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  • Subject: Depth in Halo Universe is Unmatched
Subject: Depth in Halo Universe is Unmatched

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Placid Platypus
Posted by: anton1792
Could you briefly outline one or two examples of this?

Quickest example I can think of is Marathon: Infinity itself. The Security Officer begins the game at it's end, but then is thrown through the universe's timeline, reliving past experiences, altering them to generate the desired outcome, and constantly changing allegiances and his own past to do so. Even then, that is an incredibly dumbed down description of what happens. The sheer bulk of Infinity is driven by a very meta-physical story that requires attentive reading of the terminals and knowledge of the whole series to understand.

Thanks.

I do truthfully doubt that Halo has anything as complex as that. The effects of the Slipspace crystal found under castle base is about as close as one comes to altering fate in the Halo Universe. Unfortunately it is never explored in depth.

  • 07.25.2011 5:56 PM PDT

Posted by: Duardo
Not really. Your mom is over quite enough to make my fears mute.
Posted by: colbyrules8
Posted by: Duardo
Being alone.
You're a mod, you should be used to that.


Posted by: kkrotz

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
*cough* Star Wars is an equal match in terms of depth *cough*


What you say is partially true , however I feel that while the Star Wars Universe provides an amazing amount of depth , it falls short when it comes to the excitement and intrigue of content (in my opinion ) . This whole thread is based entirely on opinions so there is no way to exactly say which is deeper . I respect your opinion as you should mine .
Have you played Kotor? If not, go play it and come back and repeat that incoherent retard rant.

  • 07.25.2011 5:57 PM PDT


Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: hotshot revan II
Ad Hominem

I'm sorry everybody I just have to jump in here, it'll only take a second...

Ad hominem is not necessarily a personaly attack during a debate, it's if he's trying to make a connection between you being a stupid fanboy and your ill-conceived arguments and stating that those arguments you've made are illegitimized by your fanboyitude. Which doesn't seem, to me at least, like what he's doing.

As well, ad hominem is not necessarily an illegitimate means of argumentation. If he were trying to make the claim that you are a pompous, blind and stubborn fanboy and therefore your arguments on the matter are biased and cannot be taken seriously, that would be valid.

Thanks everyone for taking a time out here for a bit of education. Just your friendly neighbourhood dahuterschuter with a little lesson in debating. Please resume.


To me it was.

Your points are correct but he didn't only called me a fanboy,but his reasons were "who really doesn't read other's posts or really think about them.", it indirectly referred to my arguments.

The definition of ad homimen is "argument against the man not the point" instead of giving an answer at my original question,he starts to talk about other things and then insults me and my arguments > indirectly.

If that doesn't sounds like ad hominem to you then fine.

BTW are you agreeing with that little dumbass that i'm a fanboy?By saying :

between you being a stupid fanboy and your ill-conceived arguments and stating that those arguments you've made are illegitimized by your fanboyitude.

If it isn't then sorry but make you point clear.

If you do then i have to say this:

So if i start to defend Halo against retarded posts makes me a fanboy?I can reverse the situation and call you haters,but you will probably respond by saying that you are a Halo fan,nice.

But i'm not a rabid Halo fanboy.
A rabid fan would think the story is perfect,original,on flaws,...and so on.Which i clearly don't think or do i?

I'm still waiting for my original question to several of you,the lack of valid answers is clear to me that they didn't put any thought in their post before writing,or among other reasons...



You haven't given us any reason not to think you aren't a fanboy. I mean hell it seems like more then half of people....Hell all of the people still participating in this thread are against you.

That HAS to mean something. I mean you can call them blind Starwars, Trek, Ect. Fanboys but in all honesty it seems like they've been all in agreement.

  • 07.25.2011 6:02 PM PDT

Personally I would say a more grounded universe. Specifically one that I can relate to being close enough to real that the suspension of disbelief is solid.

For example I am a fan of Star Wars movies but the universe is just unrealistic with Jedi powers etc.

So for me in an FPS game I prefer that 'realism' so to speak that Halo brings.

