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Subject: The moral dilemma of the SPARTAN Program

Artes, Scientia, Veritas

Sapere Aude

"But I do not think we're invincible"

As entertaining and thrilling as the Halo universe is, I think one big philosophical issue that gets discussed far too little that (perhaps) Bungie was trying to raise was this: the ethics of the SPARTAN program.

I am not very well-read in Halo canon, but I do know that the way SPARTAN II's were "created" was by the kidnapping of young children who happened to meet the criteria for such supersoldiers. The ethical dilemma is then this: was it right for ONI to kidnap and forcibly conscript dozens of little children in order to save the species? Do you think there are any parallels, intentional or not, to real life military ethics? The draft, perhaps?

I'm looking forward to your discussion.

[Edited on 07.23.2011 11:43 PM PDT]

  • 07.23.2011 11:42 PM PDT
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I'm not sure if you'd consider this on-topic, but this was the only aspect I really enjoyed about the "Pariah" story in Halo: Evolutions. Not so much the kidnapping, but the augmentation process. The first-hand account of Soren-066 and his pain and confusion really shed new light on that whole process. I always thought that was kinda glazed over in both TFoR and GoO.

Other than that the story sucked, but that's another issue.

  • 07.23.2011 11:56 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

It comes down to whether you believe in it is okay to sacrifice few to save the many. If this was during the Covenant war, it would have been easier to rationalize, but the Spartan IIs were designed for insurrectionist dissemination.

I think it's interesting to read Halsey's thoughts on the moral issue as well, as you hear her talk about these difficult choices in the books.

  • 07.23.2011 11:56 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Posted by: DoctorCoitus
I'm not sure if you'd consider this on-topic, but this was the only aspect I really enjoyed about the "Pariah" story in Halo: Evolutions. Not so much the kidnapping, but the augmentation process. The first-hand account of Soren-066 and his pain and confusion really shed new light on that whole process. I always thought that was kinda glazed over in both TFoR and GoO.

Other than that the story sucked, but that's another issue.

Pariah wasn't bad, what didn't you like?

But I think the Fall of Reach did do a good job describing the moral issues as well as the process. It's just that Pariah focused on an individual whereas the novel focused on it in general.

  • 07.23.2011 11:58 PM PDT
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It's not my job to disprove that your 'God' exists. It's your's to prove it does.

"Eímai ánthro̱pos. Eímai óla gia ména. Den ypárchoun Theoí ».

Omega Gamma

You might say it's indoctrination of a sort. These kids were 6 at the time so take it as you will.

But if you read some of the Novels from John-117s point of veiw, he is glad he became a SPARTAN. It gave him the chance to do something that actually matters in the Universe (plus he didn't end up dying when The Covenant glassed Eridanus II) and I'd all of the SPARTAN-IIs had that mentality as well.

The moral delemmia from the kidnappers, trainers Halsey, Keyes, and whoever else knows *cough*ONI*cough* come down to how much they know and how they cope with it.

The Kidnappers. They knew jack all so their conciousness was clean. They had nothing to feel guilty about.

Halsey, she bares the full weight of this issue. It was her plan and she did it. She copped by become a surrogute mother figure to the SPARTAN-IIs. I suggest reading her diary, really good insite.

The Trainers. Teach them like you'd teach any other recruit. Don't under estimate them. Here's your pay. No Questions asked.

Keyes. He knew what they became and interacted with them on a regular basis (particularly John-117) and formed a friendship/mutual respect with him. We don't know how he was with the rest of the SPARTAN-IIs so we can't make a full evaluation on him.

Johnson. Him and the SPARTAN-IIs had family picnics ever other weekend. In other words, he knew bits and peices, maybe enough to finish the puzzle himself, but ultimately they were friends (John/Johnson) and he was their superior.

ONI, they're the ones who sanctioned the program, like they have any moral doubts/regrets. They couldn't care less about morals. They have a job to do and screw the minor details.


The SPARTAN-IIIs however are a different matter.



[Edited on 07.24.2011 12:16 AM PDT]

  • 07.24.2011 12:04 AM PDT
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Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Posted by: DoctorCoitus
I'm not sure if you'd consider this on-topic, but this was the only aspect I really enjoyed about the "Pariah" story in Halo: Evolutions. Not so much the kidnapping, but the augmentation process. The first-hand account of Soren-066 and his pain and confusion really shed new light on that whole process. I always thought that was kinda glazed over in both TFoR and GoO.

Other than that the story sucked, but that's another issue.

Pariah wasn't bad, what didn't you like?

But I think the Fall of Reach did do a good job describing the moral issues as well as the process. It's just that Pariah focused on an individual whereas the novel focused on it in general.


This might not make sense, but I thought it was good only from a literary perspective. It had plenty of symbolism and metaphor, but as part of the Halo Universe in general, I just didn't feel like it really had much to offer.

