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  • Subject: The Reapers>The Covenant.
Subject: The Reapers>The Covenant.
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Posted by: jakemaidment

Posted by: Fin5434p
The Reaper Nazara 'Sovereign' was taken down by a fleet action of ships that have mid-kiloton equivalent firepower. Hence the Covenant should be able to take down the Reapers in fleet action as well.

you forget that not only was sovereign stunned when Saren was killed, but his long range weaponry systems were down and he was trying to unlock the citadel manually.


I'm not forgetting it as such, that cutscene has enough errors (eg: the Normandy firing missiles instead of mass accellerator rounds etc) that I'm going for the simplest explaination for the event.
Namely; Nazara's defences were overwhelmed, allowing the Normandy a kill-shot.

being a scout, the odds were stacked against him, yet he still managed to cripple the alliance...

SOLO

Nazara did not do much in the battle combat-wise, the massive Geth fleet he had with him (he was *NOT* alone) overwhelmed the Citadel fleet *after* he was already inside the station.

His initial rush wiped out a few Citadel cruisers, and his Geth support took the Citadel fleet, and the Arcturis (human) fleet took the Geth one, and then Nazara as well.

  • 09.13.2011 6:13 AM PDT


Posted by: jakemaidment

Posted by: Felco1

Posted by: jakemaidment

[quote]Posted by: superiorarsenal
you can make ALOT of close comparisons and get a general idea.
for example, the guns on mass effect use the same mechanics as a MAC in halo.


Nope. According to the guy on the citadel, Mass accelerators are considerably weaker.

"This recruits is a 20 kilo ferous slug. Feel the weight! Every five seconds, the main gun of an Everest-class dreadnought accelerates one, to one-point-three percent of lightspeed.
It impacts with the force a 38 kiloton bomb. That is three times the yield of the city buster dropped on Hiroshima back on Earth. That means, Sir Isacc Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-***** in space! Now! Serviceman Burnside, what is Newton's First Law?..."

48 kilotons of force. compare this to the UNSC's MAC cannons, which fire 600 ton slugs at 30,000 metres per second, impacting with 1.17 teratons of energy. And shielded covenant ships can shrug off these impacts at least once. If covenant shields can survive these blasts while reapers can be destroyed by Mass Accelerator blasts, it is obvious which one has superior shielding. Oh, and kinetic barriers offer no protection against energy weaponry whatsoever, so Covenant lasers will make Reaper swiss cheese, with collector garnish.


firstly note how I said 'similar mechanics' not 'same round size', when I said about the mass accelerators I meant the handheld weaponry aswell, it all uses gauss technology, developed during WW2 for sea-mines then later developed into prototype weapons.

I'd expect the mass accelerator on ME ships to be better than a MAC because it uses much more advanced tech than the UNSC have, plus they use element zero to boost it.

also, don't forget about superMACs, able to punch right through a CCS in one shot

as for the plasma vs kinetic shields point, the shield deflects the mass of the plasma, the heat can't travel much further than that as there is no mass to carry it in a vacuum


This post of yours is one of the reasons your arguments can't be viewed as valid. You lose.

That was a direct quote telling you how strong a mass accelerator is. Folowed by that, you see the power of a MAC-strike. That isn't speculation (like you always seem to use), it's an fact in the halo universe (altough the power could be slightly different, but still way stronger). By telling you expect a mass accelerator to be better, even though you just read the immense difference between power, you can now be viewed as an idiot. which you are.

If you can't accept the fact a MAC is stronger, then gtfo and never come back.

  • 09.13.2011 8:00 AM PDT

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Have absolutely no idea what these 'reapers' are so can anyone explain?

  • 09.13.2011 8:10 AM PDT
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Posted by: Birco001
Have absolutely no idea what these 'reapers' are so can anyone explain?


They are from the game Mass Effect, Bio-technological starships run by ancient AI. They are the 'Ancient Enemy' and main threat in the Mass effect storyline.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Reaper

[Edited on 09.13.2011 8:21 AM PDT]

  • 09.13.2011 8:18 AM PDT
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Posted by: TooMuchAlcohol

Posted by: jakemaidment

Posted by: Felco1

Posted by: jakemaidment

[quote]Posted by: superiorarsenal
you can make ALOT of close comparisons and get a general idea.
for example, the guns on mass effect use the same mechanics as a MAC in halo.


