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This topic has moved here: Subject: The Reapers>The Covenant.
  • Subject: The Reapers>The Covenant.
Subject: The Reapers>The Covenant.
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Posted by: Vercetti24

Posted by: Fin5434p
It's entirely possible that the UNSC could defeat them on their own, especially if you use the (canon, if a little crazy) figures for the MAC gun's firepower shown in the Encyclopedia.

Actually with the current MAC firepower they could still win. Nukes bypass kinetic barriers and UNSC nukes have more firepower then entire ME fleets can fire in hours or days, they could probably still take out the Reapers even if their shields magically worked, why? Reapers can be destroyed by ME's forces, stated in canon a couple times.
SMACs wouldn't have difficulties with destroying them either. If the Reapers made the fatal mistake and have the bulk of their fleet stay at the same place they would be hit with a NOVA, which could be launched through Slipspace. And then there are also people like Captain Keyes...
As long as the Reapers would be limited to the estimated numbers of around 800 UNSC stands a chance.

I think you'll find just about everything you just said is made null by the physics of a vacuum and kinetic barriers...

as for your Keyes reference, I quote ME1 "that ship [sovereign] just pulled a turn that would shear any of our ships in half"
ME ships generally have ridiculous handling and turning capabilities, UNSC ships are extremely slow and blocky, to try pull a Keyes loop on a reaper is suicide...literally

  • 09.16.2011 6:17 AM PDT


Posted by: jakemaidment
I think you'll find just about everything you just said is made null by the physics of a vacuum and kinetic barriers...

as for your Keyes reference, I quote ME1 "that ship [sovereign] just pulled a turn that would shear any of our ships in half"
ME ships generally have ridiculous handling and turning capabilities, UNSC ships are extremely slow and blocky, to try pull a Keyes loop on a reaper is suicide...literally

I think you'll just find our entire argument becoming invalid because Halo is fiction with canon stating that nukes are effective in space and kinetic barriers don't block thermonuclear energy outside your little MEtard world....
And if just for now I followed your logic then I'm afraid all eezo-based tech has stopped working because it's not possible.

Becuase I obviously meant the Keyes Loop instead of Keyes being a brilliant tactician....
And don't start about trying to claim Reapers have brilliant tactics, nothing yet has indicated that.

[Edited on 09.16.2011 7:48 AM PDT]

  • 09.16.2011 7:47 AM PDT
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Posted by: chotato
smart, interesting, seems out of place.


Official fan of Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, (Problem with that?) Halo, and Bungie, also a total gaming junkie.

...

*Throws anti-matter bombs at Reapers and opens up slipspace portals to oblivion

  • 09.16.2011 7:59 AM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.

Posted by: jakemaidment
I think you'll find just about everything you just said is made null by the physics of a vacuum and kinetic barriers...


While you are technically correct in that conventional nuclear weapons would be vastly less effective in space, the UNSC "vaccuum enhanced" Nuclear weapons seem to be very effective.

While it's never really mentioned (or even explained at all) what the "vaccuum enhanced" bit actually means, it is none the less made clear that they aren't purely fission/fusion bombs.

Their effective radii and destructive power makes that very clear as well; A conventional nuke detonating in space would be like a big strobe-bulb going off, and do all it's damage via EM radiation heating the target.
Needless to say, that isn't very efficient and it's range is subject to the inverse square law (the nuke acts as a point-source).

UNSC nukes on the other hand seem to persist for a while, there are descriptions of firey light consuming areas, and you can only see the damage when it "clears". They also remain lethal at considerable range, and appear to exhibit some blast effects in some descriptions.

All very unusual for a 'nuke'.

as for your Keyes reference, I quote ME1 "that ship [sovereign] just pulled a turn that would shear any of our ships in half"
ME ships generally have ridiculous handling and turning capabilities, UNSC ships are extremely slow and blocky, to try pull a Keyes loop on a reaper is suicide...literally


UNSC ships are actually pretty nimble, we see two Frigates performing high-G manuevers in game:
The UNSC In Amber Clad.
And the UNSC Forward Unto Dawn.
Please bear in mind these frigates are around 480m long, much larger than the Normandy's 180-ish meter length (infact closer to the size of ME cruisers).