In other words, if it wasn't a Halo story, but just a random sci-fi story on its own, the themes would've been a lot more meaningful.

  • 07.24.2011 12:05 AM PDT

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Halsey knew exactly what it meant to kidnap those kids. It was her decision, and she alone bears that weight. It was a sacrifice for the greater good, harm the minority to save the majority.

Does our own government make parallel decisions such as these? Sure they do, many behind closed doors and the prying eyes of the public. It'd be nice to say that all of those were sacrifices for the good of Americans or humanity in general. But that's just not the world we live in.

The idea for the Spartan II program was to create super soldiers that could end the largest civil war in human history. To stop the fighting, the attacks, the genocide and atrocities committed by both sides of the war. Granted, the UNSC and ONI had no interest in losing. The Spartans were to eliminate HVTs and assassinate or capture leaders of the Insurrectionists to end the war quickly and with minimal loss of life.

And they might have just succeeded if the Covenant had never shown up. But even then, they proved to be critical to the survival of the human race during that war.

So, regardless, it was the right thing to do. It is ethical, in times of war, to save as many lives as possible.

  • 07.24.2011 12:07 AM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

Omega... You're very wrong.
Many people will have thoughts about it after the war is over.

Halo: Glasslands.
it will be one of the subjects in it.

[Edited on 07.24.2011 9:28 AM PDT]

  • 07.24.2011 12:07 AM PDT
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It's not my job to disprove that your 'God' exists. It's your's to prove it does.

"Eímai ánthro̱pos. Eímai óla gia ména. Den ypárchoun Theoí ».

Omega Gamma


Posted by: Spartan 100
Omega... You're bery wrong.
Many people will have thoughts about it after the war is over.

Halo: Glasslands.
it will be one of the subjects in it.


I'd say I'm bery right.

Sure civilians and such will have thoughts on it. Mostly jsut veiwing the SPARTANs as Hero figures. The only real thoughts about the moral issue are the people who know what was really going on. The general public wasn't even ment to know of the SPARTANs existance. They only found out for a moral boost. If the UNSC/ONI told the FULL truth they'd be for lack of a better description, have the public turn their back on them and they'd maybe all become insurrectionalist.


It all comes down to how much you know, how involved you were and how you cope with it.

[Edited on 07.24.2011 12:25 AM PDT]

  • 07.24.2011 12:09 AM PDT

HELLLO! Wake up dude.
Halo is full of these.

Humans: Spartan program.
Covenant: Blind faith and religion.
Forerunners: Practices of extreme measure in war (plus probably a whole bunch of crap to be honest....)

  • 07.24.2011 4:27 AM PDT

I like Call of Duty and Gears of War, AND Halo. Why must everyone else like only one or the other?


Posted by: Spartan 100
Halo: Glasslands.
it will be one of the subjects in it.


Indeed. Given how Karen Traviss really went into the moral dilemma about the clone army in her Star Wars Republic/Imperial Commando books, I'd say it'd be impossible for her to not touch on the issue of the SPARTAN program. Can't wait to see that, especially given that I loved that she was an author that didn't kiss ass over the Jedi, like almost every other Star Wars author seems to do. Hopefully she'll really get into Halsey and how she's a real piece of work.

  • 07.24.2011 6:16 AM PDT

Hello! I'm Bunie.net's resident medical student (hell i'm sure there are more but I'm the only one who openly declares it!) I love my emblem, and I am periodically active.
I have a Twitter

Save the many by sacrificing the few, its something that has been done throughout time, and while not totally ethical, it can be justified. The loss of a hundred or so children who are trained to save all those lives? I think thats ok.

Also, the kids where cloned and sent back to their parents so when they eventually died, it was at least closure for the parents.

  • 07.24.2011 7:41 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

The Insurrection, which is what the SPARTAN-IIs were originally created to combat, was a result of the UNSC's very authoritarian and totalitarian grip on all Human worlds. The outer colonies were badly exploited. From the Insurrectionists point of view there were famines and diseases on outer colony worlds that the UNSC could not care less about. They just mined the resources and then buggered off.

People wanted freedom from this exploitation, which began the Insurrection. Initially it was peaceful lobbying, but the UNSC refused to listen, things escalated and the UNSC/ONI met fire with fire. Had the UNSC not run the Human Empire with an iron fist, the Insurrection may never have happened and the impending civil war would most likely not have been a problem. The SPARTAN program was essentially an application of "Two wrongs make a right", which they do not. So the lives of 75 children/families were destroyed for a problem which they had no part in creating in order to fix said problem, which was created instead by the very organisation which mandated the project. There were other alternatives, like giving the colonies sovereignty.

Of course it would be easy for one to say "but it proved instrumental for when the Covenant arrived". The UNSC did not know about the Covenant when the project was mandated.

