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Subject: E3 2004 Criticism. A few major changes recommended.
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In spite of the fact that we are only the audience and the real toil of developing Halo 2 cannot be fully understood by our passive reception of the demo, I have to agree with the original post on this topic.

1. I felt that homing rockets were unbalanced not in of themselves, but because they lock on in a split-second. I can see the function being fair and useful at long distnaces, but at long distances, given how easy it is to bead onto a target and stay on it, I think there should be a second of locking on time, at the very least, perhaps varying on distance. It would be lame to pull out a rocket launcher, zoom in and let loose, fully confident that without much in the way of skill, you're probably going to hit an unsuspecting target a hundred meters away. The problem is that in the first Halo, one had to predict the movement of the target and fire in anticipation of it, whereas the lock-on system works so that a player just points and shoots. There is no predicting involved--just put the reticule on the target and go. Of course, angles, distances, and the behavior of the rocket will complicate things a bit, not to mention the boosting ability of the warthog and ghost, but what since this can be done from long range, it's unfair to expect drivers to see rockets--even dumbfired ones--coming in from every direction, let only simply being fired at long distances. Furthermore, won't locked on rocket-launching simply defeat the use of tanks and any other vehicle that cannot boost?

On the other hand,I am certain Bungie will see these problems coming, and probably has already planned accordingly.

2. The plasma swords have been dowsed with buckets of sand and have become glass. Electric sparks running through the blades? That's crap--oh, I'm real sure that everyone, in the midst of the game with everything moving around, will zero in on the "electric sparks" in the fragile-looking crystal blades and not mistake them for simple light reflections along the blades. In any case, I think the original Halo plasma sword look was more intimidating, simpler and far cooler. At least the animations for player getting slapped around by the icicle seems alright. The control system seems pretty accessible, too.

These are the two main problems I had with the demo. The other quibbles I had I consider minor since I believe they will be improved upon before the game is shipped--the ghost's destructible parts look like they're simply disappearing when they're shot, not even rotting or melting or burning, more like a magic trick where poof something disappears--things like that.

All in all, I felt the demo was disappointing simply because not much was really SHOWN. Sure, new actions the player can perform were displayed but things looked kind of archaic, recycled--the models are quite nice, even if downgraded from the trailers before, but the animations were heavily lacking. The ANIMATIONS. I read a while back in an EGM magazine (I think it was) that elites will behave with a feline streak, that jackals will exhibit bird-like instincts, and so forth. From the demo, it looked like, from the static standing and movement patterns shown, that the animations have not moved up very far from the original Halo's example. I think that this far into development, with less than six months before release, it is too late to hope that the animations in the game will improve--there goes any hope I had for immersion. Despite whatever environments Halo 2 will take us on, I get the feeling that Halo 2's enemies will feel like robots rather than living beings. These animations were great for the first Halo's time, but I think games have moved on. Didn't Marcus Lehto exhalt animation as what makes our games live these days? What about those bungie weekly updates, where Frankie praised the improvements in animation over the first Halo? Maybe the improvements are there, and we just didn't have a chance to see them?

With letdowns like this year's demo, I fear for the rest of claims I've read about--larger levels that are less repetitive and involve a less horizontal scope over the first Halo? This had better be more than PR hot steam--reminds me of Killzone's cries of revolutionary graphics and gameplay, giving Halo a run for its money, and so forth.

  • 05.12.2004 5:11 AM PDT
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Posted by: kesdawg69
Glad mine's paid for.


kesdawg69, what do you mean with mine's paid for? where have you pre-orderd it?

  • 05.12.2004 5:17 AM PDT
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I loved the videos, although the quality (of the videos, not the game :-) ), isn't very good...
I love the plasma sword. It looks great IMO.
I really love the interactivity in the level, the way for getting the plasma sword is awesome!
The vehicle damage rocks!!! Especially that wartog's wheel.
The homing rockets seem balanced to me...also remember that in a real MP game, other people will shoot at you while you try to lock the RL on a vehicle...
Excuse me, I'm gonna watch the videos again and see if I like the reload animation... :-)

...Just watched them again, and I think the reload animation looks really cool!

[Edited on 5/12/2004 5:32:54 AM]

  • 05.12.2004 5:20 AM PDT
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People, take the movie, then take the multiplayer pictures... How many of the rockets in those pictures have actually hit something besides the terrain?

  • 05.12.2004 5:32 AM PDT
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I would have to disagree with all of the above points, with the exception of the rocket launcher. While I don't really perfer homing rockets, they're just fine. It's not going to make me not want to buy the game, or anything.

Personally, I think you need to calm down. E3's floor room has just opened today. They may not have even shown off everything they want to.