Nope. According to the guy on the citadel, Mass accelerators are considerably weaker.

"This recruits is a 20 kilo ferous slug. Feel the weight! Every five seconds, the main gun of an Everest-class dreadnought accelerates one, to one-point-three percent of lightspeed.
It impacts with the force a 38 kiloton bomb. That is three times the yield of the city buster dropped on Hiroshima back on Earth. That means, Sir Isacc Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-***** in space! Now! Serviceman Burnside, what is Newton's First Law?..."

48 kilotons of force. compare this to the UNSC's MAC cannons, which fire 600 ton slugs at 30,000 metres per second, impacting with 1.17 teratons of energy. And shielded covenant ships can shrug off these impacts at least once. If covenant shields can survive these blasts while reapers can be destroyed by Mass Accelerator blasts, it is obvious which one has superior shielding. Oh, and kinetic barriers offer no protection against energy weaponry whatsoever, so Covenant lasers will make Reaper swiss cheese, with collector garnish.


firstly note how I said 'similar mechanics' not 'same round size', when I said about the mass accelerators I meant the handheld weaponry aswell, it all uses gauss technology, developed during WW2 for sea-mines then later developed into prototype weapons.

I'd expect the mass accelerator on ME ships to be better than a MAC because it uses much more advanced tech than the UNSC have, plus they use element zero to boost it.

also, don't forget about superMACs, able to punch right through a CCS in one shot

as for the plasma vs kinetic shields point, the shield deflects the mass of the plasma, the heat can't travel much further than that as there is no mass to carry it in a vacuum


This post of yours is one of the reasons your arguments can't be viewed as valid. You lose.

That was a direct quote telling you how strong a mass accelerator is. Folowed by that, you see the power of a MAC-strike. That isn't speculation (like you always seem to use), it's an fact in the halo universe (altough the power could be slightly different, but still way stronger). By telling you expect a mass accelerator to be better, even though you just read the immense difference between power, you can now be viewed as an idiot. which you are.

If you can't accept the fact a MAC is stronger, then gtfo and never come back.

LOL sorry, my bad for misreading all those confusing numbers, I've just been sent a load of useful links, I'm sorting through my own share of confusing numbers now

  • 09.13.2011 11:51 AM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.

The problem here is what numbers to use really.

The numbers for Mass Effect are stated as 38kt-equivalent every 5 seconds from the main gun of an Everest-Class dreadnaught.

That gives us a 'firepower' value we can abstract to 27.36Mt per hour, or 27,360kt/hr if you prefer.
(Assuming the Everest can fire at this rate continuously for an hour.)

Lets look at the Covenant:

The start of the book The Fall Of Reach has John watching the glassing of Jericho VII (This is not related to the Reach game and so has not been contradicted story-wise).

I have the old copy of the book (if the new one changes anything someone let me know please) and took the liberty of runing a basic 'back of envelope' calculation.

It gives us one of very few calculable events for a Covenant fleet going all-out.

It is also undeniably a very high-end event, probably the highest 'observed' Covenant firepower shown in canon.

We are told;

Three dozenCovenant ships-big ones, destroyers and cruisers, winked into view in the system.


So, 36 capital-class vessels in the Fleet.

Their lateral lines brightened with plasma, then discharged and rained fire down upon Jericho VII.

This is consistent with the book's description of plasma torpedoes being fired, and is not consistant with the use of an excavation beam the so-called 'glassing beam' observed in Covenant ground actions. (I believe that the 'glassing beam' is more a tactical device than a strategic weapon due to the way it is used in Halo3, Halo ODST, and Halo Reach)

The Chief watched for an hour and didn't move a muscle.
The planet's lakes, rivers, and oceans vapourised. By tomorrow, the atmosphere would boil away, too.
Fields and forests were glassy smooth and glowing red hot in patches.
Where there had once been a paradise, only hell remained.


So we have timeframe and effects for this too. (yay)

Lets focus on one part for simplicity;
In one hour, the time John spent watching, the oceans of Jericho 7 have completely boiled off. Vapourised.

The planet is described as a paradise, and seems Earth-like, so it must have a similar ocean volume to Earth to maintain that climate.

Let's assume it does anyway, Earth has 1.3 billion cubic kilometers of water in her oceans, this weighs in at roughly 1.3x10^18 Tons.

