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  • Subject: What was wrong with the spartan program?
Subject: What was wrong with the spartan program?
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Maybe because i tend to see things from a larger picture or am not really emotionally (which obviously is a problem) what exactly is wrong with the spartan program?

now i see the problem with them being used against the innies as tools of oppression, but with that civil war tearing humanity apart it is still immoral?

I don't see anything wrong with them being used against the covenant; i see it as "them or us" without the spartans humanity would have gone extinct.

I do see the issue with the SIIIs being canon fodder, but other than that i fully support the spartan program.

  • 07.28.2011 1:42 PM PDT

Some people consider it immoral because it meant kidnapping 6 year old kids from their parents (imagine that happening to you). And it's not just the kids suffering, their parents as well when they think their children are dead, it's a horrible fealing when you out live you son/daughter (or so I'm told).

However, desperate times call the desperate measures right? I understand why Halsey and ONI did what they did.

  • 07.28.2011 1:49 PM PDT

Just like the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop, the world may never know...except Bungie.

Ethically, it's looked down upon. Kidnapping 6 year old kids from their homes and engineering them into super soldiers. A good percentage died during the augmentation. Not to mention, the SPARTAN Project began as a means to combat the Insurrectionists. A little overkill.

  • 07.28.2011 1:53 PM PDT

They think that what they did to them was overkill. I mean, were 6 year olds necessary? Could they of asked for volunteers from already decorated men and women in the military? Were the extent of the augmentations necessary? Couldn't they work with less? Were Spartans the only solution? This is about the SIIs. With the SIIIs then at the time it was necessary and was the "right" thing to do. Just with the Spartan IIs many could find it a bit much at the time.

Of course during the Human-Covenant war they were glad they did it however when they authorized it it was just dealing with the insurrection.

[Edited on 07.28.2011 2:08 PM PDT]

  • 07.28.2011 2:02 PM PDT


Posted by: Blitzkrieg460
Ethically, it's looked down upon. Kidnapping 6 year old kids from their homes and engineering them into super soldiers. A good percentage died during the augmentation. Not to mention, the SPARTAN Project began as a means to combat the Insurrectionists. A little overkill.


Actually, every single one that washed out(by dying) was placed in cryo-stasis with hopes of reviving them.

I'd say the spartans were the lesser evil, compared to the extreme actions the rebels were taking (Nuking a colony).

Overall IMO, it's not the best choice, but it was needed. Sometimes you just HAVE to do things you don't like.

  • 07.28.2011 2:05 PM PDT

From Cyro to Meta

Well kidnapping 6 year old children is a start. Also some of them died because of the augmentations and some were permanently deformed from it too.

  • 07.28.2011 2:09 PM PDT

Just like the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop, the world may never know...except Bungie.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Blitzkrieg460
Ethically, it's looked down upon. Kidnapping 6 year old kids from their homes and engineering them into super soldiers. A good percentage died during the augmentation. Not to mention, the SPARTAN Project began as a means to combat the Insurrectionists. A little overkill.


Actually, every single one that washed out(by dying) was placed in cryo-stasis with hopes of reviving them.

I'd say the spartans were the lesser evil, compared to the extreme actions the rebels were taking (Nuking a colony).

Overall IMO, it's not the best choice, but it was needed. Sometimes you just HAVE to do things you don't like.


Fair enough. There are the ones like Fhajad, as well. Crippled to the point of being confined to a wheel chair. As for the lesser of two evils, I agree with you on that. Sacrifice a few to save the majority. But to resort to kidnapping children is disturbing. And in the end, when the H-C War did start, they proved to be invaluable to the war effort.

  • 07.28.2011 2:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: monkyw1thagun
Well kidnapping 6 year old children is a start. Also some of them died because of the augmentations and some were permanently deformed from it too.


1. as if that doesn't happen now for s3x trade? atleast they actually had a purpose.

2. we now know that the deaths were faked to get black ops spartans.

