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This topic has moved here: Subject: Humanity, Forerunners...Cryptum Spoilers Inside
  • Subject: Humanity, Forerunners...Cryptum Spoilers Inside
Subject: Humanity, Forerunners...Cryptum Spoilers Inside

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
You made a stupid claim, not our fault.


I made a subjective claim. Stop getting so defensive.


Or you could go, you aren't going to fit in hear.

  • 08.03.2011 9:43 PM PDT

Posted by: Baph117
This is an incredible step forward to being able to cure Downss sybndonre mn humans bineg.s

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
You made a stupid claim, not our fault.


I made a subjective claim. Stop getting so defensive.


Or you could go, you aren't going to fit in hear.


Why, because I don't like the Star Wars-esque over-extension of the Halo universe, or because I'm not enough of a fanboy?

  • 08.03.2011 9:46 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
You made a stupid claim, not our fault.


I made a subjective claim. Stop getting so defensive.


Or you could go, you aren't going to fit in hear.


Why, because I don't like the Star Wars-esque over-extension of the Halo universe, or because I'm not enough of a fanboy?


Because you make claims when you're in no position to. You haven;t read Cryptum and have no awareness of it's context, but still call it stupid. Even those who despise Reach understand everything about it.

  • 08.03.2011 9:47 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Unclear, but since the Forerunners can imprint genetic codes and memories in anybody, it's likely something very trippy. We may find out in the next two books in the Forerunner trilogy.


I still don't understand the point of 'devolving' (The entire concept of 'devolution' is kind of ridiculous, to me) humanity when they could have just stuck us on an isolated planet to rot.
That's why he told you to read the book, so he wouldn't have to hold your hand and explain it all to you when the book does that itself.

Deevolution is seen as their ultimate form of punishment, and stops the races they defeat from rising up against them again and maintaining their peace in the galaxy.

Completely off topic: Cobra if you keep fighting these ridiculous fights against ridiculous people you're going to get burnt out real fast.


I took deevolution to be more of a social deconstruction rather then a biological one, really. Rather then actually making us dumber and ape like, I thought they destroyed everything erased memories, wiped out our records, and left us to rot on earth. Not necessarily physically de-evolving us.

[Edited on 08.03.2011 9:49 PM PDT]

  • 08.03.2011 9:48 PM PDT

Posted by: Baph117
This is an incredible step forward to being able to cure Downss sybndonre mn humans bineg.s

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Because you make claims when you're in no position to. You haven;t read Cryptum and have no awareness of it's context, but still call it stupid. Even those who despise Reach understand everything about it.


I didn't call Cryptum stupid. What I have been trying to say is that the over extension of the Halo universe is frivolous and superfluous. I was interested in the origin stories about Spartans and aspects pertaining to the Human-Covenant war because they actually tied into the story, and had some relevance, but all this is just stretching so far beyond that. They could've just left the Forerunners as a vague super-race from before humanity's time fighting an unconquerable parasitic race and everything would still fit in nicely, and the universe wouldn't have devolved into this mess of over-extension. I mean, this Forerunner backstory seems to be more of a footnote that's been tacked on than anything else, which also changes the entire way the races of the Halo universe should be perceived. Such a grand contrast between its frivolity and its consequences just make it seem to share the qualities of what I despise about a lot of fan-fiction: a lack of a sense of dramatic scale.

That's what I've been trying to say.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
I took deevolution to be more of a social deconstruction rather then a biological one, really. Rather then actually making us dumber and ape like, I thought they destroyed everything erased memories, wiped out our records, and left us to rot on earth. Not necessarily physically de-evolving us.


That makes much more sense than actually biologically evolving humanity into inferior life-forms. Though I wouldn't think they'd really bother to erase their memories, and would probably more likely just take a generation of children, raise them into adulthood and put them on Earth without any real education. But, as I've said before, and probably need to keep saying to avoid people thinking they're somehow calling me out on my self-admitted ignorance, I haven't bothered to keep up with the Forerunner backstory, so they very well could do. However, it seems to me that it would be nearly impossible to wipe their memories clear of their skills and knowledge to the point where they're nothing more than cave men without wiping other important skills, like remembering to breathe. :P

[Edited on 08.03.2011 10:07 PM PDT]

  • 08.03.2011 10:03 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Because you make claims when you're in no position to. You haven;t read Cryptum and have no awareness of it's context, but still call it stupid. Even those who despise Reach understand everything about it.