To simplify the calculation, we'll just assume the oceans of Jericho VII are already at boiling point (they obviously won't be, so the resulting calculation will be less than the 'realistically' required amount of energy, but this is just a ballpark figure anyway).
We will also assume that all the fire from the Covie fleet goes into the ocean water alone, ignoring heat lost to the land, and atmosphere, and assume 100% efficient energy transfer to the water.

The enthalpy of vapourisation of water is 40.68kJ/mol

One mole of H2O weighs 18.015 grams, so the enthalpy of vapourisation can be expressed as 2.258x10^9 J/ton

How much energy is required to evaporate the ocean? (assuming it's already at 100 degrees C);

(2.258x10^9) X (1.3x10^18)
= 2.936x10^27 Joules.

One Megaton=4.184x10^15 Joules

So the Covenant fleet between them put out (as a minimum) 7.016x10^11 Megatons of energy in that hour.

Divided by 36 gives us an average of 1.95x10^10 Mt/hr for a covenant cruiser or destroyer.


So let's compare;

Everest-Class: 27.36 Mt/hr
CCS-Class: 1.95x10^10 Mt/hr
or 19500000000 Mt/hr if you prefer.



This number is debatable of course, but as I said at the start, your answer will depend on the numbers you choose to use.

[Edited on 09.13.2011 2:07 PM PDT]

  • 09.13.2011 2:03 PM PDT
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So let's compare;

Everest-Class: 27.36 Mt/hr
CCS-Class: 1.95x10^10 Mt/hr
or 19500000000 Mt/hr if you prefer.



This number is debatable of course, but as I said at the start, your answer will depend on the numbers you choose to use.

(I only quoted that bit to save space)
I think I just about understood all that, though when you said the description was consistently used to describe plasma torpedoes, I REALLY doubt they'd be used for a planetary bombardment, and definitely not to boil away the ocean, the glassing beam would be more effective.
plus, an output of "19500000000 Mt/hr" does seem overpowered enough to be a glassing beam, eg: a beam of energy capable of turning soil particles into glass (I think it was technically a silica something, glass basically)

currently I'm reading through similar confusing numbers, found some extra data on kinetic shielding and ME armour plating, just quoting everything and putting it into understandable numbers before I post

  • 09.13.2011 2:10 PM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.


Posted by: jakemaidment
I think I just about understood all that,


I'd be happy to try and clarify any part of it, it does look confusing I know! Blame my poor formatting skills...

though when you said the description was consistently used to describe plasma torpedoes, I REALLY doubt they'd be used for a planetary bombardment, and definitely not to boil away the ocean,

Just commenting on the scene as described, that's the description it gives.

the glassing beam would be more effective.

I personally think the community term 'glassing beam' is actually a misnomer; In every example of it's use we have the Covenant are using it to either excavate an artifact, or in close proximity to their own troops, in battlezones. (The mother of all close air support, perhaps?).
It's always depicted as a tactical anti-groundforces weapon, or a mining tool. Rarely is it depicted as anything else in Halo canon (games/books). I think people have just got bit confused about it, personally.

plus, an output of "19500000000 Mt/hr" does seem overpowered enough to be a glassing beam, eg: a beam of energy capable of turning soil particles into glass (I think it was technically a silica something, glass basically)

The beams seen in Reach are probably under a megaton per zap (I've not run the numbers, just my estimate) Halo ODST has a more robust showing, but probably not into more than a couple of megatons per zap. (Again, I'm eyeballing it here.)


That fits for a 'tacnuke' equivalent, or heavy fire support for ground ops, but there is no way you could glass a world with that.
It would literally take thousands of years.

currently I'm reading through similar confusing numbers, found some extra data on kinetic shielding and ME armour plating, just quoting everything and putting it into understandable numbers before I post

Cool, I don't have the Codex on hand, so that would be very useful.

*Waits patiently*

[Edited on 09.13.2011 2:27 PM PDT]

  • 09.13.2011 2:24 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: Fin5434p

But that information has been contradicted: Halo Reach gives us proof that the Covenant are unable to perform complete glassings, instead they are limited to using it as strategic bombardment. Anton proved his point quite clearly that the Covenant can not destroy a planet or boil away it's oceans and that if they had that sort of power then the UNSC would instantly loose every space battle. Anton also calculated that it would take a fleet of 2000 ships 30 years to glass a planet.

