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  • Subject: Who is Just?
Subject: Who is Just?

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

And who is not? For each one below explain whether, overall, you think that they were morally justified or morally corrupt in pursuit of their goals, and whether these goals themselves were just or not. I will not put my own conclusions until later because I want to avoid another wall of an OP, and from influencing peoples posts.

~ UNSC

~ Insurrection

~ Covenant

~ Heretics

~ Flood

~ Forerunner in Human War

~ Forerunner in activating the Array


[Edited on 07.17.2011 1:51 PM PDT]

  • 07.17.2011 12:32 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

UNSC- They are somewhere in the grey. They do want what is bets for humanity, but they did neglect the outer colonies. Not only that, but they did commit big human rights/moral violations. But such violations protected the majority of humanity from threats both foreign and domestic.

Insurrectionist- They had noble goals at first, but the countless bombings on civilian centers and irradiating an entire planet are unforgivable.

Covenant- They are misguided like all religions thrust into militancy. Their leaders were not to be judged and that would be their fatal flaw. Had the members of the Covenant had an equal say, I believe their actions would be much better, maybe even including humanity in the Covenant as prophets of sorts once their ability to use Forerunner systems was discovered.

Heretics- Their actions aren't completely understood. Sure, they stood against the Covenant, but if they were to live on what would they do? Join the humans? We'll never know.

Flood- They are simply a primal parasite bent on feeding and assimilation no matter how goo their leader is with poetry.

Forerunners- I'll reserve my full judgement after the last books in the trilogy are released.

  • 07.17.2011 12:43 PM PDT

I started up the heated debate on whether the SPARTAN-II in the cryo tube near the end of Reach is really Linda.
I created the Moa XING avatar pic.
Also I earned the All Star nameplate with this submission to Week 14 All Stars http://www.bungie.net/images/News/Inline11/bwu_0415/art/likea boss.jpg

Space Australia is the best

  • 07.17.2011 12:59 PM PDT

He's pretty gooey with the poetry.

  • 07.17.2011 1:01 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Joshua, I know actually elaborating on things is too difficult for you, so I suggest you go. Same for you Irae.

  • 07.17.2011 1:17 PM PDT

UNSC

While their treatment of the outer colonies wasn't as good as it ought to be they still had humanities best interest at heart. Even if that meant their pursuit of that was in the gray. They sacrificed enough men and woman in the H-C war to make their cause just.

Insurrection

Intentions were good however they lost all support when they decided to take extreme measures. Face it. Nuking a city isn't that saintly.

Covenant

Morally injust. The species lower than prophets followed them blindly which led to billions of innocent humans being killed. Also there is the fact humanity did not disgrace any forerunner artifacts like the prophets said and if they did come into contact they simply studied them or put them in museums. They are probably the biggest douches in the galaxy.

Heretics

Morally better I believe. It isn't said weather or not they still hated humanity though. Not much info on them.

Flood

Their goal was actually pretty good. Make the galaxy into a utopia. A true utopia at that. There would be no war, no poverty and all organisms would look out for each other. However their pursuit of that was pretty evil. Face it. No race wanted to get assimilated. The flood forcefully assimilated them against their will, not to mention the pain and suffering it caused and they became mindless drones. Pretty evil IMO.

Forerunner in Human War

The reason to get into it was justified. Humanity was invading other systems and taking over planets and the forerunners were pretty pissed about that. However they went over board with the devolution of humanity and the banishing of the San Shyum. It never mentioned if they tried to find out why humanity invaded the other planets so this may imply they already had a rocky relationship with humanity before. This just crossed the line.

Forerunner in Activating the Array.

Justified. While the act of wiping all life from the galaxy is horrible, letting it be infected by the flood would be worse. They didn't have a choice in the matter really.

Forerunner

Just throwing this in since it wasn't on it.