Even the Pillar Of Autumn has an impressive turn of speed for such a massive vessel-she is over a kilometer long.


Posted by: Vercetti24

I think you'll just find our entire argument becoming invalid because Halo is fiction with canon stating that nukes are effective in space


He was technically correct, just UNSC nukes don't behave as they should.

and kinetic barriers don't block thermonuclear energy outside your little MEtard world....

Given we don't know enough about how the UNSC nukes actually work we can't say they will pass straight through kinetic barriers, it's quite clear that they produce more than an EM-flash, so kinetic barriers may be effective protection.

And if just for now I followed your logic then I'm afraid all eezo-based tech has stopped working because it's not possible.

Let's not get all silly now.

Becuase I obviously meant the Keyes Loop instead of Keyes being a brilliant tactician....
And don't start about trying to claim Reapers have brilliant tactics, nothing yet has indicated that.


When in doubt, assume competance.

The UNSC has competant crews on it's ships, the Reapers appear to act in a competant (if ruthlessly premeditated) manner as well, if they were complete morons they wouldn't have lasted that long would they?

  • 09.16.2011 12:39 PM PDT


Posted by: jakemaidment

Posted by: Vercetti24

Posted by: Fin5434p
It's entirely possible that the UNSC could defeat them on their own, especially if you use the (canon, if a little crazy) figures for the MAC gun's firepower shown in the Encyclopedia.

Actually with the current MAC firepower they could still win. Nukes bypass kinetic barriers and UNSC nukes have more firepower then entire ME fleets can fire in hours or days, they could probably still take out the Reapers even if their shields magically worked, why? Reapers can be destroyed by ME's forces, stated in canon a couple times.
SMACs wouldn't have difficulties with destroying them either. If the Reapers made the fatal mistake and have the bulk of their fleet stay at the same place they would be hit with a NOVA, which could be launched through Slipspace. And then there are also people like Captain Keyes...
As long as the Reapers would be limited to the estimated numbers of around 800 UNSC stands a chance.

I think you'll find just about everything you just said is made null by the physics of a vacuum and kinetic barriers...



So according to you, half of everything we know about UNSC naval tactics just got voided?

Right.....

Also, a 32 kiloton strike would "tear right through any ship in the Alliance fleet" (again I return your attention to "Alliance>Imperium" just to reiterate how stupid that is) what would a 30 megaton blast do to a Reaper? Because quite clearly, sub kiloton missiles can go right through them. A thirty megaton heated explosion (Kinetic barriers do not stop heat; to deny this is to deny ME canon) would obliterate a Reaper or two or three.

Perspective: Covenant cruisers (some of them) fire at 20/30 megaton ranges using their plasma turrets. Others fire less, like Corvettes, others more (Assault Carriers had been calculated to be any where between 70 and 201 gigatons, or 32,000,000 Destiny Ascension rounds per every 32 gigatons).

So what killed Sovereign? Not even a kiloton round. What can a Covie ship dish out? 1,000,000 times the yield of the protagonists' strongest weaponry. Using what kind of weaponry? Energy Weaponry, that ignores kinetic shielding

Why do you continue to deny it? You HAVE to see the Reapers can't win.

  • 09.16.2011 1:24 PM PDT

*Walks back into the thread, looks around. Starts laughing and walks back out.*

BTW, go Roberto for using crazy numbers out the window and assuming one encounter = the same for all. My brother used a good example, a round from the mass driver at the end of Reach would go through a Covenant ship entirely after the rest of the UNSC fleet had been pounding it for a good while.

As shown in that ME3 video, an orbital strike from a fleet did no noticeable damage to the reaper.

