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Subject: The moral dilemma of the SPARTAN Program

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The lead up I can recall was UNSC personnel being attacked and murdered. Then more and more killings happened, then CIVILIANS were targeted as well.

Page 61 of Contact Harvest will clear this up.

Initially the UNSC was not the face that the Insurrection immediately viewed as oppressive, it was the CMA. It says that the CMA dictated what jobs they should take and even as far as dictating the number of children they were allowed to have. The CMA were puppets to the UNSC and were run with the mindset of an Earth or Inner colony citizen unfamiliar with life and challenges in the outer fringe worlds.

The CMA was initially attacked. Then the UNSC got involved. It was the UNSC's counter-initiatives that lead to more and more innocents being killed. The UNSC stepped up the suppression attempts and the Insurrection stepped up its attacks. It was like an arms race. The UNSC's actions are to blame as much as the Insurrectionists are.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Frankly, I will never see the rebels are the good guys/innocent as some seem to want to portray them (with UNSC being the big bad). Whatever goals they had in the begining disappeared real quick into the "We'll kill a -blam!-on of innocents in that club just to try to harm some ODST's who frequent it."

You do not have to see them as right in order for the UNSC to be seen as unethical. Nor does the actions of extremists necessarily sour an entire ideal. Indeed, it was radicals that were responsible for the bombings, not the movement as a whole.

  • 07.24.2011 1:26 PM PDT

I personally think that the sacrifice of a few childhoods for all of humanity, and onto of that really what they were doing was giving them the ability to truly survive an attack by the covenantand protect their families. therefore really they aren't sacrificing these children but rather putting them through hell to give them the know how to survive the hell that they will face.

  • 07.24.2011 1:37 PM PDT

Ah, it's been a while since I've read any of the books to be honest. Thanks for clearing it up that it was the CMA(which got disbanded pretty early didn't it?) and not UNSC. Was pretty sure I didn't remember anything about UNSC being truly oppressive :P.

Hmm, I'll give you that. I tend to follow that viewpoint as well. Guess it's like the master chief fanboys(The worst group, not in general). It eventually hits a point where it sounds like they were really the good guys, and the UNSC is pure evil.

That's the real problem(IMO) with the rebels. The ones who truly just wanted to be left to their own devices did just that, making asteroid colonies and keeping entirely to themselves. I think nearly all the rebels we hear about are of the group that was just attacking the UNSC to attack the UNSC.

  • 07.24.2011 1:46 PM PDT
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97X

Well without Cheif humanity would have been destroyed, but the spartans were orginally created to combat the rebles

[Edited on 07.24.2011 2:16 PM PDT]

  • 07.24.2011 2:16 PM PDT

Jesus loves you! But I think you're a -blam!-

It's not like Doctor Halsey is very proud of herself.

  • 07.27.2011 4:35 PM PDT

"It will not be we who reach Alpha Centauri, and the other nearby stars, it will be a species very like us, but with more of our strengths and fewer of our weaknesses, more confident, far-seeing, capable, and prudent. For all our failings, despite our limitations and fallibilities, we humans are capable of greatness."-Carl Sagan


Posted by: HerSeksBiscuit
It's not like Doctor Halsey is very proud of herself.


I think the washed out Spartans will want a few words with her.

  • 07.27.2011 4:39 PM PDT

That to me is one of the most intriguing parts of the story. I think the draft is a great parallel, but I also think there's a much more obvious parallel than that: Spartans.

The Spartan name was most likely used by Dr. Halsey to describe their fierce training regimen, bravery, and combat effectiveness, but I find it to be a coincidence that it also describes how they are created. Healthy Spartan children were taken from their mothers at birth to be trained to fight. Maybe it wasn't a coincidence. Maybe Dr. Halsey took this into account when naming her super soldiers.

I think given the circumstances, the Spartan Program was needed. Doing the right thing can sometimes seem like the most unethical thing. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, right?

[Edited on 07.27.2011 4:48 PM PDT]

  • 07.27.2011 4:45 PM PDT

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Posted by: I Nebula I

Posted by: HerSeksBiscuit
It's not like Doctor Halsey is very proud of herself.


I think the washed out Spartans will want a few words with her.



Actually, all the washed out Spartans feel like THEY are the one who failed and weren't strong enough to pass the augmentations. They are all in recovery and every one of them are still itching to take a position in logistics, engineering, or anywhere else they can be useful to the fight. We have no record of any Spartan being bitter about their life and training so far.

  • 07.27.2011 5:21 PM PDT

"It will not be we who reach Alpha Centauri, and the other nearby stars, it will be a species very like us, but with more of our strengths and fewer of our weaknesses, more confident, far-seeing, capable, and prudent. For all our failings, despite our limitations and fallibilities, we humans are capable of greatness."-Carl Sagan


Posted by: JobeTheConqueror

We have no record of any Spartan being bitter about their life and training so far.


Soren hated what happened.

