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This topic has moved here: Subject: So, does Halo have a Canon?
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Subject: So, does Halo have a Canon?

Posted by: paulmarv
I believe that posts like the one you quoted ought to be typed up in the most understandable and concise mode of the English language possible, and I just don't understand how you think my post used anything other than ordinary English. Please help me understand your accusation. Let's break down my post to see where you could possibly find legal jargon.

The only words perhaps not known by an average 1st grade student are "absolute", "objective", and "apparent". These words are simple, commonly used in everyday conversational dialogue, and have no more concise or more understandable synonyms that I can think of.


It's not the words you're using that make your posts hard to understand and sound like legal text, it's how you're using them and how you have strung them together to create your post. I have no trouble at all understanding the words you used at all, it's just the overall way you write your posts that gets a bit confusing.

You say that canon is whatever the writers say. I do not understand how you can entrust your beliefs to the whims of this mysterious group called "the writers". Are they God? I have written this post - am I not a writer? Aren't you a writer? Then are you saying that canon is whatever you want it to be?

You must at some point draw a line, for the sake of naming and words, that defines the identity of a group of things. Halo is certainly the story found in Bungie's Halo Trilogy - you can call Bungie the "writers" of that story if you really want. I suppose it makes no difference. But since you can call whatever you want by whatever name you want, your tolerance of anybody deemed "official" by 343 to inject their personal imagination into what you consider canon eliminates the meaning of the word "Halo" and turns it into a word that refers to a large, incoherent body. I am trying to say that there is a certain body that is the real Halo canon. I might not always be able to say surely what it is; I know for instances that the first three Halo games are part of the true canon, but it isn't always that clear. Point is, we can't just go running out choosing and picking what we feel and think is canon; it is already determined by the original meaning of the word "Halo". Sure, you could call something else "Halo", but it doesn't make the two things the same. See what I'm saying?


Yes, for all intents and purposes, the writers of any story series are "god" for their own universe, whatever the writer/creator of any given series says goes as long as they're still the owner of the IP. *sigh* You should know what I mean by "writers". But since you obviously can't divine my meaning I will spell it out for you. I am talking about anyone officially contracted by the owners of the Halo series, or those they have placed in charge of the series (this is the case with Microsoft, they own the Halo series, but 343i has been creative control of it they write the script for the games and hire various novelists to write a story set in the Halos universe), to write the script for a game, or book, comic, or short film.

I think I understand what you're saying now, but I can say that I don't agree with it at all, the canon is not some abstract thing that exists outside of anyone's control. The canon is whatever the people who have been given the power to craft the story by the owners of the IP decide it is. What you are saying is fundamentally the same as picking and choosing what you think is canon. Unless of course you don't call anything non-canon, then there's not really anything wrong with your method at all.

  • 07.23.2011 4:44 PM PDT

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Posted by: OrderedComa
It's not the words you're using that make your posts hard to understand and sound like legal text, it's how you're using them and how you have strung them together to create your post. I have no trouble at all understanding the words you used at all, it's just the overall way you write your posts that gets a bit confusing.

Then I can only apologize that you find my posts confusing; criticism this vague doesn't really help me identify any problem. I hope I can improve my writing.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Yes, for all intents and purposes, the writers of any story series are "god" for their own universe, whatever the writer/creator of any given series says goes as long as they're still the owner of the IP. *sigh* You should know what I mean by "writers". But since you obviously can't divine my meaning I will spell it out for you. I am talking about anyone officially contracted by the owners of the Halo series, or those they have placed in charge of the series (this is the case with Microsoft, they own the Halo series, but 343i has been creative control of it they write the script for the games and hire various novelists to write a story set in the Halos universe), to write the script for a game, or book, comic, or short film.

