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Subject: Spartan IIs vs Spartan IIIs. Which class is better?

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Spartan-IIs had better augmentations, better training, and better armor. Spartan-IIIs were developed as cheap fire and forget missiles to cause as much damage as possible.

  • 07.26.2011 1:37 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: privet caboose
>Spartan II's and III's did NOT receive the same augments. The III's received theirs through chemical drugs, while the II's received theirs surgically.

And how does this translate to any measurable difference? Can you explain how one is superior/inferior to the other?


No, I can't.

All I can say is that they're different. Different methods CAN give different results. From what we saw, Kelly wiped the floor with Holly. That is the only real information we have to go on in terms of "II's vs III's." That, and Kurt/Blue Teams notes that Gamma is acting twitchy with elevated pulses while Blue Team is calm.

We can also look at Reach for an example of Spartan III's not being as "good" as the II's but that's a different story. You could just say it's the personalities of the III's in the game that causes the problems, but remember, the III's in Noble are supposed to be "the best of the best."

  • 07.26.2011 1:38 PM PDT

If I remember right, it was experience Kelly used to beat holly, not "Augmentation results are better"

Still, I've never seen anything that implied S3 augmentation results were different from S2 augmentations (bar the one the S2's got and the 3's didn't, and the washout rate.)

[Edited on 07.26.2011 1:43 PM PDT]

  • 07.26.2011 1:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
If I remember right, it was experience Kelly used to beat holly, not "Augmentation results are better"

Still, I've never seen anything that implied S3 augmentation results were different from S2 augmentations (bar the one the S2's got and the 3's didn't, and the washout rate.)


It is the fact SIIIs got injections, they didn't get "direct augmentation". not to mention they didn't get the thyroid injection.

The washout rate is now non-exsistant since we know from the journal and legends non of them died.

  • 07.26.2011 1:45 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: privet caboose
All I can say is that they're different. Different methods CAN give different results. From what we saw, Kelly wiped the floor with Holly. That is the only real information we have to go on in terms of "II's vs III's."

Of course she would deck Holly, she is the fastest Human alive. You are taking the traits of an individual who is clearly, without a doubt, the best at hand-to-hand with those kinds of reflexes and using that as a platform to judge everything else. Compositional fallacy.

Posted by: privet caboose
That, and Kurt/Blue Teams notes that Gamma is acting twitchy with elevated pulses while Blue Team is calm.

Gamma's first lethal combat scenario. The IIs had 20 odd years of experience of this. If we could show that the IIs were not like that on their first mission then yes, the IIIs may be intrinsically less reserved.

But fine, the IIs are from a stricter gene pool and have the thyroid implant, which gives them the only intrinsic edge over the IIs I think.

  • 07.26.2011 2:04 PM PDT

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Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: privet caboose
All I can say is that they're different. Different methods CAN give different results. From what we saw, Kelly wiped the floor with Holly. That is the only real information we have to go on in terms of "II's vs III's."

Of course she would deck Holly, she is the fastest Human alive. You are taking the traits of an individual who is clearly, without a doubt, the best at hand-to-hand with those kinds of reflexes and using that as a platform to judge everything else. Compositional fallacy.


This is still a Spartan 2 vs Spartan 3 topic though, so, being the BEST at something can be attributed to superior genes, leading up to natural ability. In Kelly's case, being very fast. And it doesn't really matter WHEN they fight either...those years of extra experience will still be there. Champion races horses vs mutts...take your pick.

  • 07.26.2011 2:43 PM PDT

*reminisces when the Bungie/Halo community wasn't made up of CoD kids*
*sighs*
*activates time-machine and sets the clock back to Nov. 9, 2004*
glory days here I come..
*vanishes*

Spartan IIs.
Better armor.
More individually skilled.
Bigger, possibly physically stronger and more intimidating.
But much fewer in numbers.

Spartan IIIs.
Inferior armor.
Less individualy skilled but better tactics, and more team oriented.
Smaller and stealthier.

I can't decide.
Someone correct me if I am wrong about any point I made.

  • 07.26.2011 3:08 PM PDT

I am alpha, i am omega.

I am the last of the primes.


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: privet caboose
All I can say is that they're different. Different methods CAN give different results. From what we saw, Kelly wiped the floor with Holly. That is the only real information we have to go on in terms of "II's vs III's."

