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This topic has moved here: Subject: Second Forerunner book revealed :DDD
  • Subject: Second Forerunner book revealed :DDD
Subject: Second Forerunner book revealed :DDD

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Righteous Fury19
Q. Are the forerunners still around and if they are, where the hell have they all been? I know that this is off-topic but why is John so special, what does or rather what did Bias see in John that he didn't see in others? in the last terminal it says something like this "There is more....But you are not worthy. .....Not Yet."
a rather cryptic message, is it foreshadowing do you think?


The Forerunners are indeed still around. They left the Orion Arm of the Milky Way (which is far beyond UNSC territory).

That's the message you get when you're on low difficulties. To become "worthy" you have to play on Legendary, then Bias states he seeks atonement and is going to show his masters using John as his example.

Perhaps John is part of some intricate plot for the Forerunners to return (not as villains) laid down by geas?

  • 07.21.2011 9:45 AM PDT

Sounds and looks great so far, but I better get back to reading Cryptum again.

  • 07.21.2011 10:04 AM PDT

Joshua Piper

So then technically the forerunners are still around in the Galaxy. The Orion Spiral Arm is but one of five? arms that make up the milky way and it is apparently one of the smaller ones. it's possibly then that the Forerunners are simply in another arm or perhaps live near or inside the core of the galaxy.

Interesting. Could Bias have deliberately sent that half of the Dawn to the Forerunners? the Halo 4 trailer seems to indicate that John has arrived at a shield world and it appears to be active. Is Bias even still alive? i thought he was trapped in the Ark data files and thus must have been destroyed in the blast right?

Is there away for bias to infect Cortana? copy/clone a bit of himself into her matrix or all of his knowledge or some form of code or cache of knowledge perhaps? just thinking about how Cortana behaved in Origins and then that Iris eye thing. If so perhaps John is tasked with the job of returning the Forerunners home or perhaps he is there to learn how to destroy the Prisoner aka the Last Precursor in Halo 4? maybe. How could bias atone though?

What act big or small could make up for the genocide of his creators and their allies at the last critical moment? how could John factor in to this 'plot' to atone for his sins?

[Edited on 07.21.2011 11:41 AM PDT]

  • 07.21.2011 11:39 AM PDT


Posted by: Righteous Fury19
So then technically the forerunners are still around in the Galaxy. The Orion Spiral Arm is but one of five? arms that make up the milky way and it is apparently one of the smaller ones. it's possibly then that the Forerunners are simply in another arm or perhaps live near or inside the core of the galaxy.

Interesting. Could Bias have deliberately sent that half of the Dawn to the Forerunners? the Halo 4 trailer seems to indicate that John has arrived at a shield world and it appears to be active. Is Bias even still alive? i thought he was trapped in the Ark data files and thus must have been destroyed in the blast right?

Is there away for bias to infect Cortana? copy/clone a bit of himself into her matrix or all of his knowledge or some form of code or cache of knowledge perhaps? just thinking about how Cortana behaved in Origins and then that Iris eye thing. If so perhaps John is tasked with the job of returning the Forerunners home or perhaps he is there to learn how to destroy the Prisoner aka the Last Precursor in Halo 4? maybe. How could bias atone though?

What act big or small could make up for the genocide of his creators and their allies at the last critical moment? how could John factor in to this 'plot' to atone for his sins?
From the last terminal on legendary:

And so here at the end of my life, I do once again betray a former master. The path ahead is fraught with peril. But I will do all I can to keep it stable - keep you safe. I'm not so foolish to think this will absolve me of my sins. One life hardly balances billions.

But I would have my masters know that I have changed.

And you shall be my example.

He knows he will never be forgiven. He just wants his masters to know he has changed. He will be using John in the next trilogy in order to do that.

  • 07.21.2011 11:52 AM PDT

Joshua Piper

How can Bias use John from outside the Galaxy? what can John do that the Forerunners will know this? how exactly can he be used as an instrument for atonement? Perhaps he will be or more likely he has stored a message for his masters in Cortana or the Chief's suit, I don't think Bias will appear physically in Halo 4 unless major plot twist he is Cortana and Cortana died on High Charity but Bias assumed her form.

Scary thought isn't it? but intriguing as well, he is after all a Contender Class A.I the most advanced and powerful A.I ever. if he could do that I wouldn't be surprised, though I would be naturally saddened about Cortana's death.

  • 07.21.2011 12:11 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Righteous Fury19
he is after all a Contender Class A.I the most advanced and powerful A.I ever.


A Metarch is the most powerful ancilla. There were only 5 in existence at the time of the Forerunner-Flood war.

