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Subject: So I re-read TFOR

It's been like 8 years since I've read that book last and i forgot a few details that made the book kick ass. After re-reading The Fall Of Reach it is very very clear that Halo Reach's story sucked monkey nuts and isnt worthy of being cannon compared to Eric Nylunds story. Ipso facto it might as well have never been made. The end.

  • 07.12.2011 12:45 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Kick-ass book is kick ass!

  • 07.12.2011 12:48 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Meh, the ending for TFoR was terrible.

  • 07.12.2011 1:03 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

I remember it being the intro of Halo:CE.

But.... that's like..... your opinion, man

  • 07.12.2011 1:10 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

You're creating a false dichotomy.

  • 07.12.2011 1:11 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Well, I see Spartans fighting in a city on the cover, I was expecting that. Nylund then went "LOL FGT NOPE, SPACE BATTLE!"

  • 07.12.2011 1:11 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Because the space battles are as every bit as important as the ground-side battles.

That's the real relationship in the Battle of Reach.

Dependency.

How each each unit was fighting to keep each other alive, if either one failed they would have all failed. The Spartans did their best to protect the Generators while the navy did their best to prevent any more incoming enemy troops to Reach.

The biggest tragedy, how these Spartans had trained nearly all their lives to be the defenders of humanity and in the end, they couldn't even save their home. They did everything they could as a soldier in the field but it's because of the incredible odds against them, they failed. Forced to retreat for their own lives. It really was a tragedy.

The navel aspect depicts how at any one moment they could be blown to a bazallion pieces, yet the crew in these ships manage to work just to provide as much hope as possible. It shows how every one of these crewmen were heroes to humanity. Fighting to the end.

The Mac Stations being the symbol of Reach's military might. The real weapon against the covenant. Both these units fought tooth and nail to keep this symbol working effectively. When each Mac Platform fell, you can really feel for these characters.

The Covenant as mercy-less genocidal foes. Really went all out, no stops agaisn't humanity and so on.

If you see this as all as "terrible writing" because it wasn't the bit in the cover art as you expected well then so be it.

Have fun enjoying your watered down version of Reach and it's Courageous Noble Team. Clearly space battles aren't very important.

  • 07.12.2011 1:28 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Have fun enjoying your watered down version of Reach and it's Courageous Noble Team. Clearly space battles aren't very important.


Okay, never said space battles weren't important, but at the very least Nylund could've shown some ground engagements in The Fall of Reach instead of waiting for First Strike. You guys take any negative opinion about The Fall of Reach way to personally.

  • 07.12.2011 1:31 PM PDT

I personally prefer the book canon. Makes more sense.

  • 07.12.2011 1:33 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ninjakenzen
Have fun enjoying your watered down version of Reach and it's Courageous Noble Team. Clearly space battles aren't very important.


Okay, never said space battles weren't important, but at the very least Nylund could've shown some ground engagements in The Fall of Reach instead of waiting for First Strike. You guys take any negative opinion about The Fall of Reach way to personally.

Well at least it's in First Strike.
I think Eric Nylund did an amazing job with TFOR novel. How he covered aspects of Halo before he knew this series was gonna explode with the amount of intricacy that he did.

I mean he started with the whole beginning of the S-II projects and gave character and atmosphere to so many settings and characters and kept the ending faithful to the beginning of CE.

Do keep in mind this book came out before CE, had he known this game would explode in popularity I'm sure more time would have been given to him to fix any oversights.

So for you to say he had a "terrible" ending because you were expecting the cover of TFOR and got space battles instead is just.

-_-

[Edited on 07.12.2011 1:45 PM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 1:39 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: Kyle Knight
I personally prefer the book canon. Makes more sense.

It makes sense that when lots (was it hundreds?) of covie dropships fly towards SMAC generators, skyhawks and wombats aren't scrambled to intercept?

  • 07.12.2011 1:39 PM PDT

“We are the Mirratord. We strike with speed and stealth. Our enemies will not see their deaths. They will not know their fate. In darkness, we will see light. In light, we will see darkness. No matter the location, we will see victory. If we fail, no one will know. Like a ghost, our presence is a mystery. For the honor of the mirratord" join the Mirratord

I personally thought that the book was horrible

  • 07.12.2011 1:47 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ninjakenzen
Have fun enjoying your watered down version of Reach and it's Courageous Noble Team. Clearly space battles aren't very important.


Okay, never said space battles weren't important, but at the very least Nylund could've shown some ground engagements in The Fall of Reach instead of waiting for First Strike. You guys take any negative opinion about The Fall of Reach way to personally.

Well at least it's in First Strike.
I think Eric Nylund did an amazing job with TFOR novel. How he covered aspects of Halo before he knew this series was gonna explode with the amount of intricacy that he did.

I mean he started with the whole beginning of the S-II projects and gave character and atmosphere to so many settings and characters and kept the ending faithful to the beginning of CE.

Do keep in mind this book came out before CE, had he known this game would explode in popularity I'm sure more time would have been given to him.

So for you to say he had a "terrible" ending because you were expecting the cover of TFOR and got space battles instead is just.