  • 09.13.2011 2:25 PM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.


Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: Fin5434p

But that information has been contradicted: Halo Reach gives us proof that the Covenant are unable to perform complete glassings, instead they are limited to using it as strategic bombardment. Anton proved his point quite clearly that the Covenant can not destroy a planet or boil away it's oceans and that if they had that sort of power then the UNSC would instantly loose every space battle. Anton also calculated that it would take a fleet of 2000 ships 30 years to glass a planet.


No, the datapads give us the speculations of some random AIs (of unknown origin, or competancy, wth a god complex to boot).
Compelling evidence this is not.
The incident described in the book is directly seen taking place by the main character, the Chief, and is far more compelling evidence than some uninformed speculation that the game itself later contradicts.

  • 09.13.2011 2:31 PM PDT

I'll just put this in here.

A: It's not a glassing beam, it's called an energy projector.

B: And you all -blam!- about Star Wars numbers?

C: Sorry friend, but you don't get to say what has more canon standing or is more compelling. Didn't the power of a MAC also get reduced? What I mean is, you can't say the Datapads are shoddy information over Chief's eyes.

[Edited on 09.13.2011 2:45 PM PDT]

  • 09.13.2011 2:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Fin5434p

Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: Fin5434p

But that information has been contradicted: Halo Reach gives us proof that the Covenant are unable to perform complete glassings, instead they are limited to using it as strategic bombardment. Anton proved his point quite clearly that the Covenant can not destroy a planet or boil away it's oceans and that if they had that sort of power then the UNSC would instantly loose every space battle. Anton also calculated that it would take a fleet of 2000 ships 30 years to glass a planet.


No, the datapads give us the speculations of some random AIs (of unknown origin, or competancy, wth a god complex to boot).
Compelling evidence this is not.
The incident described in the book is directly seen taking place by the main character, the Chief, and is far more compelling evidence than some uninformed speculation that the game itself later contradicts.


The AI were also calculating if the covenant turned the entire surface to a glass/molten state, which is not what they did at Jericho VII. There seems to be a whole congregation of "Data Pad Followers" that overlook this and just say "The Covenant can't glass a planet" even though they don't actually "glass" it.

  • 09.13.2011 2:45 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: Fin5434p

Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: Fin5434p

But that information has been contradicted: Halo Reach gives us proof that the Covenant are unable to perform complete glassings, instead they are limited to using it as strategic bombardment. Anton proved his point quite clearly that the Covenant can not destroy a planet or boil away it's oceans and that if they had that sort of power then the UNSC would instantly loose every space battle. Anton also calculated that it would take a fleet of 2000 ships 30 years to glass a planet.


No, the datapads give us the speculations of some random AIs (of unknown origin, or competancy, wth a god complex to boot).
Compelling evidence this is not.
The incident described in the book is directly seen taking place by the main character, the Chief, and is far more compelling evidence than some uninformed speculation that the game itself later contradicts.


The AI were also calculating if the covenant turned the entire surface to a glass/molten state, which is not what they did at Jericho VII. There seems to be a whole congregation of "Data Pad Followers" that overlook this and just say "The Covenant can't glass a planet" even though they don't actually "glass" it.


And there is a whole "glassing" followers who claim that the Covenant can and did do that, and use energy projectors as a win-all in Vs topics.

  • 09.13.2011 2:47 PM PDT
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That's why i'm in the middle.

The Covenant can't actually "glass" a planet
but
The AIs were taking the matter too literally and were not calculating for what the Covenant actually do.

  • 09.13.2011 2:49 PM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I'll just put this in here.

A: It's not a glassing beam, it's called an energy projector.


I've been referring to the ventrally-mounted weapon that seems t come from the main grav lift area, not the dorsally mounted weapon on Assault carriers/similar ships. That's what I meant by the ecavation beam/'glassing beam' referance.
Is that what everyone else meant?
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

B: And you all -blam!- about Star Wars numbers?

Hope that wasn't directed at me, I haven't mentioned Star Wars at all here.

C: Sorry friend, but you don't get to say what has more canon standing or is more compelling. Didn't the power of a MAC also get reduced?