Of course she would deck Holly, she is the fastest Human alive. You are taking the traits of an individual who is clearly, without a doubt, the best at hand-to-hand with those kinds of reflexes and using that as a platform to judge everything else. Compositional fallacy.

Posted by: privet caboose
That, and Kurt/Blue Teams notes that Gamma is acting twitchy with elevated pulses while Blue Team is calm.

Gamma's first lethal combat scenario. The IIs had 20 odd years of experience of this. If we could show that the IIs were not like that on their first mission then yes, the IIIs may be intrinsically less reserved.

But fine, the IIs are from a stricter gene pool and have the thyroid implant, which gives them the only intrinsic edge over the IIs I think.



I think a spartan 3 the same age as a spartan 2 with the same battle exprince, in the same armour would be at least equal.


[Edited on 07.26.2011 3:14 PM PDT]

  • 07.26.2011 3:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

thyroid was height and the SIIIs were fighting young as 6-10 depending on how old they were to start with.

  • 07.26.2011 3:15 PM PDT

I am alpha, i am omega.

I am the last of the primes.


Posted by: grey101
thyroid was height and the SIIIs were fighting young as 6-10 depending on how old they were to start with.

So it makes them 2 inches taller?

  • 07.26.2011 3:30 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Posted by: privet caboose

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: privet caboose
>Spartan II's and III's did NOT receive the same augments. The III's received theirs through chemical drugs, while the II's received theirs surgically.

And how does this translate to any measurable difference? Can you explain how one is superior/inferior to the other?


No, I can't.

All I can say is that they're different. Different methods CAN give different results. From what we saw, Kelly wiped the floor with Holly. That is the only real information we have to go on in terms of "II's vs III's." That, and Kurt/Blue Teams notes that Gamma is acting twitchy with elevated pulses while Blue Team is calm.

We can also look at Reach for an example of Spartan III's not being as "good" as the II's but that's a different story. You could just say it's the personalities of the III's in the game that causes the problems, but remember, the III's in Noble are supposed to be "the best of the best."

Kelly was wearing MJOLNIR whereas Holly may as well been unarmored though.

  • 07.26.2011 3:35 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Let us not forget that Kurt trained the III's to operate as a team. They don't preform as well alone as they do in a team. Infact, Alpha Company fell apart due to lack of team cohesion. This was never a problem with the II's.

Don't forget that Kurt had to rush the training of the III's to fit it into a tighter schedule. Each III company only had 5 years of training, while the II's had 8 years.

  • 07.26.2011 3:35 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: ferrrari

Posted by: grey101
thyroid was height and the SIIIs were fighting young as 6-10 depending on how old they were to start with.

So it makes them 2 inches taller?


they would be far smaller than a mere two inches, not to mention the thyroid was the same aug for the dense bones.

  • 07.26.2011 3:35 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Posted by: privet caboose
Let us not forget that Kurt trained the III's to operate as a team. They don't preform as well alone as they do in a team. Infact, Alpha Company fell apart due to lack of team cohesion. This was never a problem with the II's.

Don't forget that Kurt had to rush the training of the III's to fit it into a tighter schedule. Each III company only had 5 years of training, while the II's had 8 years.

Although, Kurt also said that he trained the IIIs harder than he was trained. I don't think it's this simple to quantify experience and training, as it's all in vague comparisons.

  • 07.26.2011 3:40 PM PDT

DIE MORE LIVE LESS

the s-3's s-2's where for suicide missions and had lower class armor and focused on teamwork

  • 07.26.2011 4:01 PM PDT

I

[Edited on 07.26.2011 6:52 PM PDT]

  • 07.26.2011 6:34 PM PDT

The Spartan III program was made to correct many of the problems with the Spartan II program, It boasted supposedly "superior training" though it cut costs from the Spartan II program to create more soldiers. In a way the spartan III program took the stand of Quantity over quality, not to belittle the still-amazing combat prowess of the spartan III's. The spartan III program created vastly more supersoldiers than the Spartan II program, and fixed many of the problems like the mortality rate of spartans in training. And it seems their equipment was cheaper in both senses of the word than that of the Spartan-II's. "The SPARTAN-IIIs were designed to be better trained, cheaper, and expendable."-http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Spartan_III