Small things like time dialation rather than time travel, slipspace is unstable in our technology but covie/forerunner is advanced enough to be precise etc.

I find that technology evolution of the universe between the species interesting.

  • 07.25.2011 6:06 PM PDT


Posted by: Three00Jews
@ hotshot revan II
Sci-fi and fantasy are incredibly similar, and Halo has NOTHING on Tolkien.

Halo's got a decent story, but it's not as deep as it should be.

Don't get me wrong, I -blam!- love Halo, but there are better sci-fi universes out there. Star Wars has infinitely more depth than Halo. Marathon and Halo are only connected in that they were developed by the same company, so Halo has 10 years on it. Star Wars has 30. That's 20 more years of time to add and expand to the Universe.

Also, the stuff Halo does with this 3 factions stuff which you seem to just gobble up isn't ONLY in Halo. Mass Effect has done it as well. Various TV series like Star Trek/Gate do it.

Halo isn't a unique, super deep story. It's a great one with potential to expand, but it isn't the best gosh durn story ever.

Also, you're CLEARLY a fanboy who really doesn't read other's posts or really think about them.

And another thing. When you use commas,you put a space in between the commas. Also, if you use the letter i it should be capitalized,trust me man,but go ahead,i'm listening...


If you're talking thematically here, yeah Tolkein's got some serious -blam!- going on there. Until the ending when he stepped on his own themes (which Peter Jackson thankfully rectified).

But Halo's deeper then you give it credit for. Just about half of it is a sci-fi interpretation of biblical events and has been seen as a Christain allegory several times. There are entire pages dedicated to exploring and interpreting these allegorical themes.

But Halo can be said to analyze human nature and asks imposing questions on morality, death, cultural, faith, ethics and (now anyways) fate and destiny. It criticizes human nature but shows humanity eventually overcoming its flaws to face down an impossible enemy.

The Great Journey can be interpreted as the ultimate step in cultural, biological, moral and spiritual evolution. The Covenant represent those who would take the faiths of billions, twist it, mutate it, and use this ultimate power to their own ends. And for as hard as they try, these immature types would never (and never do) achieve their goals.

Humanity itself in Halo are the young, yet determined types. They are blissgully ignorant of the dark ways of the universe, yet are the only ones with the maturity to save it. They do not actively seek the Great Journey, despite the powers given to those who achieve it. And despite their fledgling existance in space they and only one other recognize the dangers of infinite power.

Humanity is portrayed as the race that overcomes their weaknesses. This is directly alluded too in Origins II. Humanity can achieve what the Forerunners did and more, given time.

The Human Covenant war itself can be seen as a metaphor for that

See if you can connect these negative traits with a Covenant race.

Cowardice, Hatred, Submissiveness, deceptiveness, Selfishnes, and the odd traits, brotherhood/loyalty.

Grunts, Brutes, Drones, Prophets, Jackals, and Hunters.

All of them except the Drones and Hunters should be obviously connected. But Drones are given such a trait because look at their nature: they are completely devoid of individuality and shamelessly throw away their lives for a cause, much like how the distopian world of 1984 portrayed humanity. I remember a short story in Evolutions portraying a Drone actually having its legs broken only so as to draw out the Spartans.

Self mutilation is a must in Drone society, and are completely submissive to their rulers

The last trait applies to the Hunters and the Elites. Of all the races of the Covenant, only the Elites and Hunters saw the truth of the Covenant. The Grunts who suceeded did so only out of fear, not true comradere.

But the Elites most of all saw the H/C war for what it was, in the end (as the Return shows us) it was wrong, and the Covenant's lies would have everyone die for the twisted dreams of a few powerful old men in chairs. Only the Hunters and Elites saw this, with the Hunters joining as two brothers forged in battle might.

But as some Hunters broke away, others stayed. They stayed possibly in hopes that the clear superior force, the Covenant, would continue to support them with the slipspace lanes and supplies they needed.

They forgot the brotherhood forged with the Elites and turned to monetary gain, becoming no better then the Jackals they once stepped on.