  • 07.28.2011 2:12 PM PDT

From Cyro to Meta


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: monkyw1thagun
Well kidnapping 6 year old children is a start. Also some of them died because of the augmentations and some were permanently deformed from it too.


1. as if that doesn't happen now for s3x trade? atleast they actually had a purpose.

2. we now know that the deaths were faked to get black ops spartans.

Please dont tell me you are comparing a game with a made up storyline to real life.

  • 07.28.2011 3:31 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Kidnapping children to turn them into killing machines is a bit overboard for fighting rebels.

  • 07.28.2011 4:26 PM PDT


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Kidnapping children to turn them into killing machines is a bit overboard for fighting rebels.


They could do the other method. Just nuke the -blam!- out of any colony that has rebels in it.

  • 07.28.2011 4:33 PM PDT

They call me HEY MAN!!!!!

The SPARTAN project had way to many victims during the physical enhancement which was to much of a big lost for the money they spent on the training as well as the enhencement itself.

On the other hand, the SPARTAN project was also the best weapon UNSC has ever had (yet)

[Edited on 07.28.2011 4:36 PM PDT]

  • 07.28.2011 4:35 PM PDT

Lets Boogie

It was wrong and immoral, it doesn't matter that they were used to fight the covenant. It was still wrong. Even if the covenant never had a war with Man, the spartans would have still been made to fight the rebels. And the idea of capturing kids, brainwashing them, trying to make them more machine then man, and drain the things that make them human, experimenting on them, there is NO justification for that. The sad thing, is that UNSC made them to fight rebels, which i think is a pretty pathetic excuse. After all, the creation of the Rebel movement wasn't all the Rebel's fault, but the UNSC's as well, but the UNSC wanted an easy fix for this rebel problem, so instead taking it like a man, they decided to use kids to do their dirty work.

Not only did they capture and experiment on kids, in which some died in the process, they also created flash cloned kids, and ALL of them died, so they killed ALOT OF KIDS, if you add up the kids that died from experimentation, and the kids that "naturally" died because they were clones.

It goes to show, that the UNSC can be similar to the "monsters" they fight later on to save humanity.

  • 07.28.2011 5:00 PM PDT

We're never what we invent or intend.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Blitzkrieg460
Ethically, it's looked down upon. Kidnapping 6 year old kids from their homes and engineering them into super soldiers. A good percentage died during the augmentation. Not to mention, the SPARTAN Project began as a means to combat the Insurrectionists. A little overkill.


Actually, every single one that washed out(by dying) was placed in cryo-stasis with hopes of reviving them.

I'd say the spartans were the lesser evil, compared to the extreme actions the rebels were taking (Nuking a colony).

Overall IMO, it's not the best choice, but it was needed. Sometimes you just HAVE to do things you don't like.
As for ethically wrong, they kidnapped 6-year-olds, not only tearing them away from their families, but replacing them with clones doomed to die, possibly causing their parents more grief than through a simple disappearance. They then put them through incredibly brutal and insensitive training, often lethal and agonizing augmentations, and deployed them into live-fire combat zones against actual enemies. Not such a good thing.

DaeFaron, are you getting the cryostasis thing from a reprinted book? Because I remember, specifically, that the first scene in Fall of Reach after John goes under for the augmentation was the surviving Spartans standing on the firing deck of the carrier Atlas and watching as Mendez read an eulogy and ejected the ash canisters that contained the cremated remains of those who washed out by death.

[Edited on 07.28.2011 5:14 PM PDT]

  • 07.28.2011 5:09 PM PDT

From Cyro to Meta


Posted by: haloplayer2kill
It was wrong and immoral, it doesn't matter that they were used to fight the covenant. It was still wrong. Even if the covenant never had a war with Man, the spartans would have still been made to fight the rebels. And the idea of capturing kids, brainwashing them, trying to make them more machine then man, and drain the things that make them human, experimenting on them, there is NO justification for that. The sad thing, is that UNSC made them to fight rebels, which i think is a pretty pathetic excuse. After all, the creation of the Rebel movement wasn't all the Rebel's fault, but the UNSC's as well, but the UNSC wanted an easy fix for this rebel problem, so instead taking it like a man, they decided to use kids to do their dirty work.