  • 07.27.2011 5:23 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
The Insurrection, which is what the SPARTAN-IIs were originally created to combat, was a result of the UNSC's very authoritarian and totalitarian grip on all Human worlds. The outer colonies were badly exploited. From the Insurrectionists point of view there were famines and diseases on outer colony worlds that the UNSC could not care less about. They just mined the resources and then buggered off.

Of course it would be easy for one to say "but it proved instrumental for when the Covenant arrived". The UNSC did not know about the Covenant when the project was mandated.


Meh, I've never really seen anything that makes the UNSC seem like an oppressive totalitarian regime, they certainly aren't very democratic from what little we know, but I've never seen anything that makes them any better or worse really than the majority of governments we have today.

And I've never seen any evidence at all to support the Insurrectionist's claims that the UNSC was gobbling up all the resources from the colonies.

People wanted freedom from this exploitation, which began the Insurrection. Initially it was peaceful lobbying, but the UNSC refused to listen, things escalated and the UNSC/ONI met fire with fire. Had the UNSC not run the Human Empire with an iron fist, the Insurrection may never have happened and the impending civil war would most likely not have been a problem. The SPARTAN program was essentially an application of "Two wrongs make a right", which they do not. So the lives of 75 children/families were destroyed for a problem which they had no part in creating in order to fix said problem, which was created instead by the very organisation which mandated the project. There were other alternatives, like giving the colonies sovereignty.


When looking at things from the outside, as we are with Halo's story, you have to look at all sides to a story, and from what I've seen there is no evidence to back up the claims of the Insurrection, I've seen no exploitation of the colonies and no true oppression from the UNSC.

And IIRC the UNSC did not refuse to listen, they tried to find a solution to the problems the initial groups that evolved into the Innies brought up. And breaking away completely from the UNSC was an opinion of the few amongst the dissidents. In any case, the Insurrection crossed the line and became nothing more than a radical terrorist group that quickly moved from targeting just the UNSC military to civilians and anything in between.

*sigh*
That's not the reason for the Spartan program at all, the reason for the Spartan program was to eliminate the danger to the UNSC's stability and to protect its citizens from radical terrorists, whatever the intentions of the Innies might have been that is what they were. Nothing more than a group of radical terrorists going around killing massive numbers of people to try and make their point. And giving the colonies sovereignty would have done almost nothing. Do you honestly think that would have completely stopped the Insurrection? From everything I've seen the Insurrectionists would not have been satisfied with that, they would have wanted more and would have pushed for it.

It's like a child throwing a temper tantrum, if you give in to the tantrum the child is only going to throw more to get its way. The Insurrection is much the same thing.

Without giving in, which as I already said would not be the right decision, what other alternatives did the UNSC have?

Yes, the Spartan program was morally questionable, but it is much the same thing as when the U.S. dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, if the U.S. and other Allied forces had invaded Japan then the death tolls would have been immensely catastrophic and would have far exceeded whatever deaths were caused by the bombs. The same is true of the Spartan program.

Edit: I should maybe also point out as well, that since the SPARTAN program exists to preserve the grip of the UNSC on the colonies, they are essentially being used to keep people in exploitation by preventing them from speaking out against the UNSC. They are tools of oppression in a sense.

Again, no, the Spartan program was created to end the threat presented by the rebels, they were not sent against normal civilians or used to suppress free speech. They were being used against terrorists killing thousands, if not millions, of innocent people, not against people had no part in the violence. I do not see them as tools of oppression at all.

  • 08.03.2011 8:11 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

coma, anton is actually right all of that has been established in TFoR.


  • 08.03.2011 8:16 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101
coma, anton is actually right all of that has been established in TFoR.


Actually no he really isn't, not entirely. I never got any of those readings at all from TFoR, or anything else dealing with the early phases of the Spartan Program and latter years of the Insurrection.

  • 08.05.2011 9:49 AM PDT

< Insert witty comment/joke here >

Benjamin!

I'd say it was questionable to kidnap the children, but it's all in the name of the greater good. As OrderedComa has said, though the UNSC might not have have been the perfect government system, but there's no evidence to suggest they've done anything to deserve such ire from the Insurrection. Bombing civilians and the use of nuclear weapons in the name of taxation and being assigned jobs is absurd and I think it's pretty clear that the UNSC would need to take heavier measures for the cause of relative peace in their "empire".
As others have said, the sacrifice of the few for many.
In addition, though it may be in large part due to their impressionable age, many of the Spartan candidates were glad of their selection. There were a few who chose to resist, but the majority do not appear to have felt great resentment towards Halsey, atleast in the works we have so far.

  • 08.05.2011 10:19 AM PDT


Posted by: Colichemarde

Posted by: NewRadical12
The ethical dilemma is then this: was it right for ONI to kidnap and forcibly conscript dozens of little children in order to save the species?


It's actually worse. The Spartan II program was developed in response to the civil war between the UNSC and the separatists.