  • 07.21.2011 12:16 PM PDT

Joshua Piper

But Mendicant Bias is said to have been the Forerunners most powerful A.I, they created him to seek out the Compound Intelligence that led the Flood i.e. the Gravemind and destroy it. but as we know he was 'persuaded' to join the Flood.

Thus the Forerunners created his 'brother' Offensive Bias to defeat him. so are you saying that Bias was an ancilla? are they the same thing? Contender, Ancilla? just different names?

  • 07.21.2011 12:50 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

The spacecraft look sort of primitive for Forerunner design.

  • 07.21.2011 1:08 PM PDT

Joshua Piper

They look a lot like Phantoms, perhaps they are simply drop ships?

  • 07.21.2011 1:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: dahuterschuter
The spacecraft look sort of primitive for Forerunner design.


they look more like fighters and dropships

  • 07.21.2011 2:08 PM PDT

Posted by: Righteous Fury19
But Mendicant Bias is said to have been the Forerunners most powerful A.I, they created him to seek out the Compound Intelligence that led the Flood i.e. the Gravemind and destroy it. but as we know he was 'persuaded' to join the Flood.

Thus the Forerunners created his 'brother' Offensive Bias to defeat him. so are you saying that Bias was an ancilla? are they the same thing? Contender, Ancilla? just different names?


I think you're right here. Mendicant had a Monitor body in Cryptum. It could be that he's confined to that form or is a construct that can resleeve from one form to another. I'd think that he'd have the ability to enter networks, but with the protocols developed to combat flood he could have been given a "body" unlike ancilla who seem more like the UNSC's dumb AIs.

[Edited on 07.21.2011 2:18 PM PDT]

  • 07.21.2011 2:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Righteous Fury19
But Mendicant Bias is said to have been the Forerunners most powerful A.I, they created him to seek out the Compound Intelligence that led the Flood i.e. the Gravemind and destroy it. but as we know he was 'persuaded' to join the Flood.

Thus the Forerunners created his 'brother' Offensive Bias to defeat him. so are you saying that Bias was an ancilla? are they the same thing? Contender, Ancilla? just different names?



contender class AI= contender class Ancilla; and i am positive that was stated in the book.


  • 07.21.2011 2:18 PM PDT

the ships slightly resemble the strange ship off to the left of the Halo: Reach epilogue. Wingless, similar in shape, have the same blue lighting, a few "antennae" like things.

HMMMM.

[Edited on 07.21.2011 5:41 PM PDT]

  • 07.21.2011 5:34 PM PDT


Posted by: Righteous Fury19
How can Bias use John from outside the Galaxy? what can John do that the Forerunners will know this? how exactly can he be used as an instrument for atonement? Perhaps he will be or more likely he has stored a message for his masters in Cortana or the Chief's suit, I don't think Bias will appear physically in Halo 4 unless major plot twist he is Cortana and Cortana died on High Charity but Bias assumed her form.

Scary thought isn't it? but intriguing as well, he is after all a Contender Class A.I the most advanced and powerful A.I ever. if he could do that I wouldn't be surprised, though I would be naturally saddened about Cortana's death.


I think the forerunners were always secretly guiding humanity from the great beyond or wherever the heck. That explains what the AI in the data pads are (maybe they were created by chakas and riser, hence them referring to humans as their creators), it also explains Johns "luck", and why he was "the one" from such an early age.


Anyways, everything is being set up to have halo 4-6 to be extremely closely related to the forerunner trilogy.

My theory is that by the end of the trilogy, John becomes the new didact, and after dealing with the great evil (the last precursor? probably something mentioned in primordium) he brings hope back to humanity by bringing the forerunner tech they've inhereted (and the mantle) back to earth, to repair the war torn galaxy (further explained through karen travis' trilogy).

[Edited on 07.21.2011 5:46 PM PDT]

  • 07.21.2011 5:40 PM PDT

Joshua Piper

that is not entirely impossible, the forerunners may well have been 'conditioning' humanity for a long time. I can't really see how Chakas and Riser could have anything to do with the Committee of Minds, seeing as it was set up in 2310 I think.

Perhaps, or a similar role. Mankind will have to at some point step up to their role as reclaimers. Will the Prisoner even be alive after 100,000 years? if Didact doesn't kill him in Primoridium then Riser and Chakas will surely have a go.

[Edited on 07.22.2011 10:43 AM PDT]

  • 07.22.2011 10:40 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Righteous Fury19
that is not entirely impossible, the forerunners may well have been 'conditioning' humanity for a long time. I can't really see how Chakas and Riser could have anything to do with the Committee of Minds, seeing as it was set up in 2310 I think.