Not only did they capture and experiment on kids, in which some died in the process, they also created flash cloned kids, and ALL of them died, so they killed ALOT OF KIDS, if you add up the kids that died from experimentation, and the kids that "naturally" died because they were clones.

It goes to show, that the UNSC can be similar to the "monsters" they fight later on to save humanity.

This is the best way to put it. This man knows his stuff.

  • 07.28.2011 6:30 PM PDT

Actually, putting a flash clone who would die is better then disappearance.

Why? Prevents long-term grief during investigation of disappeared children (many families would not have the resources to do an in-depth search, thus NEVER knowing what happened to their children.), and allows the family closure. When the flash clone dies, they grieve, and more on as normal.

"Take it like a man?" What? You mean the UNSC should have sacrificed FAR more servicemen and civilians to fight a costly civil war against extreme rebels willing to NUKE and ruin the lives of ENTIRE COLONIES?

Come on, 75 families having to go through a period of grief is the MORAL high ground compared to the rebels -blam!- murdering an entire UNSC crew (who did no hostile actions), and later setting off a nuke in the middle of a colony. I'm willing and able to look up the causality numbers for that action.

[Edited on 07.28.2011 6:45 PM PDT]

  • 07.28.2011 6:44 PM PDT


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Kidnapping children to turn them into killing machines is a bit overboard for fighting rebels.


If you read the data pads, it sort of implies that there is a higher power at work, guiding humanity, including the inception of the spartan program. And this higher power was aware of the threat the covenant posed well before the covenant even attacked. It is not pure luck that had the spartan program go into full swing (mjolnir) the same year the covenant attacked.

They also imply that there is a living entity that is aware of the entire thing as well (even though he has no control over it).

And greg bear implied that one genetic trait all spartan-IIs have in common is one originated from chakas and/or riser.

What I'm saying is that in the next few years I think they will thoroughly expand on why the spartan program was "destiny", and not simply desperation.

[Edited on 07.28.2011 7:39 PM PDT]

  • 07.28.2011 7:01 PM PDT

Lets Boogie


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Actually, putting a flash clone who would die is better then disappearance.

Why? Prevents long-term grief during investigation of disappeared children (many families would not have the resources to do an in-depth search, thus NEVER knowing what happened to their children.), and allows the family closure. When the flash clone dies, they grieve, and more on as normal.

"Take it like a man?" What? You mean the UNSC should have sacrificed FAR more servicemen and civilians to fight a costly civil war against extreme rebels willing to NUKE and ruin the lives of ENTIRE COLONIES?

Come on, 75 families having to go through a period of grief is the MORAL high ground compared to the rebels -blam!- murdering an entire UNSC crew (who did no hostile actions), and later setting off a nuke in the middle of a colony. I'm willing and able to look up the causality numbers for that action.


The ends do NOT justify the means.

You do know the UNSC is like a one world government? The UNSC DID have a part to play in the creation of the Rebels. It was many of the UNSC policies (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Far_Isle) which caused the "innies" to start taking more drastic measures. Im not saying all the Rebels are innocent, there not, some are terrorists and deserve to die. However when a government has a problem with their citizens, you don't kidnap children and do those horrible things to them that i stated earlier. And yes i expect them to have to sacrifice more UNSC soldiers, if it comes to either that, or creating the Spartan program, because THAT'S THERE JOB. These soldiers knew what they were getting in to when becoming apart of the military, they knew that there could come a day when they would die for the UNSC. But this is not a kids job, that's also why i don't believe in the concept of using child soldiers.