  • 07.26.2011 6:47 PM PDT
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Mac777 got it. The S-III program was ment to be "cheaper" than the S-II. There wasn't from what I can remember any difference in the S-II and S-III alfa and beta augmentation process other than the fact that there wasn't any "washouts". All this about surgical and chimical or injections is wrong the process in how they administered the chemicals was the same and so was the chemicals. The gamma company however had two extras that let them use their "primitive" part of the brain the part that takes over in times of stress. the other chemical let them have the ability to think rationaly while that part took over and also kept them from having a detieroration in brain functionality which would have ocurred over time. As for training the S-III's where infact more team based but still barely. This is because the S-III training was on a smaller time frame while the S-II's wheren't exactly rushed into the war. But thats really my speculation. With more time and MJOLNIR type armor I would say that the S-III's could be as good as the S-II's and gamma company even better.

[Edited on 07.27.2011 12:43 PM PDT]

  • 07.26.2011 8:18 PM PDT

Consider the following:
1. The S-IIs were handpicked at the age of 6 by Dr. Halsey for their very specific genetic traits that would optimize their combat capabilities. The S-IIIs were picked mostly at different ages, because they were kids from fallen colonies whose parents and/or loved ones were killed by the Covenant, therefore making them likely to hold a grudge against the Covenant.
2. Because the S-IIs were relatively few in number, they could receive more specialized training and optimize teamwork. The S-IIIs were specifically chosen to be trained, sent on missions, and killed in combat.
3. As for each group's biological augmentations, they were on about the same level, except for the chemical introduced into S-IIIs, which made their aggression levels skyrocket and have to be controlled by other drugs.

With all of those points in mind, I'd have to say that the S-IIs were better, but seeing as how this topic has come up about a hundred times in the past, I hardly think it matters.

  • 07.26.2011 8:57 PM PDT

Put it this way. I'd rather have John, Kelly, Linda, or Fred watching my back than any of the S-III's.

  • 07.26.2011 9:55 PM PDT


Posted by: Nukem5150
Put it this way. I'd rather have John, Kelly, Linda, or Fred watching my back than any of the S-III's.

Seconded.

  • 07.26.2011 10:07 PM PDT

We believe that the universe is unbounded: this is not the same as infinite: the 2-D surface of a sphere, wrapped around a 3rd dimension, has a finite size, but has no end. If you start off in a given direction on the surface of a sphere, you could return to your start point without having to turn around -- you simply go all the way around. But wouldn't that mean the universe has an escape velocity like the earth?

Straight from the Book (parenthesized statements in bold are medical opinions of my own):

S-II Augmentations:
Occipital capillary reversal:

Marked visual perception increase. (Blood vessel flow increased in the retinal area causes increased visual capacity). Risk: 11% have retinal rejection and permanent blindness (Over-stimulation and overflow of retinal blood vessels can cause capillaric hemorrhaging and destroy the capacity of the eyes visual function).

Muscular enhancement injections:

Increases tissue density and decreases lactase recovery time (Most likely implemented via a sort of protein complex, protein being a key part of muscle development in reality and therefore a likely key part of the procedural drug). Risk: 5% of test subjects experience fatal cardiac volume increase (Cardiac = heart or to do with the heart muscle. The increase in tissue density could result in major heart volume growth and if untreated, this can be extensively fatal.)

Carbide ceramic ossification:

Advanced material grafting onto skeletal structures makes bones virtually unbreakable. (This I cannot be certain with an opinion as I cant exactly know when a material graft has ever at all been done, although necrosis could be a risk due to many variable factors, which can cause premature death of living tissue, so this probably would be reduced to at most 5% of bone mass being ossified). Risk: 3.8% Failure rate due to possible mutations and compromised matrix/marrow integrity [based on primate case studies] (As the subjects were pre-pubescent and at the age of major development, I assume puberty is the key factor in this probability vector. I can assume substantial bone growth could have major implications.)

Catalytical thyroid implant:

Human growth hormone catalyst boosts growth of skeletal and muscle tissues. (Thyroid implant? I'd assume its either medically added or pelleted, I haven't got extensive knowledge although the illustration on Halsey's journal assumes a pelleted approach. This would be an advantageous augmentation which would work nicely with the puberty process). Risk: 2% acquire elephantiasis. (Definite risk, as much as it coincides well with the pubertal process, if the implant failed, skin could thicken as well as underlying living tissue, oddly its most often commonly seen symptom is in fact the thickening of the -blam!-.) Not mentioned: Weakened -blam!- Drive.