I didn't call Cryptum stupid. What I have been trying to say is that the over extension of the Halo universe is frivolous and superfluous. I was interested in the origin stories about Spartans and aspects pertaining to the Human-Covenant war because they actually tied into the story, and had some relevance, but all this is just stretching so far beyond that. They could've just left the Forerunners as a vague super-race from before humanity's time fighting an unconquerable parasitic race and everything would still fit in nicely, and the universe wouldn't have devolved into this mess of over-extension. I mean, this Forerunner backstory seems to be more of a footnote that's been tacked on than anything else, which also changes the entire way the races of the Halo universe should be perceived. Such a grand contrast between its frivolity and its consequences just make it seem to share the qualities of what I despise about a lot of fan-fiction: a lack of a sense of dramatic scale.


Considering the Forerunners are still around and are going to make a big impact in the new trilogy, it's best we understand their motives. Fans have been clamoring for details on the Forerunners since the beginning and we are being obliged. And I'm sorry, just because you don't understand the significance of Forerunner lore doesn't make it stupid. May not be your cup of tea, but stupid? LOL.

  • 08.03.2011 10:09 PM PDT

Posted by: Baph117
This is an incredible step forward to being able to cure Downss sybndonre mn humans bineg.s

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Considering the Forerunners are still around and are going to make a big impact in the new trilogy, it's best we understand their motives. Fans have been clamoring for details on the Forerunners since the beginning and we are being obliged. And I'm sorry, just because you don't understand the significance of Forerunner lore doesn't make it stupid. May not be your cup of tea, but stupid? LOL.


So maybe they should explain their motives in the context of the new trilogy? This really comes back to the matter of dramatic scale I was talking about before. Revealing universe-changing details in a massive, AAA game which continues the canon of the universe from the perspective of the main character = a potentially dramatic and stirring thing. Revealing those details in a book about the history of the Forerunners with no apparent relevance to the main story arc(s) of the universe to those who haven't already read them = a pointless waste of changing the entire universe. It could have come as a dramatic revelation, but now? What, were they trying to avoid having to go into detail in the narrative in the game?

Like I said before, this whole thing seems to lack any sense of scale, in terms of drama.

  • 08.03.2011 10:22 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Considering the Forerunners are still around and are going to make a big impact in the new trilogy, it's best we understand their motives. Fans have been clamoring for details on the Forerunners since the beginning and we are being obliged. And I'm sorry, just because you don't understand the significance of Forerunner lore doesn't make it stupid. May not be your cup of tea, but stupid? LOL.


So maybe they should explain their motives in the context of the new trilogy? This really comes back to the matter of dramatic scale I was talking about before. Revealing universe-changing details in a massive, AAA game which continues the canon of the universe from the perspective of the main character = a potentially dramatic and stirring thing. Revealing those details in a book about the history of the Forerunners with no apparent relevance to the main story arc(s) of the universe to those who haven't already read them = a pointless waste of changing the entire universe. It could have come as a dramatic revelation, but now? What, were they trying to avoid having to go into detail in the narrative in the game?

Like I said before, this whole thing seems to lack any sense of scale, in terms of drama.


There are still two books left in the Forerunner trilogy, plenty of room for this dramatic scale. But since you won;t read, you'll never see it.

  • 08.03.2011 10:27 PM PDT

Posted by: Baph117
This is an incredible step forward to being able to cure Downss sybndonre mn humans bineg.s

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
There are still two books left in the Forerunner trilogy, plenty of room for this dramatic scale. But since you won;t read, you'll never see it.


You appear to have misinterpreted what I said completely.

  • 08.03.2011 10:29 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

So what are you saying? The next books are about the Forerunner-Flood War. The first book alone has already raised many questions that are universe changing.

  • 08.03.2011 10:31 PM PDT

"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit,
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it."
-Omar Khayyám-

Besides reading Cryptum, you could read the terminals in Halo 3. It briefly touches upon the last couple of years of contact between Didact and his wife, the Librarian.

I have read Cryptum and I recommend it. I am a huge fan of Sci-Fi and you come to read it in the form of a fan of sci-fi it is a really good read but I highly recommend to have a basic background in Forerunner history first to understand the direction and explanations.

  • 08.03.2011 10:33 PM PDT

Posted by: Baph117
This is an incredible step forward to being able to cure Downss sybndonre mn humans bineg.s

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
So what are you saying? The next books are about the Forerunner-Flood War. The first book alone has already raised many questions that are universe changing.


I said that it seems unnecessary to change the entire universe just for the sake of a book. You told me that the details of these books will be important to understand the motives and the context of the Forerunner's actions in the upcoming trilogy, so I said that I believed it was a sign of a lack of an ability to properly prioritise their media and the unwillingness to concentrate on these vitally important details within the context of the actual trilogy. They're probably just saving room in Halo 4 for shooting as much stuff as possible. :|

I'm saying that they shouldn't be changing the universe so dramatically with these books, and that this kind of thing should be left to the game to reveal in some dramatic cut-scene.