All in all, Humanity, over the course of the war, proved itself worthy of upholding the ultimate responsibility: The Mantle, though they know it not. This is symbolized in the defeating of the cowardice, hatred, submissiveness, deceptiveness, and selfishness that had driven humanity to destroy itself for millenia.

It can be called an optimistic outlook on humanity's future, that though we toil in war now, we can overcome our most bitter instincts.

And the embodyment of humanity, John 117, is now on his way to unlocking even more secrets and possibly becoming something even greater.

In this regard, I often look at John as being similar to David Poole from 2001: mankind incarnate, lost in space, but ultimately becoming more then a man, in the end.

  • 07.25.2011 6:18 PM PDT

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Obvious, much?

  • 07.25.2011 6:22 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Sorry to burst your bubble Roberto but the UNSC still maintains an iron grip on the colonies spurring increased rebel activities. Humanity is once again imitating the Carver findings. The entire truth about the Forerunner and Flood was classified Top Secret and no one knows that John even exists. The UNSC has learned nothing. What a waste.

Also, the Elites did not turn away from the Covenant because of the lies about the Great Journey. They did not even turn away from the Covenant in the sense of making a conscious choice to do so. The choice was not theirs so therefore they can receive no praise or condemnation for it. The Prophets ordered the Brutes to exterminate them and the Elites, already pissed of at getting thrown out of the Guard, fought back. After this, the discovery of Halo's true purpose was revealed, which would galvanise them yes, but they cannot receive appraisal for splitting from the Covenant from "seeing the truth". The split was already made before that.

Going by your model, if they in fact do not represent our hubris and selfishness (Which underlies discrimination and bigoted patriotism), then I don't know what will.

  • 07.25.2011 6:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: kkrotz

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
*cough* Star Wars is an equal match in terms of depth *cough*


What you say is partially true , however I feel that while the Star Wars Universe provides an amazing amount of depth , it falls short when it comes to the excitement and intrigue of content (in my opinion ) . This whole thread is based entirely on opinions so there is no way to exactly say which is deeper . I respect your opinion as you should mine .


Um, no. I don't think I will respect your opinion since you don't back it up. Saying "It's my opinion" only goes so far. Do explain why Star Wars can't come up with good content because that is just not true.


I don't understand why you would disapprove of my opinions , there is no reason whatsoever why we cannot agree to disagree . I'm not trying to start a controversial thread , and although I admire your constructive criticism , I sincerely ask you to express your opinion on the subject matter , but not in a way that intends to bring other's opinions down .

  • 07.26.2011 1:11 AM PDT

Who's awesome? ^ this guy.

Guys, halo is a story depth game. Starwars has had movies though, and they've milked the -blam!- out of it. If halo is milked as much of starwars, then maybe you can consider it just as story depth, OKAY?

  • 07.26.2011 1:42 AM PDT

I love halo, but Star Wars has much more depth in my opinion.

  • 07.26.2011 3:27 AM PDT

I think that in terms of Halo being a game, it has a lot of depth. The Star Wars games already had an established Universe, but Halo has created the story from the games (as well as novels after).

I think it works on more than one level; it has the straight-forward "shoot this", "blow that up", but also quite an in-depth story for those who want to know about it. Although Star Wars and Mass Effect games have more depth, Halo still has a lot more background than 90% of shooters out there.

Just my thoughts!

  • 07.26.2011 3:58 AM PDT

I've always liked the depth that Dune had. I had to watch that thing several times to figure out what was going on.

  • 07.26.2011 4:18 AM PDT

Imo.. Star wars has far more nore depth but half of that depth is uninteresting. Honestly I stopped caring about Star Wars after that dumb alien invasion thing. Halo is more interesting and the only book that wasnt a "late night read" for me was Contact Harvest. Halo is just a baby but a baby with potential.

  • 07.26.2011 4:44 AM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Halo certainly has the potential to have an extremely deep Universe. Even if the Universe of Halo may not be as profound as Star Wars, I find the Universe of Halo far more intriguing, and at least at this point, more cohesive.