There is also the issue of how the explosion is shaped. Anti-armor explosions are very focused, while general high explosive rounds cause large amounts of damage over a wide area.

I must say Roberto, you are quite the hypocrite. Calculating explosions when there is no information other then visual which does not give a good indication of size, using these numbers as hard facts but hating on others for using hard factual numbers from other universes...

You never even proved Cortana can 'calculate every atom in the universe.' Infact, your proof features several people saying otherwise. Even then the site is not a very good source on canon information, as I've heard it's heavily biased.

[Edited on 09.16.2011 7:56 PM PDT]

  • 09.16.2011 1:32 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
*Walks back into the thread, looks around. Starts laughing and walks back out.*

BTW, go Roberto for using crazy numbers out the window and assuming one encounter = the same for all. My brother used a good example, a round from the mass driver at the end of Reach would go through a Covenant ship entirely after the rest of the UNSC fleet had been pounding it for a good while.

As shown in that ME3 video, an orbital strike from a fleet did no noticeable damage to the reaper.

There is also the issue of how the explosion is shaped. Anti-armor explosions are very focused, while general high explosive rounds cause large amounts of damage.

I must say Roberto, you are quite the hypocrite. Calculating explosions when there is no information other then visual which does not give a good indication of size, using these numbers as hard facts but hating on others for using hard factual numbers from other universes...

You never even proved Cortana can 'calculate every atom in the universe.' Infact, your proof features several people saying otherwise. Even then the site is not a very good source on canon information, as I've heard it's heavily biased.


Pwnt!

  • 09.16.2011 7:53 PM PDT

I try to bury my Halo hatred but I have to say the Forerunners have to be the Second biggest Galactic idiots in the known fictional universe. Lets see the only way to save the Universe Is to destroy all life in it? To push CTRL+alt+ delete and reboot the entire galaxy? There almost as dumb as the Covenant for praying to the giant life nuking Rings and the Spaceballs.

  • 09.16.2011 8:09 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

And do you know why they did it?
Do you have any idea why, the Didact, who passionately opposed and delayed the halos, activated the array?

No you don't.
No I don't.
But it's not without reason and only 343 industries knows.

  • 09.16.2011 10:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: Spartan 100
And do you know why they did it?
Do you have any idea why, the Didact, who passionately opposed and delayed the halos, activated the array?

No you don't.
No I don't.
But it's not without reason and only 343 industries knows.


How about the fact that the Flood had turned the majority of the Forerunners own weapons and one of its most powerful AIs against it? They were going to die anyways, why not take the enemy with you?

  • 09.16.2011 11:15 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

The flood? Or the precursor?

  • 09.16.2011 11:39 PM PDT
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Kinda both really.

  • 09.16.2011 11:45 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

The prisoner made humans suicide. They made them mad. We will know more about him in January.

  • 09.16.2011 11:47 PM PDT
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But we can acurately say the Forerunners were not idiots. Plus the rings have been shown to have different fireing settings than "Galactic Sentient Annihalation" mode.

  • 09.16.2011 11:54 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: ThePredkiller2
I try to bury my Halo hatred but I have to say the Forerunners have to be the Second biggest Galactic idiots in the known fictional universe. Lets see the only way to save the Universe Is to destroy all life in it? To push CTRL+alt+ delete and reboot the entire galaxy? There almost as dumb as the Covenant for praying to the giant life nuking Rings and the Spaceballs.


No you are the -blam!- idiot in this thread.

First of all they preserved all life.If they really were idiots as you claimed then they would have activated the rings without preserving some speciment first for the fauna and flora.

Secondly they had no choice to activate tthe rings at the end of the war if the Flood were suddenly consuming millions of worlds .The Flood were winning,they had Timeless One,Mendicant Bias and the Gravemind at their side(Timeless One/Mind theory still has to be resolved).

There are millions-billions of planets in the galaxy,the Forerunners can't check them all to see if there is a Flood infection or not.They didn't liked using the array but they had to,if they didn't then the galaxy would have been lost.