Perhaps, or a similar role. Mankind will have to at some point step up to their role as reclaimers. Will the Prisoner even be alive after 100,000 years? if Didact doesn't kill him in Primoridium then Riser and Chakas will surely have a go.


That was the date the minds went active that isn't there built date, and seeing how they have knowledge of the past they can't be current AIs.

prisoner=gravemind

  • 07.22.2011 10:46 AM PDT

Joshua Piper

True but the AIs can't have been around for much longer than the 22nd century, I mean they were no A.Is in 2163 so they must have been built some time after that. Granted A.Is have been around as long as there has been Advanced Civilisations, still unless Chakas and/or Riser are immortal I don't see how they could have a hand in the Creation of the Committee unless somehow they become A.Is that seems unlikely however.

That's a possibility I admit but the first Gravemind was killed, the Second is a different one unless Graveminds pass on genetic material throughout the the 'community' then the 'second' would have the memories of the first.

Still wouldn't Didact have known that the Garvemind was the Prisoner when he sent Bias after him? he met him face to face after all and actually took his threat seriously. Was the Prisoner infected or merely speaking through the Flood? the Flood communicate telepathically, perhaps the Prisoner had a similar ability?




[Edited on 07.22.2011 11:03 AM PDT]

  • 07.22.2011 11:02 AM PDT


Posted by: Righteous Fury19
Granted A.Is have been around as long as there has been Advanced Civilisations, still unless Chakas and/or Riser are immortal I don't see how they could have a hand in the Creation of the Committee unless somehow they become A.Is that seems unlikely however.


They where given Forerunner armor, that is a possibility.

  • 07.22.2011 11:09 AM PDT
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Imagine a triangle. It's perfect, but a little plain. You take a chisel, and carve a small decorative symbol into it to make it a little more interesting. People like it, but it could use a little more.

So you then take a sledgehammer..

:D x1 000 000

  • 07.22.2011 11:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Righteous Fury19
True but the AIs can't have been around for much longer than the 22nd century, I mean they were no A.Is in 2163 so they must have been built some time after that. Granted A.Is have been around as long as there has been Advanced Civilisations, still unless Chakas and/or Riser are immortal I don't see how they could have a hand in the Creation of the Committee unless somehow they become A.Is that seems unlikely however.

That's a possibility I admit but the first Gravemind was killed, the Second is a different one unless Graveminds pass on genetic material throughout the the 'community' then the 'second' would have the memories of the first.

Still wouldn't Didact have known that the Garvemind was the Prisoner when he sent Bias after him? he met him face to face after all and actually took his threat seriously. Was the Prisoner infected or merely speaking through the Flood? the Flood communicate telepathically, perhaps the Prisoner had a similar ability?




These are ancient humanities AI's not the current.

When was it ever stated the first gravemind was killed? i really want to know where people are getting that from. and nothing was ever stated about genetic memory, ever.


Bias was sent out to study the flood, finding the prisoner just happened.

  • 07.22.2011 11:54 AM PDT

Joshua Piper

So your saying it was a random meeting then? Origins claims that the Flood were eradicated except for those stored on the Halos and other installations. The Grave Mind was shown being 'swept' away by Halo's firing, literally killed. the Second one grew up over 700 years on Delta Halo. Remember the Flood had been running riot for centuries on Installation 5, they could have long achieved the recommended biomass for a Grave Mind.

Guilty Spark says so in Halo 2, about the 700 year long war between the Sentinels and the Flood. Grave Mind consumes the memories and identities of thousands if not millions of sentients, its not such a stretch is it that the Flood may posses genetic memory? No, the Prisoner did not just happen to be on Charum Hakkor, it's too much of a coincidence to be a mere random occurrence.

I think it was planned for Didact/Bornsinger and Company to arrive on that planet. thats is just my opinion however. Hopefully we learn more in the second book.

[Edited on 07.22.2011 1:06 PM PDT]

  • 07.22.2011 1:03 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Righteous Fury19
So your saying it was a random meeting then? Origins claims that the Flood were eradicated except for those stored on the Halos and other installations. The Grave Mind was shown being 'swept' away by Halo's firing, literally killed. the Second one grew up over 700 years on Delta Halo. Remember the Flood had been running riot for centuries on Installation 5, they could have long achieved the recommended biomass for a Grave Mind.

Guilty Spark says so in Halo 2, about the 700 year long war between the Sentinels and the Flood. Grave Mind consumes the memories and identities of thousands if not millions of sentients, its not such a stretch is it that the Flood may posses genetic memory? No, the Prisoner did not just happen to be on Charum Hakkor, it's too much of a coincidence to be a mere random occurrence.

I think it was planned for Didact/Bornsinger and Company to arrive on that planet. thats is just my opinion however. Hopefully we learn more in the second book.