Posted by: Tookurdignity
Besides reading Cryptum, you could read the terminals in Halo 3. It briefly touches upon the last couple of years of contact between Didact and his wife, the Librarian.


Yes, I have. I followed the Halo canon fairly closely until around the time Legends was released.

[Edited on 08.03.2011 10:40 PM PDT]

  • 08.03.2011 10:36 PM PDT

I wake up to find myself
After all these years
And where all the time has gone
Still seems so unclear

What he's saying is, the Universe should be changed and made to be "good" through the games. Not through books. Which is something I completely understand. He wasn't even talking about the books as if they're important, he's saying they shouldn't be important to the "main" story. (The games.)

Again, understandable. But the thing is, the original books were released prior and along-side the games. They're there for fans who want more to have more of the story. They wanted the books to give specifics into the story they couldn't/didn't have time to include in the games.

As far as I can tell, the "main" books are to give contrast and backstory to a game that's mostly about shooting aliens over and over "because they're there."

(Edit: I should've waited 5 more seconds so you could explain it yourself.)

[Edited on 08.03.2011 10:38 PM PDT]

  • 08.03.2011 10:36 PM PDT
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias


Posted by: Seggi31
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
So what are you saying? The next books are about the Forerunner-Flood War. The first book alone has already raised many questions that are universe changing.


I said that it seems unnecessary to change the entire universe just for the sake of a book. You told me that the details of these books will be important to understand the motives and the context of the Forerunner's actions in the upcoming trilogy, so I said that I believed it was a sign of a lack of an ability to properly prioritise their media and the unwillingness to concentrate on these vitally important details within the context of the actual trilogy. They're probably just saving room in Halo 4 for shooting as much stuff as possible. :|

I'm saying that they shouldn't be changing the universe so dramatically with these books, and that this kind of thing should be left to the game to reveal in some dramatic cut-scene.


My answer to you

Anyway, books are backbone of expanding the universe, it's absolutely essential for any Halo fans that want to know more about Halo universe. I don't think you can explain ENTIRE universe with just games...

  • 08.03.2011 10:40 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Seggi31
I'm saying that they shouldn't be changing the universe so dramatically with these books, and that this kind of thing should be left to the game to reveal in some dramatic cut-scene.


Frank O'Conner said that everything in Halo will now be connected. Why is it so bad that the books and games now fit together and compliment each other? Crpytum set the stage and ave us background knowledge on the Forerunners, their war with Humanity, the Precursors Mantle, and sets the stage for the Forerunner-Flood War. The next book, Primoridum, is about two humans form Crpytum, Chakas and Riser, on a war-torn Halo and in it they must face their destiny. The next book will conclude this story arc with the conclusion of the Forerunner-Flood War.

The Terminals in Halo: CEA are there to set the stage for Halo 4 by providing backstory for various things and characters like 343 Guilty Spark.

Then we have Halo 4, 5, and 6. This is Chief's quest. 343 Industries has this grand story set up and it all comes together in the new trilogy. You say them making a book about Forerunners shows their inability to prioritize their story. Quite the opposite it seems.

  • 08.03.2011 10:45 PM PDT

Posted by: Baph117
This is an incredible step forward to being able to cure Downss sybndonre mn humans bineg.s

Posted by: Ageless Durandal
What he's saying is, the Universe should be changed and made to be "good" through the games. Not through books. Which is something I completely understand. He wasn't even talking about the books as if they're important, he's saying they shouldn't be important to the "main" story. (The games.)

Again, understandable. But the thing is, the original books were released prior and along-side the games. They're there for fans who want more to have more of the story. They wanted the books to give specifics into the story they couldn't/didn't have time to include in the games.

As far as I can tell, the "main" books are to give contrast and backstory to a game that's mostly about shooting aliens over and over "because they're there."

(Edit: I should've waited 5 more seconds so you could explain it yourself.)


Oh, I do believe that the books should be allowed to be important to the canon, but not to the extent where they establish such massive, universe changing details more than a year before we can even see it in the game. The games should be able to have a cohesive back-story without the use of other media. Using other media to complement this is perfectly understandable, but when that media seems to be completely irrelevant to the events of the games until you see it, there's an issue. I certainly do believe that the books are important, but I think the medium which has established this universe and continues to be its focal point should take precedence.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Seggi31
I'm saying that they shouldn't be changing the universe so dramatically with these books, and that this kind of thing should be left to the game to reveal in some dramatic cut-scene.