You have a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats who wanted to keep hold of their power. They decided to grab these kids for their own needs. Not for the good of humanity, or the people, but their own power.

It may have turned out for the greater good, once the covenant started their genocide, but that doesn't excuse the acts of those who took these children.


That's not why the Spartan Program was created. The Insurrection had crossed the line from freedom and independance fighters to radical terrorists. The reason the Spartan Program was created was to stop all of the senseless bloodshed of a galactic wide terrorist cell. It was created for the good of humanity, humanity was headed down the road to a very bloody civil war that would have completely devastated the human race. The Spartan IIs were created in a response to that threat, not as a means to hold onto power.

I would also suggest that you go read the Data Pads, it gives an interesting little insight into the Spartan II Program and its relation to the Covenant.

Was the creation of the Spartan II Project and the kidnapping of the children an ethical decision to make, no, not really, but ultimately it was better than the alternative. Much the same as with the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WWII.

  • 08.05.2011 5:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: grey101
coma, anton is actually right all of that has been established in TFoR.


Actually no he really isn't, not entirely. I never got any of those readings at all from TFoR, or anything else dealing with the early phases of the Spartan Program and latter years of the Insurrection.


The SPARTAN program was clearly created to stop the rebels the sub-text of that is they are tools of oppression. The Armor,the augmentations, that is a HELL of a lot just for fighting normal humans. Funny how no spartan has ever been killed by innes, i wonder why; because it was over kill.

Now i am a cynical SoB, but that is alot even for me, not to mention children were being used for this not adults that chose to fight.


Now don't get me wrong i support the SPARTAN program, but don't honestly say they aren't tools of war.



The spartan III program i don't really like do to the fact they were literally cannon fodder, i feel like ackerson is a fool because 300 SIII sure as hell would have been useful on Reach. Earth would have been smart also, but i don't want some story with 300 SIIIs being on the planet and we still got F----d

  • 08.05.2011 7:57 PM PDT
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my gt is Godzillla....i just didnt link it properly

we wouldnt have survived the war without spartans so yea its justified

  • 08.05.2011 10:55 PM PDT

Eh. Its pretty complicated for me. I don't know how to express my feelings about it. Its wrong to kiddnap the children, but I look at the spartan program like they are the spartans of ancient Greece.. Its hard to explain.. you have to make sacrifice things when you are the best of the best.

  • 08.05.2011 11:23 PM PDT

The ends justify the means.

  • 08.05.2011 11:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: USArmyRanger7RB
The ends justify the means.


If you even knew what that truly meant you would know that it does not currently apply.

  • 08.05.2011 11:29 PM PDT

I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
--Ralph Ellison

Was the Spartan-II program started before or after the Insurrectionists started more aggressive terrorist attacks (such as the nuke on the cruise ship or the nuke in the city killing millions)? I can't recall that timeline.

  • 08.05.2011 11:36 PM PDT

Posted by: grey101
Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: grey101
coma, anton is actually right all of that has been established in TFoR.


Actually no he really isn't, not entirely. I never got any of those readings at all from TFoR, or anything else dealing with the early phases of the Spartan Program and latter years of the Insurrection.


The SPARTAN program was clearly created to stop the rebels the sub-text of that is they are tools of oppression. The Armor,the augmentations, that is a HELL of a lot just for fighting normal humans. Funny how no spartan has ever been killed by innes, i wonder why; because it was over kill.

Now i am a cynical SoB, but that is alot even for me, not to mention children were being used for this not adults that chose to fight.


Now don't get me wrong i support the SPARTAN program, but don't honestly say they aren't tools of war.



The spartan III program i don't really like do to the fact they were literally cannon fodder, i feel like ackerson is a fool because 300 SIII sure as hell would have been useful on Reach. Earth would have been smart also, but i don't want some story with 300 SIIIs being on the planet and we still got F----d


They certainly are tools meant for war, and they're most effective. I just don't see them as tools of oppression :/ Part of that probably originates from my views of the Insurrection, I'm sure. I'll never be able to see the Insurrectionists as anything but terrorists, no matter what their intentions may be or how noble they are, their actions speak far more loudly to me than their ideals.

Mark IV doesn't really seem like overkill to me *shrug* It was only a couple steps above the normal armor everyone used. But yeah, the augmentations are a bit overkill for sure. And actually, this is where things start to get interesting, one of the Data Pads (I don't remember which) talks about the AIs knowing that Humans weren't alone in the galaxy and that in part the Spartan program was created.

But yeah I support the Spartan Program, but I don't really approve of it, if that makes sense. It was a necessary evil that I think ultimately redeemed itself.

Posted by: KoO 101
Was the Spartan-II program started before or after the Insurrectionists started more aggressive terrorist attacks (such as the nuke on the cruise ship or the nuke in the city killing millions)? I can't recall that timeline.


I believe it was around the height of the Insurrection when the Spartans were created, so it would be after they started killing massive numbers of Civvies. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

  • 08.06.2011 9:10 AM PDT

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