-_-


I have said I enjoyed the parts of the book about The Spartan-II's origins and their missions prior to Reach. I apologize I found the ending to be a tad underwhelming. Each battle the UNSC fought had two fronts, ground and space. on the ground, the UNSC would wage a defiant campaign and hand the Covenant their asses. Of course it mattered little, space was the deciding factor.

However on reach, I expected more of a fight. I get all the symbolism and such you talk about, I do. I still think Reach falling is a breathtaking experience and one that really shapes the Halo lore. That said, I expected more of a fight on Reach of all places. There was the potential for a massive battle for this world. Instead we get -blam!- in space and -blam!- on the ground. Halo: Reach is criticized for failing to show Reach as a huge military superpower, but Reach barely felt like that in the books either.

I don't love everything about Reach, the timeline could've fit better, the characters could've been developed better, and the sense of scale could've been better. However, I see more in it than you do, and you see more in TFoR than I do.

It's frustrating that anyone who has a positive opinion about Halo: Reach is labeled many things, retards, idiots, and then their own fandom is called into question. I remember one time in the Reach Forum where folks were discussing The Fall of Reach. I mentioned how I thought the beginning and middle were good, but the ending fell flat for me. Some idiot then said, "I know that's your opinion, but..." as if I was wrong about my own opinion.

So yeah, sorry I DARE be disappointed with TFoR.

  • 07.12.2011 1:50 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Have fun enjoying your watered down version of Reach and it's Courageous Noble Team. Clearly space battles aren't very important.
Everything you said was perfect, and then you said this ridiculous line.

As you said, the ground effort was just as important as the space effort. Noble Team's sacrifice directly led to the discovery of the first Halo. Almost every member sacrificed his/her life for the greater good. Jorge took out a Supercarrier, Kat died after partially decrypting the data that Noble Team extracted with Cortana, and Emile, Carter, and Six all died to ensure the vital data reached the Pillar of Autumn.

Every single Spartan on Reach was a hero. The Spartan IIs that put their lives in front of generators, and the brave sailors who put their ships in front of the Covenant.

  • 07.12.2011 1:53 PM PDT

You need to remember though, Bungie owned the rights to Halo so the game canon is more important then the book canon.

  • 07.12.2011 2:00 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Each battle the UNSC fought had two fronts, ground and space. on the ground, the UNSC would wage a defiant campaign and hand the Covenant their asses. Of course it mattered little, space was the deciding factor
That's how battles worked, plain and simple. The UNSC could hold their own against ground forces, but the Covenant completely outmatched the UNSC in space, and for the battle of a planet, space is very important. In reality however, both the ground and space success would have been key to victory.

That said, I expected more of a fight on Reach of all places. There was the potential for a massive battle for this world. Instead we get -blam!- in space and -blam!- on the ground. Halo: Reach is criticized for failing to show Reach as a huge military superpower, but Reach barely felt like that in the books either.
I don't know what you're talking about at all. In the novel, there were hundreds of UNSC and Covenant ships wailing on each other. If that isn't a big battle, then I don't know what is. Same on the ground, with thousands of ground forces assaulting generators and establishing anti-air equipment.

It's frustrating that anyone who has a positive opinion about Halo: Reach is labeled many things, retards, idiots, and then their own fandom is called into question.
I have a positive opinion on both. After I did some of my own investigation, I learned that the events of the novel and game fit together like a puzzle, although not perfectly always. You don't have to like one or the other, and forcefully mold a dichotomy.

  • 07.12.2011 2:00 PM PDT


Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: Kyle Knight
I personally prefer the book canon. Makes more sense.

It makes sense that when lots (was it hundreds?) of covie dropships fly towards SMAC generators, skyhawks and wombats aren't scrambled to intercept?


My main issue with the ground battle.

In the books, the ground battle feels like a half-assed rush defense by the UNSC. NO air support launched or fielded(bar a SINGLE flight of longswords which bomb the hell out of friendlies), the generator bunkers are half-dried concrete, the areas that should have the most defenses are overrun REALLY DAMN QUICK.

I mean, all these points on the planet being assaulted at the same time by hundreds of dropships (total that made it to the pole, taking HEAVY loses) within 2-3 hours, and they would have had to regroup to figure out what was remaining, and travel time (and search time, as they wouldn't know where everything was.)

Why didn't the ground forces on Reach get mobilized as soon as the Covenant enter the system? There is no reason for that.

Total Available Military Manpower: 385,421,100
Total Land Assets: 58,430
Total Naval Assets: 1,209 (T); 75 (X)
Total Air Assets: 11,050
Serviceable Airports: 1,246


You are telling me that defensive force fell within 2, maybe three hours, to a few hundred dropships? I mean, come on, UNSC typically won nearly all ground battles. Yet when they have home-field advantage, know where their enemies are, have fortifications AND numbers, they get their asses handed to them instantly? Doesn't make sense at all.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 2:07 PM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 2:04 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
I don't know what you're talking about at all. In the novel, there were hundreds of UNSC and Covenant ships wailing on each other. If that isn't a big battle, then I don't know what is. Same on the ground, with thousands of ground forces assaulting generators and establishing anti-air equipment.