Frank O'Conner said that everything in Halo will now be connected. Why is it so bad that the books and games now fit together and compliment each other? Crpytum set the stage and ave us background knowledge on the Forerunners, their war with Humanity, the Precursors Mantle, and sets the stage for the Forerunner-Flood War. The next book, Primoridum, is about two humans form Crpytum, Chakas and Riser, on a war-torn Halo and in it they must face their destiny. The next book will conclude this story arc with the conclusion of the Forerunner-Flood War.

The Terminals in Halo: CEA are there to set the stage for Halo 4 by providing backstory for various things and characters like 343 Guilty Spark.

Then we have Halo 4, 5, and 6. This is Chief's quest. 343 Industries has this grand story set up and it all comes together in the new trilogy. You say them making a book about Forerunners shows their inability to prioritize their story. Quite the opposite it seems.


I'm not saying continuity is a bad thing. I think you may have misinterpreted what I said again. What I believe to be poor prioritisation isn't that they have established continuity with the games and books (Though, honestly, that should be a given for any franchise as large as this).

Ok, reiteration time:

My issue isn't with the books existing and giving information on backstory. My issue is with the books breaking such massively revelatory news. Simply hinting at it would be an excellent way to establish continuity with the games and the books, and make those who followed the books as well appreciate the revelation in the games that much more, while not otherwise devaluing it. The books should be important, certainly, but the focal point is the games. It should all come back to the games.

I'll use an analogy to better explain what I mean. Have you ever watched the reboot series of Doctor Who? Well, it's like if the writers of Doctor Who decided to write the series' finale into the second and third episodes, expecting everyone to still be interested for the remaining ten or so. I mean, obviously it's still a popular franchise with a very dedicated fanbase, so people will still watch it, and probably enjoy it, too, but they'll have ruined a great opportunity to show that they can master dramatic mystery for the benefit of the audience.

Or, even more appropriately, if they wrote the series' finale into the second or third episode of a series of Torchwood.

[Edited on 08.03.2011 10:59 PM PDT]

  • 08.03.2011 10:47 PM PDT

I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
--Ralph Ellison

Posted by: Seggi31
I'm saying that they shouldn't be changing the universe so dramatically with these books, and that this kind of thing should be left to the game to reveal in some dramatic cut-scene.


It doesn't even change the universe dramatically because we had no knowledge of this time in the universe (except for the little bit from the terminals). All Cryptum does is help to extend the universe. If you're only interested in certain aspects of the universe, I hardly think your opinion has any merit about the other stuff.

What if I only care about the Forerunner side of it? Can I say that I think Ghosts of Onyx is an over-extension of the universe because it talks about SIIIs on a whole new planet? What about Contact Harvest? Why didn't they just leave that a mystery instead of explaining how it happened?

I mean, come on... Read Cryptum or stop criticizing it. Do you tell your friends after they tell that a movie you haven't seen is good that you think it's stupid?

  • 08.03.2011 10:53 PM PDT

I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
--Ralph Ellison

Posted by: Seggi31
Oh, I do believe that the books should be allowed to be important to the canon, but not to the extent where they establish such massive, universe changing details more than a year before we can even see it in the game. The games should be able to have a cohesive back-story without the use of other media.


And if you paid attention to things you'd know that Frank O'Connor has said multiple times that you won't have to played the previous games or read the books to understand Halo 4. Again, I don't see what you're complaining about here.

  • 08.03.2011 10:55 PM PDT

I wake up to find myself
After all these years
And where all the time has gone
Still seems so unclear

If you want to get technical, Cryptum is just expanding the Terminal stories from Halo 3. The story of how the Forerunners failed to stop the Flood, setting up the entire Halo universe. (Also, to a lesser extent, expanding the Isis ARG.)

The Forerunner books didn't just "pop" into existence, everything that was setup in the book wasn't "Universe" changing, most of it I inferred from reading the Terminals. They just clarified some points. So really, you're arguing over nothing as the book wasn't that big of a leap.

-Edit-
So the point you're trying to make is that revealing the "grand" secrets of the Forerunners ruins the games? Or am I misinterpreting your meaning yet again?

I think you're misunderstanding what's going on with the Halo story. Especially if you think that "big" secret is how/why the Forerunners had to activate the Array.

I'll make my own DW analogy.
Spoilers~!

In this season, they revealed that River Song is actually Melody Pond. Amy and Rory's half-time lord baby from the future. And they revealed that half way through the season. Does that make you want to stop watching it? You'll never find out that the Astronaut is actually River as a child. And that she was imprisoned because she was the one who killed the Doctor. Again, Spoilers~!