No, i am saying that is the first account we have of them.


Origins was just a summary for people that don't really know the lore. The halowars shield world was still infected not to mention the "10,000 year war" on installation 5.

Let me pull out the connections between the two since you don't know too well (not being condescending).

Medicant bias went AWOL for 43 years talking to a highly intelligent alien- He is missing for roughly 40-50 years in cryptum*

Said life-form seduced Bias- bias goes rouge in cryptum

Medicant bias attacks the forerunners under this intelligence- he attacks the capital in cryptum


This is where the asterisk comes in, it wasn't until halo evolutions that the gravemind himself said that an AI once supported him which is where we draw the initial connections between the prisoner being the gravemind.

So lets look at the gravemind and prisoner.

Gravemind is a "timeless chorus"- the prisoner is the timeless one

Gravemind "I have listened, through rock and metal and time. Now I shall talk, and you shall listen." - The humans had always asked the prisoner questions about the universe. The prisoner was also found buried under ground then had its caged reinforced and then had a timebolt placed on it.

Gravemind- "Time... has taught me patience! But basking in new freedom..."- the prisoner was trapped in time thus has learned to be patient, he is also free once more

Gravemind-Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed." - The prisoner was sentenced (duh) and beating the flood now only adds time to this (waiting to come back) humans have imposed this by fighting instead of joining.

  • 07.22.2011 1:14 PM PDT

Joshua Piper

I understand now. I knew most of this but I didn't now just how long Bias went missing for, seems strange that the Forerunners didn't try to rescue him or consider he had gone AWOL. I admit that is fairly strong evidence for the Prisoner being the Gravemind but nothing has been confirmed so all we have at the moment is clues and guesswork. Still would make sense of some of the things Gravemind says to John, like for example he says "Child of my Enemy why have you come? a Father's Sins pass to his Son".

When he said that I always assumed he was talking about the Forerunners as the Enemy of the Flood, but now I'm not so sure. If true, how the hell did he get to Installation 05? and why wasn't he destroyed at the end of the Forerunner-Flood war.

Just how has the Gravemind survived?.

  • 07.23.2011 3:28 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Righteous Fury19
I understand now. I knew most of this but I didn't now just how long Bias went missing for, seems strange that the Forerunners didn't try to rescue him or consider he had gone AWOL. I admit that is fairly strong evidence for the Prisoner being the Gravemind but nothing has been confirmed so all we have at the moment is clues and guesswork. Still would make sense of some of the things Gravemind says to John, like for example he says "Child of my Enemy why have you come? a Father's Sins pass to his Son".


Because his mission was to study the flood which would take years.

IT isn't "guess work" when you can make a list of how they are similar this is no different than police attributing a mode of operations to a criminal.


and guess what? just re-read the flood and john says the flood are "misshappen" you know who else is? the prisoner, exactly what didact said it was.


Far too many connections to be "guess work".

The last terminal states MB sent a number of his forces elsewhere. Thus if the gravemind was on one of those ships Him being in slipspace would protect him from the halo affect.
When he said that I always assumed he was talking about the Forerunners as the Enemy of the Flood, but now I'm not so sure. If true, how the hell did he get to Installation 05? and why wasn't he destroyed at the end of the Forerunner-Flood war.

Just how has the Gravemind survived?.

  • 07.23.2011 7:49 AM PDT
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Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."

they didn't exactly state that the humans reverse engineered it, but in the novel, the didact stated that the humans figured out how to slip through precursor technology and communicate with the timeless one, the didact was amazed as he said that they did something the forerunner were not able to do.

And they combined their technology with their understanding of precursor technology, like the unbending filaments and augmented their own technology. This is what happened at the battle of charum hakkor, and how the humans held of the entire forerunner fleet for 50 years.

Although greg bear was very vague when describing their technology, he did say that the humans had some sort of super-advanced orbital defense platforms back then, similar to the ODP's in 2552, just much more advanced and virtually indestructible.

But what really got me thinking is the fact that the didact said some of the new weapons the humans developed were deadly against the mighty forerunner, as they "had very little defense against" them. What could those weapons possibly be that the forerunner could barely defend against?

I doubt they were conventional directed energy weapons, as the forerunner pretty much had that sort of tech figured out, ( its a given when you realize that both humanity and the forerunner were tier 1 level)

My own hunch is that the humans using their massive concentration of precursor technology and crude understanding of neural physics made some sort of neural physical weaponry, and used it on the forerunner. Their platforms probably used this sort of technology too, how else could the humans, fend of the didacts entire fleet for 50 years on one planet, with 1/3 of their population gone b/c of the flood, and their supply routes cut off.

  • 07.23.2011 11:00 AM PDT