It isn't the first time in fiction that a species would commit a huge sacrifise just to stop a dangeroes foe,i can guarentee you that a nation like USA would be willing to nuke their cities if some virus present there is nigh unstoppable.

If you hate Halo so much,then what the -blam!- are ou doing here. You life in a such bored life that you have nothing to do then troll on sites to piss of Halo fans?Just GTFO if you don't then fine cuz we would be glad to destroy your pitiful posts on this site.

  • 09.17.2011 12:35 AM PDT


Posted by: ThePredkiller2
I try to bury my Halo hatred but I have to say the Forerunners have to be the Second biggest Galactic idiots in the known fictional universe. Lets see the only way to save the Universe Is to destroy all life in it? To push CTRL+alt+ delete and reboot the entire galaxy? There almost as dumb as the Covenant for praying to the giant life nuking Rings and the Spaceballs.


You should be ashamed of yourself. Talking about things you now nothing of, baiting others. You just can't take it that your beloved Reapers would lose, or any faction that oppose a faction in halo canon. You provide no arguments, nothing is backed up, you're an idiot. Go back to kindergarten.

  • 09.17.2011 4:27 AM PDT


Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
*Walks back into the thread, looks around. Starts laughing and walks back out.*

BTW, go Roberto for using crazy numbers out the window and assuming one encounter = the same for all. My brother used a good example, a round from the mass driver at the end of Reach would go through a Covenant ship entirely after the rest of the UNSC fleet had been pounding it for a good while.

As shown in that ME3 video, an orbital strike from a fleet did no noticeable damage to the reaper.

There is also the issue of how the explosion is shaped. Anti-armor explosions are very focused, while general high explosive rounds cause large amounts of damage.

I must say Roberto, you are quite the hypocrite. Calculating explosions when there is no information other then visual which does not give a good indication of size, using these numbers as hard facts but hating on others for using hard factual numbers from other universes...

You never even proved Cortana can 'calculate every atom in the universe.' Infact, your proof features several people saying otherwise. Even then the site is not a very good source on canon information, as I've heard it's heavily biased.


Pwnt!


I stopped reading at the underlined part.

Throughout the whole freaking thread, we have shown time and time again that Covenant firepower>Systems firepower.

In fact, we have shown time and time again also that pretty much everything in the Halo universe is vastly superior to the Mass Effect universe in terms of power.

You also didn't disprove any arguments- except the ones that, ya know, don't matter to the freaking argument.

As for you PredKiller, I am disappointed that you would sit and lurk until someone tried (and failed) to make a good argument for you, then say something like "Pwnt!". THEN go and bash the Halo-verse.

None of us have bashed the ME universe. In fact I'm sure we all love it. But we're being realistic (or as realistic as we can in sci-fi) about this argument. Good day sirs.

  • 09.17.2011 6:08 AM PDT

You honestly think I'm going to just give up? No. I don't care how many people pile up on me over this, I'm not going to back down. I have as much a right as anyone else to defend my personally preferred gaming universe from all transgressors, and so I shall.

There is some overrating of the Halo weapons.

c~ 300,000,000 m/s, 1kT TNT equiv ~ 4.18e12 J

First the MAC. 600ton at 30,000m/s (0.0001c). Relativistic kinetic energy = 2.7e14 J or about 64kT

Mass Effect: 20kg at 3,897,301m/s (0.013 c). Relativistic kinetic energy = 1.5e14 J or 36kT.

Dunno why the gunny says it is 38kT....

So yeah Halo MAC is about 2x as powerful. It isn't hugely more powerful. The crappy Pillar of Autumn with its 3 shot MAC could take out the shields and disable most Covenant ships in one "burst." But, it had lightened projectiles of an unspecified mass. There is no reason to think that the Covenant shields are all that much better than Mass Effect barriers, specifically Reaper barriers when Sovereign was getting hammered by the 5th fleet for a while before his barriers went down.