I don't think people were disappointed. I don't think they knew whether the presentation was done or not. There could've been another movie of some sort. You don't stand up during the middle of a movie at the theater/re and start clapping, do you?

About the energy sword: how, exactly, would you go about spotting a handle? If you noticed, the handle/grip was pretty damned small. Unless you're an eagle or a falcon, I don't expect you could see one across the level.

  • 05.12.2004 5:39 AM PDT
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why should the animations be slower? spartans have 400% better reflexes than humans so its realistic to the story

  • 05.12.2004 6:00 AM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Posted by: OrangeDragon
As some of you may have noticed - it took several shots just to destroy the warthog, which goes to show you that the power of the Rocket launcher has been decreased.


That makes absolutely no sense. How in the hell did you come to that conclusion? There were not any destructible Warthogs in the original.

And, I somewhat agree, that a projectile which locks onto it's target is kind of lame. I prefer the leading method, which requires a nice blend of luck, skill, anticipation, and so on.. Plus, everyone goes nuts when they see someone take out a flag runner in a hog from halfway across the map. Now, all you have to do is lock on.. How exciting! <-- That was sarcasm.

In any case, I'll learn to live with it. I can accept changes.

I can already see how important it is in Halo 2 for snipers to pick out routes (in more ways than one) for drivers which are safe from rocket launchers and fuel rod whores. ; ) Also, a new high priority for Snipers will be to take out enemies that are the most likely to keep their team from achieving their goal - Winning. In the original, snipers were best used as "spawn killers".. That'll change come Halo 2.


And if it's anything like the original, players can't stay zoomed in when they're being hit by projectiles/plasma fire/grenades.. etc..


[Edited on 5/12/2004 6:26:47 AM]

  • 05.12.2004 6:22 AM PDT
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The Halo 2 Multiplayer is better than my expectations. I loved how real the Warthog physics were this time around and the Rockets. I didn't really want the Plasma Sword as a playable weapon in Halo 2 because I thought it would detract from the game, but now that I have seen it in action, I love it!! I liked the Battle Rifle reload animation. I like the Dual-Wielding controls. I like the new Needler. I love Halo 2 and it's Multiplayer. Keep up the very good work Bungie and don't let the comments like the first one in this thread get you down.

[Edited on 5/12/2004 7:30:27 AM]

  • 05.12.2004 6:52 AM PDT
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concerning the issue of homing rockets.
as was mentioned earlier, the need for this feature is great, considering the new boost feature and the inclusion of flying vehicles. leading a shot on a vehicle confined to 2 dimensions is well and good, but when that vehicle is able to maneuver in 3 dimensional space, it becomes a bit more problematic. the speed of the rockets did seem a tad bit slower to me, but that's a good thing because it still allows you (as the driver of the vehicle) to evade the rocket, or at least minimize the point of impact. and again, it does seem like the homing feature will only work against vehicles. if memory serves me, the targeting reticle didn't even turn red when it was placed over the elite on foot. the second it got on the warthog, though, it did turn red. as far as it rendering tanks obsolete, we still don't have much of an idea as to how much punishment they will be able to absorb. maybe this time around they will actually have armor, and be able to absorb 1 or more rockets. it's still all too early to tell.

  • 05.12.2004 7:00 AM PDT
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Posted by: Twelve Large
Posted by: OrangeDragon
As some of you may have noticed - it took several shots just to destroy the warthog, which goes to show you that the power of the Rocket launcher has been decreased.


After the first rocket though, you will start to loose control and sometimes it will flip the vehicle or kill the person driving it.


And if it's anything like the original, players can't stay zoomed in when they're being hit by projectiles/plasma fire/grenades.. etc..


If you noticed though that the 2nd time he launched a homing rocket... he was locked on to the warthog for what looked to me less than a second.

  • 05.12.2004 7:08 AM PDT
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You guys are nit-picking. You are picking out what disagrees with what you expect the game to be. Has Bungie ever let us down before? No. So why do you think they would include RL homing if they thought it would ruin gameplay? You seem to be forgetting that they are testing this game every day.

Now, if you were playing Halo 2 every day, and it still hadn't come out yet, and ten billion people are all on the edge of their seats waiting for just a screenshot, do you think that you would release a game that is unfair and boring? NO. If Bungie is playing MP and they find something they think is too cheap or easy, they take it out. If everybody is continually complaining about how easy it is to hit a moving vehicle, they are not going to just sit there and do nothing about it!!!

Bungie will not disappoint us. I don't care how much you complain about "reloading animation", I would be happy if the game looked like a N64 game, as long as it is fun.