  • 07.26.2011 5:10 AM PDT


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Halo certainly has the potential to have an extremely deep Universe. Even if the Universe of Halo may not be as profound as Star Wars, I find the Universe of Halo far more intriguing, and at least at this point, more cohesive.

Exactly I am waiting to see whether they milk Halo to the point of Star Wars. I am optimistic on Karen Traviss's new novel but I hope the post halo 3 world doesn't go the same way as the post Return of the Jedi's.

  • 07.26.2011 5:15 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Devils Preists

Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: hotshot revan II
Ad Hominem

I'm sorry everybody I just have to jump in here, it'll only take a second...

Ad hominem is not necessarily a personaly attack during a debate, it's if he's trying to make a connection between you being a stupid fanboy and your ill-conceived arguments and stating that those arguments you've made are illegitimized by your fanboyitude. Which doesn't seem, to me at least, like what he's doing.

As well, ad hominem is not necessarily an illegitimate means of argumentation. If he were trying to make the claim that you are a pompous, blind and stubborn fanboy and therefore your arguments on the matter are biased and cannot be taken seriously, that would be valid.

Thanks everyone for taking a time out here for a bit of education. Just your friendly neighbourhood dahuterschuter with a little lesson in debating. Please resume.


To me it was.

Your points are correct but he didn't only called me a fanboy,but his reasons were "who really doesn't read other's posts or really think about them.", it indirectly referred to my arguments.

The definition of ad homimen is "argument against the man not the point" instead of giving an answer at my original question,he starts to talk about other things and then insults me and my arguments > indirectly.

If that doesn't sounds like ad hominem to you then fine.

BTW are you agreeing with that little dumbass that i'm a fanboy?By saying :

between you being a stupid fanboy and your ill-conceived arguments and stating that those arguments you've made are illegitimized by your fanboyitude.

If it isn't then sorry but make you point clear.

If you do then i have to say this:

So if i start to defend Halo against retarded posts makes me a fanboy?I can reverse the situation and call you haters,but you will probably respond by saying that you are a Halo fan,nice.

But i'm not a rabid Halo fanboy.
A rabid fan would think the story is perfect,original,on flaws,...and so on.Which i clearly don't think or do i?

I'm still waiting for my original question to several of you,the lack of valid answers is clear to me that they didn't put any thought in their post before writing,or among other reasons...



You haven't given us any reason not to think you aren't a fanboy. I mean hell it seems like more then half of people....Hell all of the people still participating in this thread are against you.

That HAS to mean something. I mean you can call them blind Starwars, Trek, Ect. Fanboys but in all honesty it seems like they've been all in agreement.



Appeal to popularity

-I did,please read better unless you ingored half my post.

-Do it doesn't.Consider this:

On Factpile most of the people are against Halo,yet the Forerunners got the award against the GE,it doesn't means a -blam!- it depends on who you are debating with,in this case one of those who is fighting me here has still failed to respond any of my original question,puts his fingers in his ears and calls me a fanboy.

  • 07.26.2011 6:26 AM PDT

"Once Bungie takes over the world, The Marty Army will take over Bungie and then we'll really have some fun."
-Marty O'Donnell

"Condemnant quod non intellegunt."

Make Bungie.net More Enjoyable: Read & Follow

Drawing from my experience, I absolutely agree with the OP.

  • 07.26.2011 7:45 AM PDT

"Alright sweethearts you heard the man and you know the drill, -blam!-s and elbows!"

Halo's story was interesting but nothing breathtaking or original. An older RPG game called Ringworld used the whole Halo concept much earlier (and even this game used a book from the 1970s for its setting and many of its ideas) not to mention MC fits the whole cliche super soldier mold perfectly. The whole humans vs aliens thing isn't anything new though the the flood made it interesting. The story got better with Halo 2 but Halo 3 failed to answer many of the questions that Halo 2 started but thankfully the books saved it.