(My personal favorite)
Superconducting fibrification of neural dendrites:

Significantly increases reflexes. (Ok, Superconduction, fibrillism, all points to electrical stimulation of the dendrites, possibly technologies way of shielded transduction of some sorts to electronical implants. The fact dendrites are mentioned makes me assume that correct use of bioelectric stimulation would lead to major heightenings in IQ and especially creativity, very useful in terms of strategy and tactics). Risk: 12% contract Parkinson's disease and Fletcher's syndrome (I don't have a clue on Fletcher's syndrome to be honest, so to make an honest opinion would be extensively stupid of me. Parkinsons is however to do with the mid-brain, and im going to assume this relates to the huge stimulation of the dendrites of the neurons in the substantia nigra, no racist pun intended >_>.

Final Mortality Rate: 56%
S-II Augmentations were potent, but much more powerful and expensive than S-III Augmentations, which were injected, some intravenously and usually non-lethal. Also cheaper. S-II

Project: CHRYSANTHEMUM Augmentations
Note: The names of the drugs are off Halo nation as ive lost my GoO copy, however these descriptions are purely from memory. This is the only thing ive gone online to seek, the S-II augmentations are all derived from Halseys journal and my personal interpretation.

8942-LQ99 (Carbide ceramic ossification catalyst drug):

DO not confuse this for the S-II CCO drug, as this is intravenous and not a direct grafting. Skeletal Structure is also virtually unbreakable, and like its counterpart, the effects of the drug only increases over time.

88005-MX77 (fibroid muscular protein complex drug):

Also not to be confused with the enhancement methods by S-IIs although this may be derived from the same substance complex, as both are injected intravenously. This increases density of the muscle tissue, but lacks the lactic recovery time. This allows lifting and stronger acrobatic expectations, however athletically does not have the same advantages.

88947-OP24 (retina inversion stabilizer drug):

Increase of color sharpness and something extra called night-vision, perfect for night missions, most likely related to the Occipital reversal used in Spartan Augmentations, although more refined (cause no kid wants bleeding eyes for a side-effect).

87556-UD61 (Colloidal neural disunification solution improvisation):

This is what I like to call the reflex and reaction drug, the one that greatly increases perception and reaction time by upwards of 250-300%, without a single exaggeration, possibly the counter to the lack of lactase recovery time.

If you are a picky bi- (jk), For Gamma Company
009762-OO (Neural-altering non-carcinogenic mutagen):

This is the biggie, the augmentation that completely alters the life of the Gamma-Company subjects. With the word mutagen you can probably guess it mutates something. In fact, it alters the brain, more specifically the part that deals with aggression and emotion, (aka the frontal lobe) according to my memory. Of course Kurt wanted these Spartans to survive, give them a chance. As a result, this drug causes EXTREME aggression to murderous levels. This means that the Spartans injected with this drug are subjected to a dependancy on the drugs below in order to keep performing to their best neurologically.

009927-DG (misolanzipine):

Olanzipine = anti-psychotic. Therefore its also used to counter the psychotic effects of drug 009762-OO. Like its counterpart 009127-PX, the permanence is non-existant and therefore must be reiinjected into the subject to prevent psychotic damage to the affected subject.

009127-PX (cyclodexione-4 or the bipolar integration drug):

This bipolarism allows the effects of drug 009762-OO to be balanced out, although as the budget is cheaper, the permanence of this drug is null and void, and therefore must be given time after time to prevent catastrophe to the S-III injected with 009762-OO.

S-III Augmentations: Some do similar jobs, but not to the same extent. They were made for expenditure and the fact they were expendible. What opinion you have is up to you, but the augmentations Ive listed can hopefully help someone formulate an opinion.

Love,
~B2

  • 07.26.2011 10:43 PM PDT

"Wake me...when you need me."

According the the canon, Spartan-II is a superior warrior. Better genes.

  • 07.26.2011 11:36 PM PDT

really its just come down to opinions no one is right or wrong but my questions is why not have both if i was oni or who ever was in charge i would get more S2 and S3 and i think in the book the flood captain keys put it best when he was talking to the O.D.S.T major about them

  • 07.27.2011 12:28 AM PDT

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