For those of you who think that graphics is what makes a game good, go play Half-Life 2 or Doom 3. I, on the other hand, will be whupping my friends on Halo 2's MP when it comes out. You will be stuck staring at your graphics, and wishing there was an actual game to play...

(I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just pointing out that Bungie knows what they're doing. So quit complaining!!!)

[Edited on 5/12/2004 7:32:05 AM]

  • 05.12.2004 7:31 AM PDT
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ten billion people

The Earth population is just over 6 Billion. And I didn't nit-pick, I thought everything about that demo was awesome.

  • 05.12.2004 8:03 AM PDT
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You realize that E3 is not over and I doubt that Bungie has showed us everything that they are going to at E3.

  • 05.12.2004 8:11 AM PDT
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1. THIS GAME IS NOT DONE , SO BATTLERIFLE ANIMATIONS MAY NOT BE FINISHED, PLUS THE RELOAD ANIMATION WAS A BIT FASTER WHICH IS PROBABLY TO KEEP THE PACE UP IN MULTIPLAYER, THE OLD RELOAD STYLE YOU LOVED IS PROBABLY STILL THERE IN MULTI,

2 NOTHING WRONG WITH TRACKING ROCKETS, IT PLACES A GOOD CHECK ON VEHICLE USAGE WHICH IF YOU HAVE EVER PLAYED GAMES LIKE BATTLEFIELD 1942 ETC. PEOPLE ARE VEHICLE WHORES, SO THIS IS A NICE BALANCE CHECK

3. THE ENERGY SWORD DOESNT LOOK BAD. NO YOUR RIGHT ITS NOT GLOWING, BUT I WONDER IF HAVE A HUGE GLOWING THING RIGHT INFRONT OF YOU MIGHT MAKE IT HARD TO SEE PAST THAT AND TO THE ACTION, IT MIGHT BE A NUISSANCE.

ANY WAY THAT WAS JUST THE PRESS CONFERENCE, E3 DOESNT ACTUALLY EVEN START UNTIL TODAY YOU TARD. JUST WAIT TILL THURSDAY NOON, WHEN PETE PARSONS FROM BUNGIE DOES HIS PRESENTATION, THEN WE CAN SAY IT WAS GOOD OR BAD. PATIENCE GRASSHOPPER

  • 05.12.2004 8:19 AM PDT
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and if you want a real real real boring presentation just watch the gamecube or sony press conference, they were, lame , and i love my playstation 2 as well as my xbox. but man the sony presentation was like sitting through history class

  • 05.12.2004 8:21 AM PDT
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I am sure that bungie know exactly what they are doing, I enjoyed pathways and marathon for gods sake. But, leveling abuse at other highly respected companies and their highly anticipated products is not doing you any good. Half-Life2, Doom3, and STALKER are very likely to be truely stupendous games that keep pc gamers happy while they wait for the inevitable Halo2 port. If its not ported, thats what emulators are for.

On your subject, multiplayer simply cannot cope with the same level of detail as the single player allows. It is not possible, there are more variables and possible actions. These are things that can be controlled and limited in a singleplayer experience to allow better graphics. You cant control them in a multiplayer environment. The IGN source even reported slowdown in one map area, and you want more details?!?!?!? Bungie are no doubt taking the ageing X-box engine to its limits, I suspect that adding additional sword effects would need the removal of other effects elsewhere. Personally I play halo for its stunning gameplay, the graphics are great of course, but I can get them in a slew of second rate games anywhere. Its the story and gameplay that make Halo a great game (something Bungie have been doing right since Marathon), and graphically I can't believe its still on the X-box.

Homing rockets are probably going to be countered by having less rocket launchers on maps, something I disliked in Halo1. If only 1 rocketlauncher can be present instead of the usual 3-6 in a Halo1 map, I would be much happier. Inter-player combat is about guns, grenades and CQA, not rocketlaunchers. Personally playing the PC version, I would happily see the removal of the fuel rod gun for its very spam happy nature.

The elite does not move like a spartan, or anything human for that matter. Its legs are completely different. The problem you are having is that the movement it has looks natural for its body type. Good animations are not noticible, crazy "great anims" eventually detract from the game and get in the way once the initial "OMG he spun the gun 7 times before he holstered it" has worn off.

Halo 2 is going to be great, it is going to try my patience as I force myself not to submit to an emulated version until it hits PC. We've been with bungie for years, for good reason, they won't let us down "no pressure Bungie". They have consistently made good choices (hi Microsoft) and great games, they have an enviable record. No offense, you have never made a game, you and me simply play them, guess who I'm going to trust. 'nuff said - Tink

[Edited on 5/12/2004 8:32:48 AM]

  • 05.12.2004 8:29 AM PDT
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please don't capslock, it gives many (including myself) headaches if overused...