Also don't forget that Covenant have to drop part of their shields to even fire their plasma "torpedoes." A well aimed shot with a Thanix or Reaper beam in that point will slice a Covenant ship in half.

Also, let us not blatantly ignore the weapon fired at Klendagon!

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Klendagon
Notice it says "glancing blow". If it were not even a direct hit and it carved a trench in the planet's surface, imagine what a direct hit, straight perpendicular, or not even, maybe like 40 degrees even, would do to a planet? It would probably blast it into planetary splinters. And if a shot like that only marginally disabled a Reaper (Who's power core was still active).

And imagine the firepower that species that the Reapers STILL DEFEATED in the end, possessed. I think they would give the Forerunners a run for their money, considering the fact I don't ever remember the Forerunners possessing weapons that could splinter entire planets with one shot.

[Edited on 09.17.2011 6:33 AM PDT]

  • 09.17.2011 6:24 AM PDT

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[Edited on 09.17.2011 6:29 AM PDT]

  • 09.17.2011 6:28 AM PDT
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I have no need for a signature. S'all about being different.


Posted by: ThePredkiller2

And imagine the firepower that species that the Reapers STILL DEFEATED in the end, possessed. I think they would give the Forerunners a run for their money, considering the fact I don't ever remember the Forerunners possessing weapons that could splinter entire planets with one shot.


I had to catch my breath from laughing so hard at this thread. That line made it even funnier.

You never read Cryptum did you?

The Forerunners had ground forces that could do that.

  • 09.17.2011 7:58 AM PDT

Zowerpower, the point is Roberto seems to constantly go "Oh these incredibly weak weapons can easily gut a reaper." or some such nonsense. Did he not reference that gameplay video as "How weak a reaper is"?


Posted by: The Ultra

Posted by: ThePredkiller2

And imagine the firepower that species that the Reapers STILL DEFEATED in the end, possessed. I think they would give the Forerunners a run for their money, considering the fact I don't ever remember the Forerunners possessing weapons that could splinter entire planets with one shot.


I had to catch my breath from laughing so hard at this thread. That line made it even funnier.

You never read Cryptum did you?

The Forerunners had ground forces that could do that.


Amusing, as in the discussions I've read no such ground forces were listed. Even then ground forces breaking up the planet = suicide as they'd be killed when it happens.

  • 09.17.2011 10:14 AM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

War-sphinxes and their newer versions.

Why don't you guys just report Pred?

  • 09.17.2011 10:55 AM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
BTW, go Roberto for using crazy numbers out the window and assuming one encounter = the same for all.


His numbers aren't crazy, there are canon events that support higher numbers (see my calculation on page 14). Mid-Megaton to Mid-Gigaton is a reasonable assessment of Covenant firepower given their observed capabilities.

As to the one event=all thing, we have seen one Reaper in combat. Just one. It is the only direct evidence we have.

As shown in that ME3 video, an orbital strike from a fleet did no noticeable damage to the reaper.

Citadel fleet=/=Covenant fleet. Different weapon types, different firepower equivalents, and different fleet doctrine.
But, link please, I've not seen all that many ME3 trailers, if there is a new one I'd like to see it :)

There is also the issue of how the explosion is shaped. Anti-armor explosions are very focused, while general high explosive rounds cause large amounts of damage over a wide area.
Both of those are only applicable in atmosphere, as they rely on a pressure wave to cause damage.
The difference against armour between a DET weapon and a kinetic impactor is momentum transfer, the impactor will almost certainly vapourise on impact anyway so in both cases the ship is subjected to plasma after impact. Effectiveness vs kinetic barriers is the key issue here.

I must say Roberto, you are quite the hypocrite. Calculating explosions when there is no information other then visual which does not give a good indication of size, using these numbers as hard facts but hating on others for using hard factual numbers from other universes...

The ME codex is more canon than the visuals, when in doubt use the codex if possible.