Personally, I believe they were on the "good" side of the coin. It is certain they did help thousands if not millions of species to grow peacefully. It is said the use of warrior servants was rare and they did showed restraint if some race jabbed at them. Humanity just jabbed them enough to get them pissed. What Cryptum showed IMO is that they were not perfect. They had corruption and misuse of power and hypocrisy, just like any other species. They were just the ones with the biggest shield and sword. Nonetheless, they did sacrifice much in the flood war. It should also be mentioned that the council did remove Faber from the position of Master Builder and those in positions of power during his time resigned and other forerunners took their place. I expect to see the forerunners we imagined more in the second and third books in the Forerunner saga. They were, overall on the good side of the coin IMO.

[Edited on 07.17.2011 1:20 PM PDT]

  • 07.17.2011 1:19 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.

Honestly I would say that all of them have justified their reasons for what they do based on their perspectives, and it would be easy to say who isn't by taking up a side and applying that side's mentality to explain why others are in the wrong. So it's rather difficult to label each as just or unjust. From what I see though here's each faction's justifications from their perspective.

UNSC - They fight against a genocidal group of various aliens who are winning the war and pushing humanity to the brink of extinction. Thus any and every step taken is a necessary one regardless of the cost because at this point it will take literally anything and everything for humanity to survive extinction. To another extent the same could be said of the actions made to ensure that humanity does not find itself in a galactic civil war prior to the war with the Covenant.

Insurrection - Whilst there's still quite a bit left out as to the full extent of the Insurrection and its movement they fight from the stance that what they do will be the only way to free themselves from their perceived oppression from the UNSC.

Covenant - Well despite realizing that they were ultimately misled, the various races of the Covenant as a whole in their prime felt their actions in the war with humanity were justified based on their religious beliefs.

Heretics - In their mind set they know they are lied to, and now they (referring to the group from Halo 2 mainly) fight to turn their people away from the lies as well as live on in a state where they are no longer manipulated by the Covenant.

The Flood - They're a parasite whose goal in life is simple like with most parasites. Infect, Survive, Spread, Repopulate, Repeat. They may be intelligent enough to speak with high forms of sentient beings, but it does not fundamentally change their biological needs as a parasite. It's quite literally within their nature to do what they do.

Forerunners - From their perspective, they saw the Humans encroaching onto their territory for what seems to be unprovoked aggression. The humans did not back down, nor provide an explanation for their actions. Instead the humans violently resisted. How else would one react to a force attempting to steal established territory but to declare an act of war against these aggressors and ensure they are no longer in a position to trouble them any longer?

As a side note, I like using the comparison that the Forerunner-Human war's ending can be likened as an extreme allegory to WWI with the allies punishing Germany severely under the justification that it was so that country would never be a grave threat to the rest of the world ever again. Course they were wrong in the long run, but the justifications at the time can be lined up with trying to understand why the Forerunners would devolve humanity after the war and not say the prophets.

Forerunners activating Halo - While they do it reluctantly, the ultimate justification in their eyes was how it was the only option at that point to stop the Flood and preserve what was left of the galaxy. Either activate Halo, or lose everything.

So there's the justification, but take any one side and you can come up for how every one is unjust too in some way. Too many for me to begin listing.

  • 07.17.2011 1:41 PM PDT

I started up the heated debate on whether the SPARTAN-II in the cryo tube near the end of Reach is really Linda.
I created the Moa XING avatar pic.
Also I earned the All Star nameplate with this submission to Week 14 All Stars http://www.bungie.net/images/News/Inline11/bwu_0415/art/likea boss.jpg

How about this, there is no truly "just" group in the Haloverse.
Every group has some good and bad aspects about them.
If I had to choose a side, I'd choose the Forerunners (live on the Ark)

  • 07.17.2011 1:45 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ImmortalJoshua
How about this, there is no truly "just" group in the Haloverse.
Every group has some good and bad aspects about them.
If I had to choose a side, I'd choose the Forerunners (live on the Ark)

Elaborate WHY.

  • 07.17.2011 1:50 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ImmortalJoshua
How about this, there is no truly "just" group in the Haloverse.
Every group has some good and bad aspects about them.
If I had to choose a side, I'd choose the Forerunners (live on the Ark)

Elaborate WHY.


Because.