  • 05.12.2004 8:31 AM PDT
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Eagle 117 and Orange Dragon those were the most logical explanations yet MAD PROPS to bungie. And we all have to remeber the game is not done there is still a good 4 months of production in wich they will fix some of the little bugs that are still there.
As far as the rocket lancher it is balanced and you know it because it only locks on to vechicles. Lets have a little faith in bungie as a great gamedeveloper and let them do there frickin jobs!!

  • 05.12.2004 8:57 AM PDT
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I was very pleased overall with the demo. I don't really want the plasma sword in multiplayer though, seems a little awkward. I guess I can just turn it off though when I play the game. Oh and I was a little disappointed in the way it looked, I expected more of a glowing plasma like it looked in Halo 1, but now it looks almost like the texture for the Covenant shield barrier thing with electricity on it. That's just a small thing though. Overall I am extremely pleased by the demo and can't wait for the game to be released.

  • 05.12.2004 10:10 AM PDT
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where there is something there is critisizim. an apple for example picked off of a tree someone is going to say there is something wrong with the appple. but that someone is part of a select few and the apple is not made for the select few but made for the majority. now put H2 in place of the apple or the energy sword. you see that megalith is part of the select few who find the small flaws of the apple. I like most people see a nice round edible apple.

  • 05.12.2004 6:46 PM PDT
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What's this madness I am seeing? Someone recommending tweaking, and useable changes which will benifit the game and not take two years or 100 centuries of computer advancement to create, amazing.
Actually, I disagree with most of the changes except for the reloading of the Battle Rifle.

  • 05.12.2004 7:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: Megalith
It's just my opinion, but the 2004 presentation of HALO 2 was a disaster. However, it isn't your fault, Bungie. It's only logical to show multiplayer since you did show what was to be expected in Campaign mode in last year's phenomenal display at E3. But didn't you notice how the crowd hesitated before clapping at the end of the showing? That's right. People were dissapointed. You see, there was actually nothing shown. Where is sprinting? Where is the new HUD that Frankie was talking about? Where is the ATV? Come on now. Unfortunately, there were also glaring problems that I could not ignore.

1. The reload animation for the Battle Rifle is extremely ugly. What happened to the original reload animation showcased in the E3 2003 demo. It was far superior. Also, seeing MC hold the Battle Rifle in his hand makes me want to puke. I believe it is due to the bump-mapping affecting the sense of depth, but his arm basically looks like a stiff ass log while holding it. He is simply holding it wrong, and would never hold the weapon that way unless it was very close to his body. The arm should be angled, and you should only see part of his wrist and his hand, like the E3 2003 demo.

2. Homing rockets are stupid. Please take them out immediately. What I recommend is taking away the homing capability for the SPNKr, and granting the function solely to the Warthog-mounted Rocket Launcher or Stationary RL. This balances it out some more, so we don't have every moron on Earth abusing the function and shooting off rockets without any skill required. Believe me, keeping a reticle on a target does not require any skill. See, there is a certain satisfaction with having to judge exactly how far and when to shoot a rocket to blow your opponent sky-high in the original, and I hope a similar expertise is required in the sequel.

3. Plasma Sword looks horrible. Sorry, this is the truth. Can anyone please tell me what happened to the effects from the E3 2003 demo? The swords look absolutely fantastic in that presentation, with the glowing plasma effect, making them very alive. In HALO 2 MP, they look like a piece of crap you would buy from Toys 'R Us. They just look flat and uninspired. Also, why would the PS be ignited on the ground? Can we get some sense in here? When you pick it up from the ground, it should just be the handle, and when you do, it should ignite, just like they do in the 2003 demo.

That's all.
dude they have not even gotten to the good stuff yet. i would expect much more. =)

  • 05.12.2004 7:21 PM PDT
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Those who go ranting upon that HALO 2 animations are bad blahblahblahblahblah..... take you ridillin and wait till it comes out

  • 05.12.2004 7:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: John the 117th
Those who go ranting upon that HALO 2 animations are bad blahblahblahblahblah..... take you ridillin and wait till it comes out


Impressive, in English next time please?

  • 05.12.2004 7:27 PM PDT

R.I.P Steve Irwin...you will be missed

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Join Date - 4/19/2004

im to lazy to read everyones posts so here is mine. i agree with almost everything megalith put in the first post. and the way he was holding the rocket launcher looked weird to. I know this isn't the final version but i hope this stuff isn't in it, but still if it was it wont ruin the game

  • 05.12.2004 7:28 PM PDT

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