I meant it didn't feel much like a military superpower in how badly it got beaten. The battle in space was big, denying that is ignorance. As for the ground, those defensing the generators didn't do a very good job and the UNSC communication structure broke down way too easily,see the Charlie Company bombing.

  • 07.12.2011 2:04 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
I don't know what you're talking about at all. In the novel, there were hundreds of UNSC and Covenant ships wailing on each other. If that isn't a big battle, then I don't know what is. Same on the ground, with thousands of ground forces assaulting generators and establishing anti-air equipment.


I meant it didn't feel much like a military superpower in how badly it got beaten. The battle in space was big, denying that is ignorance. As for the ground, those defensing the generators didn't do a very good job and the UNSC communication structure broke down way too easily,see the Charlie Company bombing.


^^^^ see my last post lol.

  • 07.12.2011 2:06 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra

Okay, I see you POV and I respect your opinion. Apologies for the confrontational approach.

Posted by: Plasma Prestige

Sorry, that end part was because I let my emotions get the better of me. I personally think Halo:Reach campaign is an insult to the novel. You're right though, Noble Team are heroes. It's just taking into account everything about Halo canon. The way they've been portrayed shouldn't even exist.

[Edited on 07.12.2011 2:11 PM PDT]

  • 07.12.2011 2:08 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra

Okay, I see you POV and I respect you opinion. Apologies for the confrontational approach.

Posted by: Plasma Prestige

Sorry, that end part was because I let my emotions get the better of me. I personally think Halo:Reach campaign is an insult to the novel. You're right though, Noble Team are heroes. It's just taking into account everything about Halo canon. The way they've been portrayed shouldn't even exist.

They probably acted better, remember Reach was the best portrayal of Noble's actions anyone could pieces together.

  • 07.12.2011 2:11 PM PDT


Posted by: DoubleP1243
It's been like 8 years since I've read that book last and i forgot a few details that made the book kick ass. After re-reading The Fall Of Reach it is very very clear that Halo Reach's story sucked monkey nuts and isnt worthy of being cannon compared to Eric Nylunds story. Ipso facto it might as well have never been made. The end.


I vehemently and almost entirely disagree. The final portion of TFoR (the part that actually deals with the Battle of Reach and its fall) left very much to be desired. The ground battle made the UNSC forces look like a bunch of completely incompetent and bumbling boobs. I really do not think Nylund did the story any justice by having Reach fall in a measly two hours, especially when all throughout the book they had been making a big deal about how strong Reach was and how it would be one of the few colonies actually READY for the Covenant when it inevitably arrived. And then what do we get treated to? An extremely absurd amount of time for the planet to fall that makes the UNSC appear as incompetents who shouldn't even be running anything and the Covenant looking like a bunch of insanely overpowered God-mode Mary-Sues of the villainous variety. I really do not think that the depiction of the battle as laid out in TFoR did the Battle of Reach justice. (and yes I read TFoR before Reach came out, it wasn't a very large gap of time, but I did read it before then, so my thoughts are not entirely colored by the game, I thought this way before I even saw any of the games overall story).

Now the game has problems as well, nothing is perfect after all, however I think it does the Battle of Reach far more justice, at least as far as the ground battles are concerned. All in all I don't think either story is really perfect by itself, together is where they form the great story and epic tale of Reach's Fall.

  • 07.12.2011 3:51 PM PDT
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Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Have fun enjoying your watered down version of Reach and it's Courageous Noble Team. Clearly space battles aren't very important.
Everything you said was perfect, and then you said this ridiculous line.

As you said, the ground effort was just as important as the space effort. Noble Team's sacrifice directly led to the discovery of the first Halo. Almost every member sacrificed his/her life for the greater good. Jorge took out a Supercarrier, Kat died after partially decrypting the data that Noble Team extracted with Cortana, and Emile, Carter, and Six all died to ensure the vital data reached the Pillar of Autumn.

Every single Spartan on Reach was a hero. The Spartan IIs that put their lives in front of generators, and the brave sailors who put their ships in front of the Covenant.
I'm so confuzzled. Wasn't the data regarding Halo found on another planet?

  • 07.12.2011 4:14 PM PDT

The way I see it, sigma octavis had the crystal containing the location of halo.

The structure on Reach simply had the last bits of data either required to fully understand it, or simply had something allowing Cortana to understand the forerunner tech as she did when she was first plugged in.

  • 07.12.2011 4:16 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The way I see it, sigma octavis had the crystal containing the location of halo.

The structure on Reach simply had the last bits of data either required to fully understand it, or simply had something allowing Cortana to understand the forerunner tech as she did when she was first plugged in.


That's my understanding of the matter as well. The SWORD Artifact either allowed to Cortana to understand that the Sigma Rock was a star map, or is what gave her the knowledge she needed to interface with Halo the way she did in CE. Or it's entirely possible that it did both.

  • 07.12.2011 5:10 PM PDT

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