Your idea of wanting to do certain "things", in the name of saving more lives is a SLIPPERY SLOPE. For example, what if the UNSC finds a way to extend the life of a flash clone, and somehow make a way to use these clones on the battlefield. Is it ethical for the UNSC to produce mass amounts of these clones (being created to fight and die), in the name of saving lives of "normal" humans? Why not? There are many more examples that i could list, but you should get the point. If the UNSC always uses the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" approach for their problems, the UNSC would become something that doesn't deserve to be saved from the Rebels.

I do think that the UNSC could have found a better way in dealing with the Rebels then capturing kids. Now if you don't think like that, and believe the UNSC has to fall further into depravity/moral corruption, to win the civil war, then i pity you.

[Edited on 07.28.2011 7:13 PM PDT]

  • 07.28.2011 7:10 PM PDT

A: Far Isle can't really be used. It was nuked because of rebels, though the exact reasons are UNKNOWN.
B: The Spartans were created to fight the terrorist rebel organizations.
C: Spartans (II's) were hardly child soldiers when put in the field.
D: Flash cloning soldiers is a completely different thing.

If I was given several options, let's say these are my choices for ending the rebel threat.

1: Create Spartan program to have super-soldier capable of taking out terrorist threats with minimal civilian harm.
2: Give the rebels what they want (less taxes, more freedoms, etc). Results would be the same as (probably poor example) Hitler. You give them a foot, they take a mile, then another.
3: Wage a traditional war on the terrorists. Results would be large amounts of damage and loss of life for military and civilian assets.

You seem to have this misguided idea the Spartans were made because some civilians were complaining about too much taxes or too much food being taken. That's completely wrong. They were made to deal with the TERRORIST rebels. The ones willing, able, and completely for bombing buildings to hurt 3 ODSTs, regardless of the civilian loss of life. The guys WILLING to nuke a colony, killing 2 million people and injuring 8.3 million others.



To use a fitting example(from starcraft). You have Jim Raynor and Matt Homer. They want to make a better future for everybody (like the original, peaceful rebels.) They don't go trash a civilian's home just because they support Mengsk. Now they bring in their buddy Tychus (the terrorist rebels) who could give a -blam!- who gets harmed, or what blows up, as long as the dominion is harmed.

You see, I don't mind the rebels, I'm like Jorge. I support them wanting self-rule for the outer/all of the colonies. However the terrorists(the bulk of the rebels) I cannot sympathize, or even agree with because of their methods.


To finish. The ends might not justify the means, but it sure damn says you think the rebels were justified in their mass killings of civilians. Even if they won, I doubt they could form a stable government.

  • 07.28.2011 7:44 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

I am usually of an opinion that the ends justify the means, though I do have exceptions. The Spartans are not one of them.
The rebels killed millions. The grief of 75 families losing their children is a drop in the bucket in comparisin. The Spartans saved many lives by taking out various high value targets with minimal loss of (UNSC) life. They had no choice, but for the believers in fate, we never really do. They where taken without consent and made into something more. John killed dozens of rebel terrorists who could have killed thousands of civilians. If he wasn't a Spartan, he would have died in the war, having no discernible effect on it's outcome.

I even have trouble with the Spartan 3 program. None of them had families and they all joined up to get revenge on the Covenant. They did the hard jobs that no one else could have done. The destruction of all those high value targets alone could have won the UNSC the war.

  • 07.28.2011 8:30 PM PDT

"Sacrifice one to save a thousand."

In otherwords Seventy five when compared to billions. Hmm...I wonder. What could possibly be worse?

I mean it's so OBVIOUS that the Spartan Program was far worse then the terrorists that could have killed far more people if the Spartan Program never existed. I mean come on isn't it painfully obvious????


/Sarcasim

  • 07.28.2011 10:03 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: monkyw1thagun

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: monkyw1thagun
Well kidnapping 6 year old children is a start. Also some of them died because of the augmentations and some were permanently deformed from it too.


1. as if that doesn't happen now for s3x trade? atleast they actually had a purpose.