  • 07.17.2011 3:36 PM PDT

troll comin in the room your all -blam!- lawl fail we dont take you serious go stick a hook -blam!-

  • 07.17.2011 3:40 PM PDT


Posted by: bquick33
troll comin in the room your all -blam!- lawl fail we dont take you serious go stick a hook -blam!-

My thoughts exactly.

  • 07.17.2011 3:41 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

If you're going to insult people, make sure we actually understand what you're saying.

  • 07.17.2011 3:41 PM PDT

Stupid ass washing machine...

Damn bastard hicks.

Posted by: bquick33
troll comin in the room your all -blam!- lawl fail we dont take you serious go stick a hook -blam!-

  • 07.17.2011 4:03 PM PDT


Posted by: Sniffy66
UNSC

While their treatment of the outer colonies wasn't as good as it ought to be they still had humanities best interest at heart. Even if that meant their pursuit of that was in the gray. They sacrificed enough men and woman in the H-C war to make their cause just.

Insurrection

Intentions were good however they lost all support when they decided to take extreme measures. Face it. Nuking a city isn't that saintly.

Covenant

Morally injust. The species lower than prophets followed them blindly which led to billions of innocent humans being killed. Also there is the fact humanity did not disgrace any forerunner artifacts like the prophets said and if they did come into contact they simply studied them or put them in museums. They are probably the biggest douches in the galaxy.

Heretics

Morally better I believe. It isn't said weather or not they still hated humanity though. Not much info on them.

Flood

Their goal was actually pretty good. Make the galaxy into a utopia. A true utopia at that. There would be no war, no poverty and all organisms would look out for each other. However their pursuit of that was pretty evil. Face it. No race wanted to get assimilated. The flood forcefully assimilated them against their will, not to mention the pain and suffering it caused and they became mindless drones. Pretty evil IMO.

Forerunner in Human War

The reason to get into it was justified. Humanity was invading other systems and taking over planets and the forerunners were pretty pissed about that. However they went over board with the devolution of humanity and the banishing of the San Shyum. It never mentioned if they tried to find out why humanity invaded the other planets so this may imply they already had a rocky relationship with humanity before. This just crossed the line.

Forerunner in Activating the Array.

Justified. While the act of wiping all life from the galaxy is horrible, letting it be infected by the flood would be worse. They didn't have a choice in the matter really.

Forerunner

Just throwing this in since it wasn't on it.

Personally, I believe they were on the "good" side of the coin. It is certain they did help thousands if not millions of species to grow peacefully. It is said the use of warrior servants was rare and they did showed restraint if some race jabbed at them. Humanity just jabbed them enough to get them pissed. What Cryptum showed IMO is that they were not perfect. They had corruption and misuse of power and hypocrisy, just like any other species. They were just the ones with the biggest shield and sword. Nonetheless, they did sacrifice much in the flood war. It should also be mentioned that the council did remove Faber from the position of Master Builder and those in positions of power during his time resigned and other forerunners took their place. I expect to see the forerunners we imagined more in the second and third books in the Forerunner saga. They were, overall on the good side of the coin IMO.


What did humanity do to the Outer Colonies?

  • 07.17.2011 4:04 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

UNSC - I don't believe that there is sufficient justification for their goals before the H-C war. During it though, yes. Obviously the survival of the Human race was paramount, but much of the shady work done by the UNSC occurred before the Covenant were known about. (Supposedly) During the H-C war however, given what was at stake, I think that they are excused.

Before the H-C war, there really was not much for justifying their totalitarian control in trying to keep Humanity unified. They essentially exploited the outer colonies badly and neglected them almost completely. Had they allowed the colonies to self-Govern, then there is no reason to suggest that civil war would have been a problem. Furthermore, the need for the Spartan program would not have presented itself, which is an unethical program itself. It was not the fault of the 75 children that civil war would happen, it was the UNSC's. So they did not deserve to be coerced into the program. Remember that this is before the Covenant were known about, so there is no foresight to this. I think that the Spartans could actually be viewed as scapegoats for the UNSC in a way.

During the H-C war, there is obviously a good reason to try to keep Humanity united. If there was diaspora then the Covenant would sweep through a divided Humanity even quicker. There is no reason to assume that sovereign colonies would band together, as the Insurrection continued its fight against the UNSC even during the H-C war. Divided factions with divided resources would be crushed by the Covenant a whole lot easier.

