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Subject: X vs Y Rules of Engagement
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Course, in a universe vs universe debate... How could we really bring all the factions to bear at full strength?

To have UNSC or Covenant, the flood and forerunners have to be gone. To have forerunners, precursors have to be gone. To have precursors means everybody else isn't around. to have flood means the foreunners are majorly weakened.

And so on.

And if you apply this to all the factions... it's goes out of control.


Freak temporal rifts sends all factions to an unknown time period with all their planets and resources suspiciously intact. Must have been a wizard.

/lame excuse

  • 07.19.2011 7:48 PM PDT


Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Course, in a universe vs universe debate... How could we really bring all the factions to bear at full strength?

To have UNSC or Covenant, the flood and forerunners have to be gone. To have forerunners, precursors have to be gone. To have precursors means everybody else isn't around. to have flood means the foreunners are majorly weakened.

And so on.

And if you apply this to all the factions... it's goes out of control.


Freak temporal rifts sends all factions to an unknown time period with all their planets and resources suspiciously intact. Must have been a wizard.

/lame excuse


I tend to see cuurent incarnation rules (ala: Factpile) to be a bunch of bull. My main qualm against it is that it's almost exactly the same thing as plot shielding/nuking. Under the logic that because the COG in Gears of War got the -blam!- kicked out of them for all time, therefore the majority of their forces are dead, I can just as well say Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and Leia Organa are invincible because they're the main characters.

The plots are effecting the outcome of battle in such cases. The Locusts in a COG vs UNSC debate are a non factor, as are the plots of the series. Last I checked, neither the COG or UNSC has a nuclear plot bomb. So why is it 90% of the COG's forces are spontaniously dead in a battle that doesn't even take place on Sera or UNSC controlled space? How could the Locust have done this? They just aided the UNSC drastically, yet are supposedly a non factor. For what is, for all intents and purposes, a non-canon debate?

The question in the aforementioned scenario is "The Coalition of Ordered Governments vs the United Nation Space Command" (ground forces, hopefully). It is not "what is left of both the COG and UNSC fighting each other."

This is why rules in a VS match never make sense to me. In such a case as Star Wars vs *whatever* arguments, the fact that most of SW is hindered by a hyperspace rift is generally passed off as being unfair.......So what? Its not our fault or anyone's fault that they can't exit the galaxy. Its an in-universe hinderance that adheres to the laws of said universe. War is unfair. The rules set forth by the creators of the universe must be considered.

No fortress is perfect; they all have exploitable weaknesses. The Galaxy Far Far Away's weakness is its hyperspace rift. Putting both sides in a neutral setting can understandably lead to confusion. Would the Star Forge be eligible? Or the Mass Relays?

But then the argument can be said of course, in a scenario such as Halo vs SW that 1/3 of Halo's factions don't have intergalactic travel (UNSC and Covenant, counting the Precursors, Ancients, Forerunners and Flood as races all their own). So in such a case the only way to make it work at all would be for their to be a neutral setting.



I remember a Factpile debate (when I actually kind of had a semblance of respect for the site) debating Mass Effect vs Halo. I pointed out ME would be incabable of setting foot in Halo's universe--specifically Earth--on account of their not being a Mass Relay at Halo's Pluto.

So they said this takes place in a neutral setting, where all places exist where they should.

I then argued any attempt on the Halo planet Earth would be futile as the Covenant/UNSC/Flood/Sentinels would just camp at the Pluto/Chiron Mass Relay and spawn-trap any ship attempting to get through it. Or they could just destroy it.

So then they tried and said that that can't work on account of their being no technical Relay at Halo's Pluto, but insisted that all ME ships would have access to Halo Earth on account of this neutral world.

So they basically told me that there is a Relay there and there is not. That this "neutral world" would overlap Halo's.....or something. The rediculousness of what "fact"pile calls "logic" confounds the brightest of us, I am sure.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that there, in this case, are only two possibilities.

1) There is magically a Relay at Halo's Pluto. This defies conventional logic as Halo would have taken advantage of it long ago, and would also mean that both Earths overlap and suck each other into a quantum black hole of contradictions.