Thank you for overtly stating what I already expected: you follow the official and legal authority codified by the standards of IP law and the history of the IP's ownership. This is certainly a comfortable and clear way to decide in black-and-white terms what is canon, and a quite attractive mentality I must admit. But you therefore believe that if 343 officially decides to hire me to compose and publish a Halo-themed -blam!- fantasy picture book, depicting absurd and clearly false things about, say, Master Chief - it is considered canon and representational of the same chain of events that the Battle of Installation 05 occurs in, for instance. That's absurd, and at that point, the greater story is the one which selects the latter event and excludes the first. (I should note that picking the "better" version as canon is the same thing as personal picking and choosing and is not a proper method, but I'm sure that a true knowledge of the canon would lead you to the "better" version, especially with recent Halo-publications. But I digress.)

Posted by: OrderedComa
I think I understand what you're saying now, but I can say that I don't agree with it at all, the canon is not some abstract thing that exists outside of anyone's control. The canon is whatever the people who have been given the power to craft the story by the owners of the IP decide it is. What you are saying is fundamentally the same as picking and choosing what you think is canon. Unless of course you don't call anything non-canon, then there's not really anything wrong with your method at all.

Unless you will accept my above hypothetical example, then you must adhere to the concept of an ideal and abstract canon. It is different from picking and choosing in that I recognize that the Halo canon is an unchangeable and universal thing - it is only up to my wisdom and knowledge to find what it is. I may be right or wrong about it, and that debate is something we should have case by case on this forum. (And often do.) We can agree that personal feelings-based picking and choosing is not a sufficient definition of canon for one reason that it is not the same for everybody, but I disagree with your position because it extends the same undue power to working class human Americans employed by 343.

  • 07.23.2011 9:54 PM PDT
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I'd say it's some where between Doctor Whos flexible time travel Canon and Star Treks strict canon.


So a bit like Star Wars. There is room for side stories that don't break canon but are debatable.

  • 07.23.2011 10:09 PM PDT

Posted by: paulmarv
Then I can only apologize that you find my posts confusing; criticism this vague doesn't really help me identify any problem. I hope I can improve my writing.


:/ I wish I could be more specific than I have been, but I'm not very good at giving out constructive criticism on people's writing. I do know that you have a tendency to word your posts like an argument on a legal document or in a science report, and that's what gets confusing...

Thank you for overtly stating what I already expected: you follow the official and legal authority codified by the standards of IP law and the history of the IP's ownership. This is certainly a comfortable and clear way to decide in black-and-white terms what is canon, and a quite attractive mentality I must admit. But you therefore believe that if 343 officially decides to hire me to compose and publish a Halo-themed -blam!- fantasy picture book, depicting absurd and clearly false things about, say, Master Chief - it is considered canon and representational of the same chain of events that the Battle of Installation 05 occurs in, for instance. That's absurd, and at that point, the greater story is the one which selects the latter event and excludes the first. (I should note that picking the "better" version as canon is the same thing as personal picking and choosing and is not a proper method, but I'm sure that a true knowledge of the canon would lead you to the "better" version, especially with recent Halo-publications. But I digress.)

Unless you will accept my above hypothetical example, then you must adhere to the concept of an ideal and abstract canon. It is different from picking and choosing in that I recognize that the Halo canon is an unchangeable and universal thing - it is only up to my wisdom and knowledge to find what it is. I may be right or wrong about it, and that debate is something we should have case by case on this forum. (And often do.) We can agree that personal feelings-based picking and choosing is not a sufficient definition of canon for one reason that it is not the same for everybody, but I disagree with your position because it extends the same undue power to working class human Americans employed by 343.


Yes, I do believe that. I may not like what the writers 343i hires does with a story, but for better or worse, like it or not, it is a part of the canon unless they state it to be so otherwise (such as the Halo Legends episode Odd One Out). There is no abstract "theme" or "pattern" that decides what is or is not canon. And in Halo's universe it's not like 343i just hands out random projects and says "go do whatever the hell you want and it's canon now", the writer's have to get the ok of Frankie and whoever else may be story and content supervisors over at 343i as they write the story. And it's not all from the author's imagination either, they're given certain events that have to happen in their story as well.

I don't get why you seem to think that authority over canon does not rest with those writing and crafting that story, it's preposterous to think otherwise. One might as well not have a story at all if what you are saying were the case. Why bother having stories at all if the creator of the story has no say in what is true for his universe?

  • 07.30.2011 9:59 PM PDT

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