Edit: I should maybe also point out as well, that since the SPARTAN program exists to preserve the grip of the UNSC on the colonies, they are essentially being used to keep people in exploitation by preventing them from speaking out against the UNSC. They are tools of oppression in a sense.

[Edited on 07.24.2011 9:45 AM PDT]

  • 07.24.2011 8:49 AM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

You people disapoint me.
Bravo Anton!

  • 07.24.2011 9:31 AM PDT

Hmm, while Anton's point sounds valid... It doesn't sound universally true. I mean, the kids from Harvest certainly didn't see the UNSC as taking everything and giving nothing (DIRT).

Really I see it simply as similar to the America Revolution, the further from the home planet/nation, the less ties there are. Thus situations are fully understood by either group, and disagreements are likely.

Regardless, the Spartan program came to be due to the exscelating actions of the rebels, which targeted more and more civilians then UNSC servicemen.

[Edited on 07.24.2011 9:51 AM PDT]

  • 07.24.2011 9:48 AM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

If you have read the Halo novels, then you would see that Halsey has serious problems about the morals of the project, see´s herself as a monster.

  • 07.24.2011 11:46 AM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: NewRadical12
was it right for ONI to kidnap and forcibly conscript dozens of little children in order to save the species?


If they hadn't those kids would all be dead anyway. Although it wasn't even to save the species at that time, it was just the Insurrection going on then. Anyway, the end justifies the means.

  • 07.24.2011 12:01 PM PDT


Posted by: HipiO7
If you have read the Halo novels, then you would see that Halsey has serious problems about the morals of the project, see´s herself as a monster.


I have, I'm not saying it's not something bad, I'm simply saying it was started in response to a massively bad threat of a problem taken too far by the other side.

  • 07.24.2011 12:07 PM PDT


Posted by: NewRadical12
The ethical dilemma is then this: was it right for ONI to kidnap and forcibly conscript dozens of little children in order to save the species?


It's actually worse. The Spartan II program was developed in response to the civil war between the UNSC and the separatists.

You have a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats who wanted to keep hold of their power. They decided to grab these kids for their own needs. Not for the good of humanity, or the people, but their own power.

It may have turned out for the greater good, once the covenant started their genocide, but that doesn't excuse the acts of those who took these children.

  • 07.24.2011 12:28 PM PDT


Posted by: Colichemarde

Posted by: NewRadical12
The ethical dilemma is then this: was it right for ONI to kidnap and forcibly conscript dozens of little children in order to save the species?


It's actually worse. The Spartan II program was developed in response to the civil war between the UNSC and the separatists.

You have a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats who wanted to keep hold of their power. They decided to grab these kids for their own needs. Not for the good of humanity, or the people, but their own power.

It may have turned out for the greater good, once the covenant started their genocide, but that doesn't excuse the acts of those who took these children.


Actually, the rebels were escalating the conflict (Nuking an entire damn colony much? Massive death toll, massive radiation poisoning and sickness + injuries, and long term effects of that), and Halsey figured it out if they kept on the track, they'd control the outer colonies. Then they'd use FTL transports to create massive bombs and use them.

  • 07.24.2011 12:49 PM PDT

"I don't care if it's God's own anti-Son of a -blam!- Machine or a giant hula-hoop!"

Yes, the ethics are questionable at best.

However, Bungie did not "showcase" the SPARTAN II training programs in game. In fact, I don't believe it mentioned them once. (It might have in reach, but I don't remember it happening.)

It was mainly discussed in The Fall of Reach and proved to be a great reference point for the "Halo Universe".

So in my opinion, I don't think Bunige should have any blame for these training program morals.

You wouldn't blame J.R.R. Tolkien for something controversial in the movies.

[Edited on 07.24.2011 1:00 PM PDT]

  • 07.24.2011 12:52 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Actually, the rebels were escalating the conflict (Nuking an entire damn colony much? Massive death toll, massive radiation poisoning and sickness + injuries, and long term effects of that), and Halsey figured it out if they kept on the track, they'd control the outer colonies. Then they'd use FTL transports to create massive bombs and use them.


There was a long lead-up to the insurrection, and the UNSC had already done simulations showing it would lead to civil war. Instead of letting the colonies self govern they fought to hold onto theit power.

  • 07.24.2011 12:54 PM PDT

The lead up I can recall was UNSC personnel being attacked and murdered. Then more and more killings happened, then CIVILIANS were targeted as well.

Frankly, I will never see the rebels are the good guys/innocent as some seem to want to portray them (with UNSC being the big bad). Whatever goals they had in the begining disappeared real quick into the "We'll kill a -blam!-on of innocents in that club just to try to harm some ODST's who frequent it."

  • 07.24.2011 1:03 PM PDT

The insurrection happened for a reason, but neither side is innocent. Child soldiers, and bombs against soft targets, I'd want none of it.

  • 07.24.2011 1:18 PM PDT

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