Insurrection - People from the outer colonies who want freedom from exploitation and tyranny. I see no problems with this aim before the Covenant showed up. However their methods were atrocious.

Also their lack of foresight in continuing to fight against the UNSC during the Covenant war was plain foolish and irresponsible. It was draining resources from the UNSC which could have been used on defending colonies from the Covenant. I don't think that they were right during the war, regardless of whether they were before.

Covenant - Obviously they were blinded by faith, but that is just how and why they did what they did. It does not make it any less evil. Obviously Humanity, a race that did nothing to the Covenant and had no intention of causing it harm, did not deserve what it received. The Covenant essentially had no right to poke their nose into Human worlds and do what it did. It is not right for others to be subjected to your laws and beliefs forcefully, regardless of what one's religion says.

The fact that Humanity was innocent of all accused wrongdoings and that this was a lie concocted by the Heirarchs to cover-up a fatal flaw in the Covenant's false religion makes the Covenant utterly in the wrong I think.

Heretics - In pursuit of the greater truth, to whatever degree, is obviously in the right. Though I admit we don't know the full extent of their actions toward the goal of spreading this truth.

Flood - I don't believe this is in the right either. It seeks to forcefully submit people to its ideal, against their wills most of the time, which is obviously wrong regardless of how good the ideal is. The Flood's need to infect people does not free it of guilt either. It is not anyone else's problem that the Flood requires biomass. I don't believe that anyone should be required to sacrifice themselves for something that they are not responsible for; in this case the Flood's need to infect.

For example: If a man is born with a Heart defect, who will die unless he gets a transplant, is it acceptable for him to kill another person for their heart? Should that person be coerced into giving theirs up, their life essentially with it? I think not. The same principle, I think, applies to the Flood.

Forerunner - Humanity were wrong in destroying those 50 or so defenceless worlds. The Forerunner had every right to declare war on Humanity. However I think that this is as far as it should have been taken, in terms of removing Humanity's military capability.

I don't believe that there is any reason for genocide whatsoever. The details of the war are sketchy, but I find it hard to believe that every last single Human wanted those colonies destroyed, and wanted to continuously combat the Forerunner without backing down. A lot of innocent people would have been killed for nothing, and for beliefs that they did not hold. More could be added surrounding the Forerunners intention but I don't think it is needed. The Forerunner went way too far I think.

Forerunner in activating the Array - I'm really not sure about this one. One could say that the issue would never have presented itself if the Forerunner had not been so lax, and then that two wrongs don't make a right. However, all was pretty much lost at this point anyway. They also had to defend themselves from the Flood and everything that it was doing to them, and this was the only way to do it apparently.

  • 07.17.2011 4:17 PM PDT

.

"Happiness is like glass, you might not always notice it but if you change your view and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light."

Unsc
They made sacrifices but that does not give me the idea of them being noble because it was sacrifice or extinction. They gave up on the outer colonies and left millions to die but they were foolish enough to try colonizing that far from earth. They also kidnapped the 75 children for the spartan program and the war was unsc fault for not allowing some more freedom. Overall they tried their best and they are in the grey for me.

Insurrection
In the beginning they were fighting for freedom which is understandable. Then they became worse then the unsc when they began to kill civilians and terrorize people. Then in the covenant war they refused to help the unsc and kept terrorizing and attacking it although less then before. In the end they were not thinking of the big picture and caused the deaths of many.

Covenant
The best way to describe them is Puppets controlled by a false religion. The leaders are completely evil and could have thought of a better solution and merged humanity into the covenant. In the end though it was them who destroyed the covenant.

Heretics
They were told the truth by an oracle and believed in it and against all of the covenant they took a stand. They were truly heroic and noble.

Forerunner Human War

I haven't had enough time to buy cryptum yet.

Forerunner activating the Array
Based on my limited knowledge, I have come to a somewhat poor opinion of this subject.
It was a hard decision but a noble one and foolish one. It was noble to stop the flood and must have been difficult to kill all life besides a few species. The foolish part is because they stored the flood on the arrays.