2. we now know that the deaths were faked to get black ops spartans.

Please dont tell me you are comparing a game with a made up storyline to real life.


And?

seriously being stolen for something insignificant as s3x trad or a bigger purpose? there is an entire thread about halo as a christian allegory so i don't understand why all of a sudden real life connections can not be made.

I brought it up because some people are acting as if children aren't being stolen today, funny think is the azi's did the exact same thing trying to make a super-solider; or is that irreverent because i am not allowed to make real life connections?


pathetic. Regardless, i am glad to see i am not the only one that doesn't seen an issue with the program.


Posted by: haloplayer2kill

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Actually, putting a flash clone who would die is better then disappearance.

Why? Prevents long-term grief during investigation of disappeared children (many families would not have the resources to do an in-depth search, thus NEVER knowing what happened to their children.), and allows the family closure. When the flash clone dies, they grieve, and more on as normal.

"Take it like a man?" What? You mean the UNSC should have sacrificed FAR more servicemen and civilians to fight a costly civil war against extreme rebels willing to NUKE and ruin the lives of ENTIRE COLONIES?

Come on, 75 families having to go through a period of grief is the MORAL high ground compared to the rebels -blam!- murdering an entire UNSC crew (who did no hostile actions), and later setting off a nuke in the middle of a colony. I'm willing and able to look up the causality numbers for that action.


And yes i expect them to have to sacrifice more UNSC soldiers, if it comes to either that, or creating the Spartan program, because THAT'S THERE JOB. These soldiers knew what they were getting in to when becoming apart of the military, they knew that there could come a day when they would die for the UNSC.



your one of those "work harder not smarter" people aren't you? which is exactly why america has been fighting a pointless war for what 11-12 years now, and why we are spending a trillion dollars a year to keep our military up.



All because people would rather work hard for 20 years rather than be smart for 5. I have never ever heard somebody say they would use 500 men to kill 100 rather than 100 to kill 500.

[Edited on 07.29.2011 5:21 AM PDT]

  • 07.29.2011 5:17 AM PDT

~ Life is Killing Me. ~

~ I hate, therefore I am. ~


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Kidnapping children to turn them into killing machines is a bit overboard for fighting rebels.


I very respectfully disagree.

"The good of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."

Besides, in the Spartan III program the candidates were older, with some of them into their teen years. ONI refined the process to the point that there were fewer shots, less invasive surgeries, and you still got a Spartan that was nigh indistinguishable from a Spartan II.

As far as making Spartans to pacify insurrectionists, here's a neat comparison;

Rather than sending in a small force of our regular military to take out a certain militant, we sent in SEAL Team 6. They're our (less advanced, but still wicked lethal) version of Spartans. Team 6 wasn't recruited from kidnapped children, but the times during the Spartan II were calling for massive, definitive action. If the UNSC and ONI hadn't made the Spartans, then the United Earth Government would have collapsed long before the Covenant threatened our species' survival.

So again I say; the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few (or the one).


Celer. Silens. Mortalis.

  • 07.29.2011 5:53 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

SIIIs were actually younger than the SIIs, Noble team are the only SIIIs we have being in their teens.


Might be to cryo though

  • 07.29.2011 5:55 AM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

See, you're thinking about it from the perspective of fighting. Yes, you're right, it was good that they used the Spartans to fight. They were the best of the best. But, what's wrong with the Spartan Program? Well, the obvious, they were kidnapping children at the age of 6. (You have to limit this to the S-II's because S-III's were revenge-motivated.) After kidnapping them, they flash-cloned them. You may think this justifies the kidnapping, but in reality kidnapping is kidnapping. Plus, the flash-clones were almost made to fail. Leaving the family with even more hardship along with the whole war, itself. Also, S-III's were considered "disposable". I don't really think I need to explain why that's not exactly right. But, in a time of war, sometimes people need to send good soldiers to their deaths. Even today...

  • 07.29.2011 7:37 AM PDT