Even then the site is not a very good source on canon information, as I've heard it's heavily biased.

What site? (If it's SB.com allow me a preemptive chuckle...)


----------------------------



Posted by: ThePredkiller2
You honestly think I'm going to just give up? No. I don't care how many people pile up on me over this, I'm not going to back down. I have as much a right as anyone else to defend my personally preferred gaming universe from all transgressors, and so I shall.


So, you have a chip on your shoulder, nice to know I guess, you'll be approaching the discussion from the "decide which side I want to win then fudge the numbers till it does" angle then?

Not a very honest debating practice, but there you go...

There is some overrating of the Halo weapons.

c~ 300,000,000 m/s, 1kT TNT equiv ~ 4.18e12 J

First the MAC. 600ton at 30,000m/s (0.0001c). Relativistic kinetic energy = 2.7e14 J or about 64kT

Mass Effect: 20kg at 3,897,301m/s (0.013 c). Relativistic kinetic energy = 1.5e14 J or 36kT.

Dunno why the gunny says it is 38kT....


Could you please post the source on these numbers?

The crappy Pillar of Autumn

What's wrong with the P.O.A.?

its 3 shot MAC could take out the shields and disable most Covenant ships in one "burst." But, it had lightened projectiles of an unspecified mass.

Reference please.

There is no reason to think that the Covenant shields are all that much better than Mass Effect barriers,

Well they are certainly better protection against a wide range of threats. If you assume absolute lowest-end numbers for the Covenant (ie: ignore each and every referance to Covenant warships setting worlds ablaze, or blasting city sized asteroids, and assume the supercarrier can barely move its own mass etc) then I'm sure you could construct an argument for that being the case.

Also don't forget that Covenant have to drop part of their shields to even fire their plasma "torpedoes." A well aimed shot with a Thanix or Reaper beam in that point will slice a Covenant ship in half.

While a weakness it is such a minor one as to be negligible, it's a bit like saying a Knight in full plate has thin eyeslits to see through, so can be taken down at 500 paces with a well thrown coin.

Also, let us not blatantly ignore the weapon fired at Klendagon!

Ah yes, I've seen this argument before, it's always fun.

Do tell us about the weapon that did that.

Specifically, please show that the Reapers either owned it, or survived a direct shot from it, or anything of that nature.

You may struggle as we know pretty much nothing about it, except the round must have been massive and made of some supermaterial.

imagine what a direct hit, straight perpendicular, or not even, maybe like 40 degrees even, would do to a planet? It would probably blast it into planetary splinters.

Erm, no. Not by a long shot, the GBE of a planet like Klendagon is pretty huge, you are not going to be cracking planets with that one. Kill everything on the surface, sure.

And if a shot like that only marginally disabled a Reaper (Who's power core was still active).

Given the size of the rift, the round itself was probably much larger than the Reaper, I very much doubt it took the shot to the face...

And imagine the firepower that species that the Reapers STILL DEFEATED in the end, possessed.

For all we know that was a one-off superweapon. And we know nothing about the race that built it, or how they died.

I think they would give the Forerunners a run for their money, considering the fact I don't ever remember the Forerunners possessing weapons that could splinter entire planets with one shot.

Their warships are capable of breaking worlds, their fleets can destroy entire star systems, they are way out of everyone we are discussing's league, best to leave them out of the discussion entirely.

  • 09.17.2011 11:47 AM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.


Posted by: Spartan 100
War-sphinxes and their newer versions.


They can break up bits of the crust, but they can't 'splinter planets' or anything like that, they are powerful, sure, but not on that scale.

Why don't you guys just report Pred?

Why? He is just fighting his corner, I happen to think he is wrong, and going about the whole debate the wrong way, but he's allowed to do that.

He should only be reported if he starts breaking rules.

  • 09.17.2011 11:51 AM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.

Lulz, blacklisted XD

  • 09.17.2011 3:58 PM PDT