2) There is--as canon states--no Relay at Halo's Pluto. This, while being the most sensible, would mean that Mass Effect would be incapable of attacking Halo. This would ALSO mean Halo cannot attack ME as the only place ME could reside would be another, alternate Milky Way galaxy. This breaks into two more options

2.1) This would require by logical reasoning the use of intergalactic races like the Forerunners (who could at least leave galaxies easily enough) to at least get some fight going, thus ruining the "Current Incarnation" rule (and Mass Effect's hope of seeing the next day).

2.2) Mass Effect is incapable of fighting a logical battle, because it would contradict the Current Incarnation rule in too many different ways.

The only other secret third option is that ME is suddenly free to roam the galaxy without the crutch of Mass Relays. This would give Mass Effect a non-canon advantage, and defy logic yet again, because ME canon clearly states un-aided FTL is good for only short bursts before you either become stranded and die, or need to refuel.

So the way I see it, Current Incarnation rules don't make sense to me.

  • 07.19.2011 8:42 PM PDT

See, I don't use current incarnation rules just like I don't use all of universe vs all of universe.

Nor do I have generic neutral territories.

The rules I label have the location, factions(and their strength) all listed out.

  • 07.19.2011 8:47 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
See, I don't use current incarnation rules just like I don't use all of universe vs all of universe.

Nor do I have generic neutral territories.

The rules I label have the location, factions(and their strength) all listed out.


That at least makes more sense then those idiots at Falsepile who sit next to a thesarus to make themselves sound "1n73ll1g3n7" when the lack of sensible logic contradicts their "superior" vocuabulary to such a degree I have literally ROFL'd at the ignorance of it all.

In a case such as you have said, clear ground rules from the get go can at least begin to mold a battle into a coherent scenario.

Perhaps, in such a case as an Alliance Marine (Mass Effect) vs a COG soldier from Gears. Gears are more team oriented troopers, while I have no doubt of the Alliance Marine's ability to solo it. So a 1v1 fight could be a drastically different battle then a 4v4 fight, where the team-minded Gears might prevail.

This is a contrast too Alliance Marines vs The Gears, where nobody has any clue as to troop and weapon deployment. One man could be talking about Delta Squad--who were above all the best of the best--while another could be referring to the average Gear.

However, as much as such a scenario would make more sense, it is up to the OP and only the OP to incite ground rules.

  • 07.19.2011 9:03 PM PDT
Subject: X vs Y Rule of Engagement

Posted by: Xd00999
Tzeentch is much pleased with this thread. All has gone according to plan...


Do I get a cookie for understanding your reference? :D

  • 07.19.2011 9:05 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: RhinoVB117
Posted by: Xd00999
Tzeentch is much pleased with this thread. All has gone according to plan...


Do I get a cookie for understanding your reference? :D


Not really. Eldrad stole your cookie 5 days ago.

  • 07.19.2011 9:10 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Spartan1065
Aren't versus threads against the rules of the Universe anyway? I feel like I was complaining to a mod about this at some point...

Perhaps. However, we don't have a huge mod presence here so they occur. If they are going to happen, it's best they have order so we can prevent mass bannings towards those who participate.
God I wish someone active in the Universe forum would be made a mod to constantly close all off topic threads.

  • 07.19.2011 9:26 PM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

However, as much as such a scenario would make more sense, it is up to the OP and only the OP to incite ground rules.


I second this, just set up your vs scenario properly, if that means there is now a relay network throughout the haloverse so a fight can actually happen, so be it.

  • 07.20.2011 6:26 AM PDT
Subject: X vs Y Rule of Engagement
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias


Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Spartan1065
Aren't versus threads against the rules of the Universe anyway? I feel like I was complaining to a mod about this at some point...

Perhaps. However, we don't have a huge mod presence here so they occur. If they are going to happen, it's best they have order so we can prevent mass bannings towards those who participate.
God I wish someone active in the Universe forum would be made a mod to constantly close all off topic threads.


Why? You have a problem against versus thread? I don't see any problem with it as long people follow Cobra's guideline.

  • 07.20.2011 9:20 AM PDT

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