Now, I don't know about you. But I want to watch that happen. I want to know allll the little details about it. I can infer all I want, but it won't stop me wanting to confirm it.

Basically, it's like you reading that online and saying it's dumb that they don't save that for the end of the series. Especially since you have no context and no way of knowing if actually makes the Universe "less" grand on the gaming scale.

My point seems to be that the book doesn't "change" anything. It just adds context. If you don't want the games "ruined" then I don't see why you're arguing about this at all. Hell, I don't see why you started the thread at all if you didn't want to ruin the games for you. I swear, it seems like you're a fat kid asking for cake, but then complains about being fat when someone brings you the cake.

[Edited on 08.03.2011 11:35 PM PDT]

  • 08.03.2011 10:55 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Seggi31
Or, even more appropriately, if they wrote the series' finale into the second or third episode of a series of Torchwood.


The Forerunner trilogy merely shows the motivations of the Forerunners and their history shortly before the Forerunner-Flood War. So if the Forerunners are jerks in the new Halo trilogy, it has more context at first, but it would probably be explain in-game anyway.

It sets up the new Halo trilogy at most, not spoil every detail.

  • 08.03.2011 11:21 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: Seggi31
Oh, I do believe that the books should be allowed to be important to the canon, but not to the extent where they establish such massive, universe changing details more than a year before we can even see it in the game. The games should be able to have a cohesive back-story without the use of other media. Using other media to complement this is perfectly understandable, but when that media seems to be completely irrelevant to the events of the games until you see it, there's an issue. I certainly do believe that the books are important, but I think the medium which has established this universe and continues to be its focal point should take precedence.
I do need to stop you there. The Halo Universe has been much more about a narrow focus on humanity's survival during first contact; it's more an alternate explanation to some fundamental questions which everyone asks at one point in time (and which religions try to answer). In that respect, it was inevitable that they expand beyond the extremely narrow scope of the games. That's where the books come in.

The fact of the matter is that currently books or t.v. shows/movies are really the only appropriate means to expand the more in depth areas of video game universes. I know you stated that this is the role cut-scenes serve in games, but given the nature of Halo, cut-scenes cannot be relied upon to convey that information. Simply put, while other genres of video games (namely RPGs) do a fairly good job of advancing very intricate stories over the course of their games, the fact remains that they often take a very long time to complete. FPSs on the other end do not have that luxury and there has never been one which would be able to expand upon a story as intricate as Halo's as well as, or better than, a book.

That being said, really, read the book. I tend not to try to disagree over opinions, but the fact remains that yours are entirely unsubstantiated. You don't have a basis on which to rest your claims about good and bad; successful and unsuccessful, without giving the very thing you criticize its due diligence.

  • 08.03.2011 11:38 PM PDT

"I'm afraid of the man I'll become if I lay my life down for the people I don't even care for"

The Halo Lore is so fun!

OT: Yeah, Humans found crashed ships with some sort of organic powder, experimented on their pets, they took on attractive mutations, San Shyum liked them too.

After centuries of doing this to the pets weirdass things started growing out of them and they started to cannibalism causing un natural births and abortions (forgot why). Then they infected Human. Then the 'disease' could infect human to human then I think Human to Shy Shyum. Probably got those last ones wrong.

But they found a cure. yay!

  • 08.03.2011 11:53 PM PDT
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You guys I don't know how you managed to put up with this troll. Just ignore him an be on your merry way enjoying life. I love the Halo stories, fanfiction or not. They are stories and if told right they are great stories. If you don't like it then fine but don't redicule others because they are not like you. Diversity. Not everyone thinks and acts like you.
I don't like reading books but I like reading the wiki and this story is pretty good. Makes the forerunners look like a bunch of -blam!-s though. And did it state that the forerunners actually fought against the pre cursors?

  • 08.04.2011 2:32 AM PDT

Riverside23: For all the women of the group, if you've got a real man at least let him have his big piece of chicken.

WhtButterflyLiz: lol. Bring home bigger chikkinz, then, real man!!!

DEATHPIMP72: *throws pterodactyl on table*
Suck it JoeSki!!!

Definitely pick up Cryptum. Forerunner, humans, Prophets, and Flood are all covered in depth and in a fascinating way.

  • 08.04.2011 5:48 AM PDT
Subject: Humanity had been at war with the Forerunners?

yea the fall of reach is an awesome book its really cool to see how the spartans came into bieng and how master chief came around

  • 08.13.2011 6:56 PM PDT