I absolutely can say it is more compelling.
I find it more compelling proof.
Why?
Because the datapad entry is the speculation of a character while the other event is the narrator describing what the chief sees.
Like people, characters can be wrong, the narator's description isn't able to be considered as "character's simply mistaken". So holds more weight for me.

As to the MAC, no idea, what bit mentions it?

  • 09.13.2011 2:52 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: Fin5434p

Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: Fin5434p

But that information has been contradicted: Halo Reach gives us proof that the Covenant are unable to perform complete glassings, instead they are limited to using it as strategic bombardment. Anton proved his point quite clearly that the Covenant can not destroy a planet or boil away it's oceans and that if they had that sort of power then the UNSC would instantly loose every space battle. Anton also calculated that it would take a fleet of 2000 ships 30 years to glass a planet.


No, the datapads give us the speculations of some random AIs (of unknown origin, or competancy, wth a god complex to boot).
Compelling evidence this is not.
The incident described in the book is directly seen taking place by the main character, the Chief, and is far more compelling evidence than some uninformed speculation that the game itself later contradicts.

Funny enough, in Anton's great big thread he discusses why the AI are right and there is also the fact that Dr. Halsey agrees with the AI (she didn't talk to them, just drew the same conclusion). The AI also performed a great deal of calculations. The fact is, glassing was retconned.

  • 09.13.2011 2:54 PM PDT
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But nobody acknowledges the events at Jerich VII were =/= to the Data Pad figures. The Covenant did not turn Jericho's surface to glass/molten state, so I don't see a contradiction here.

  • 09.13.2011 2:58 PM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
And there is a whole "glassing" followers who claim that the Covenant can and did do that, and use energy projectors as a win-all in Vs topics.


It's there in black and white.


Plus the latest DLC from 343's contractor shows us Reach after the battle, and half it's surface is ablaze, even if it is low-res because it's the background the intent seems fairly unambiguous.

Going by the datapads alone (ignoring that the blasts in New Alexandria appear to cover a far greater area than a mere acre, and in less than 15 seconds to boot) then this would be impossible for the Covenant to actually achieve.


EDIT:

Posted by: Xd00999
Funny enough, in Anton's great big thread he discusses why the AI are right and there is also the fact that Dr. Halsey agrees with the AI (she didn't talk to them, just drew the same conclusion). The AI also performed a great deal of calculations. The fact is, glassing was retconned.


I've read it, I just don't agree with him on that particular assesment.

[Edited on 09.13.2011 3:01 PM PDT]

  • 09.13.2011 2:58 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

@XD: People who are not a member of Archive cannot see it.

  • 09.13.2011 3:01 PM PDT
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I think those moments in New Alexandria would out-canon the Data Pads. Also, if you wait around at the MAC canon and don't fire it, the Covenant ship does a lot of damage to an area much larger than an acre.

  • 09.13.2011 3:02 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: anton1792
@XD: People who are not a member of Archive cannot see it.

But Fin is a member. He posted there. He can see it.

  • 09.13.2011 3:06 PM PDT
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What exactly is the Archive?

  • 09.13.2011 3:07 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal
I think those moments in New Alexandria would out-canon the Data Pads. Also, if you wait around at the MAC canon and don't fire it, the Covenant ship does a lot of damage to an area much larger than an acre.


Um... Two things.

A: In new Alexandria there was still ruins/ground was uneven. If it was glassed completely it would be all even.
B: In PoA, if the ship activates the energy projector, does it not instantly revert to last checkpoint and you don't see what happens?

  • 09.13.2011 3:07 PM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.


Posted by: superiorarsenal
I think those moments in New Alexandria would out-canon the Data Pads. Also, if you wait around at the MAC canon and don't fire it, the Covenant ship does a lot of damage to an area much larger than an acre.


Id prefer not to "throw out" any canon material at all, the easiest rationalisation is that the datapad AI is simply mistaken.

To everybody: PLEASE NOTE I do think the Jericho VII glassing event is in the VERY HIGH END of depicted Covenant firepower, it is perfectly reasonable to argue lower interpretations, It would be PREFFERABLE to do this without throwing out observed events, however.

  • 09.13.2011 3:08 PM PDT
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It activated the projector and stuff happened for me. It most definately did not immediatly revert to the last checkpoint.

  • 09.13.2011 3:09 PM PDT