Flood

They originally began as a harmless pet but through mutations they had a hunger to devour all life. It is their instincts to devour life and I cannot really call them evil when they don't have much of a intelligence to communicate and its their nature as a parasite to infect until no one is left to infect.

[Edited on 07.17.2011 4:58 PM PDT]

  • 07.17.2011 4:53 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

UNSC - Overall they do the right things in order to preserve the human race.
Insurrection - They certainly didn't help after the Covenant war started.
Covenant - Their entire drive is based on a lie. So pretty weak.
Heretics - Pretty cool guys.
Flood - Just looking to exist in a universe where everyone wants to kill them. They are very tragic.
Forerunner in both cases may have kind of overreacted.

  • 07.17.2011 5:01 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!


Posted by: dahuterschuter
UNSC - Overall they do the right things in order to preserve the human race.
Insurrection - They certainly didn't help after the Covenant war started.
Covenant - Their entire drive is based on a lie. So pretty weak.
Heretics - Pretty cool guys.
Flood - Just looking to exist in a universe where everyone wants to kill them. They are very tragic.
Forerunner in both cases may have kind of overreacted.

Actually some innies did.

  • 07.17.2011 5:22 PM PDT

I started up the heated debate on whether the SPARTAN-II in the cryo tube near the end of Reach is really Linda.
I created the Moa XING avatar pic.
Also I earned the All Star nameplate with this submission to Week 14 All Stars http://www.bungie.net/images/News/Inline11/bwu_0415/art/likea boss.jpg

Ok here are my opinions on each Faction:

UNSC:
With the war against the Covenant, I would possibly be with these guys. Though I hate ONI (it's the Patriot Act, but as an organization), I feel the UNSC would be an appropriate choice. I'm guessing they're similar to America right now.

Innies:
During the Innie uprising, I would have joined them. Though I highly disagree with their ruthless killing of civilians. If the Innies were separated into several factions, I'd have to make a decision on which one.

Covenant:
NO, they'd kill me.

Heretics:
I'd join the Sepratists, but I'm not sure about the Heretics.

Flood:
NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoo

Forerunner:
I'd join them. Though I feel that they would possibly view me as nothing more than a specimen or just another individual to be indexed. I wouldn't mine living on the Ark.

  • 07.17.2011 6:55 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

In their own perverse way, I think all the actions of the groups started out as morally justifiable (excluding the Flood, but I will elaborate), but then they all crossed a line at some point.

The UNSC had the best interests of humanity at heart, but they neglected the outer colonies. Having Earth as the governing body, but not having any significant political presence in the outer colonies created the Insurrection. Their actions during the war where completely justifiable. We needed to survive, and so we fought back.

The Insurrection had a good idea but when they started targeting civilians, they went from revolutionarys to terrorists. You don't attack the people you are trying to free from the grasp of the government.

The Covenant was following their religion. They did not know that Halo would kill them all, they just believed it was how they would meet their gods. It is no different than what many religious people are trying today. I also remember how some members wanted humanity to join the Covenant, but when the three prophets came to power, their corruption drove the Covenant into a genocidal fury.

I have not seen enough of the Heretics to get a good idea of what they would do.

The flood started out as an animal following it's instincts. If a lion try's to attack you and you kill it, can you blame the lion? It needed food and you were food, you can't blame an animal for following it's instincts. Once the Gravemind appeared, the Flood had a purpose. The Gravemind wanted to unify the galaxy, albeit by assimilating all life.

The Forerunners overeacted to humanity. Instead of taking back their worlds through diplomacy, they decided to go all out and almost killed us all off if not for the Librarian. Not very nice.

As for the Halo Array, I think the Forerunners where slightly justified. They had an enemy that was seemingly out to devour all life. They needed to stop them. They tried their hardest, but in the end they failed. They did however save a great deal of life at the Ark, which makes up for some of their previous shortcomings.

In conclusion, I think all the factions had, at least partially, good ideas but horrid execution of them.

  • 07.17.2011 7:01 PM PDT