It all went to hell when Bungie rewrote the canon just for Reach which contradicted half the established canon and replaced it with one that made very little sense. Star Wars may have been around for longer but at least it didn't retcon most of its canon in one swoop and everything flows together nicely, for the most part(assuming you have the time and patience to sift through all that content).

I personally prefer Mass effect and Gears of war's universe better anyways. Gears may not be as deep but I find the characters more interesting and better developed plus it really emphasizes the whole "war is hell" concept. The story is simpler but makes fewer canon mistakes and Epic seems to care about keeping their story straight(they are even bringing characters from the books into Gears 3).
Mass Effect is pretty self explanatory(most of the universe is explained in the game, the books just add extra content that helps explain what happens in between games).
Just my opinion though.

  • 07.26.2011 8:00 AM PDT

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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
*cough* Star Wars is an equal match in terms of depth *cough*


It's not equal in any sense of the word The Star Wars universe outstrips the Halo universe (in terms of depth) completely and totally.

  • 07.26.2011 8:01 AM PDT

Pssst! Nobody tell OP about the 40k universe, and the triple-digit number of long novels it has.

  • 07.26.2011 8:28 AM PDT


Posted by: Maimum FEAR

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
*cough* Star Wars is an equal match in terms of depth *cough*


It's not equal in any sense of the word The Star Wars universe outstrips the Halo universe (in terms of depth) completely and totally.

Its just that the 80% of the depth is uninteresting unless your a star wars nut. Lately they have been delving into the Old Republic a little bit with the Darth Bane duelogy, Kotor game (not so recent) and the new MMO. (maybe some others i forgot). But I find that section of star wars lore very intriguing.

[Edited on 07.26.2011 10:24 AM PDT]

  • 07.26.2011 10:24 AM PDT

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Posted by: Uncarinelf

Posted by: Maimum FEAR

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
*cough* Star Wars is an equal match in terms of depth *cough*


It's not equal in any sense of the word The Star Wars universe outstrips the Halo universe (in terms of depth) completely and totally.

Its just that the 80% of the depth is uninteresting unless your a star wars nut. Lately they have been delving into the Old Republic a little bit with the Darth Bane duelogy, Kotor game (not so recent) and the new MMO. (maybe some others i forgot). But I find that section of star wars lore very intriguing.

And yet everything in the Halo universe is more interesting to everybody, regardless of whether they are fans of the series?

Stop kidding yourself.

  • 07.26.2011 10:27 AM PDT


Posted by: Maimum FEAR

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
*cough* Star Wars is an equal match in terms of depth *cough*[/quote]

It's not equal in any sense of the word The Star Wars universe outstrips the Halo universe (in terms of depth) completely and totally.[/quote]
Its just that the 80% of the depth is uninteresting unless your a star wars nut. Lately they have been delving into the Old Republic a little bit with the Darth Bane duelogy, Kotor game (not so recent) and the new MMO. (maybe some others i forgot). But I find that section of star wars lore very intriguing.

And yet everything in the Halo universe is more interesting to everybody, regardless of whether they are fans of the series?

Stop kidding yourself.

Its not and it takes loving the game to get into and i admit to being a "Halo nut" but if you get into it I believe it is/will be fulfilling. Even if all of the standard plot points have been stolen ( Humanity fights a losing battle against aliens, battle gets toupher when new more terrible enemies show up and the fact that precursors created things in there image).

[Edited on 07.26.2011 10:32 AM PDT]

  • 07.26.2011 10:31 AM PDT
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You'll never find... blom blom blom blom... a hairline like mine...

I think the Tolkien Universe has a little bit more depth. I mean that guy wrote languages for his universe!

  • 07.26.2011 1:17 PM PDT


Posted by: Uncarinelf
Imo.. Star wars has far more nore depth but half of that depth is uninteresting. Honestly I stopped caring about Star Wars after that dumb alien invasion thing. Halo is more interesting and the only book that wasnt a "late night read" for me was Contact Harvest. Halo is just a baby but a baby with potential.


Meh, the stuff post-episode 6 seems blah in general to me.

Movie time to stuff earlier is more interesting.

  • 07.26.2011 1:25 PM PDT