011 9:30 AM PDT

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Posted by: Skibur
Please don't tell me I've been trying to stick up for a troll :/
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.


I hate to kick a guy when he is down, so please do not take this as pointedly as it will sound:

That is a PERFECT example of why intent should not be used in moderation judgements.

  • 07.12.2011 9:41 AM PDT