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This topic has moved here: Subject: Project: Balance (warning, very long)
  • Subject: Project: Balance (warning, very long)
Subject: Project: Balance (warning, very long)
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

I like herring sandwiches!
stinkin' thinkin'

I don't think spawning with any kind of overshield or invincibility is needed. The best way to stop a team spawn killing you is to get the upper hand in the first place, dead players cannot spawn kill you.

  • 03.21.2006 3:57 AM PDT

Here's the issue with variety. Why add one extra variation when you can add two? Or three? If you're going to add secondary fire to weapons, why not tertiary too? Or, why add one different kind of melee when you can add a scale of 3 different types? Why should we be using two grenade types, why not four? Where do you draw the line? You can add extra dimensions to the gameplay all day long, but at what point do useful and simple additions become an exercise in feature-cramming? The simplicity of Halo is a huge part of what makes it what it is. Learn it in a minute, yet a year later you are still mastering it. In my opinion you can't simply argue FOR alternate fire by stating, 'it's only a button press, what's complex about that'? You could have many different features accessed by button presses but it is not the ease of use which I see as a problem, it is the cluttering of the gameplay. The more layers or dimensions of gameplay you add, the further away you are from the magic formula which should underpin it all. I would support an alternate fire system if there was no dual-wielding, for example. But the more layers you add the more convoluted it becomes.

  • 03.21.2006 4:02 AM PDT
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Rant Off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You said you'd take criticism so here it is. Please note that I do not hate you. These are all just non-candy coated frank issues that I had with your ideas. I'm sure you are a wonderful person. Also please forgive the sarcasm. I come by it quite naturally, and I'm currently cranky.

Now let's get to the good stuff!

Too complicated...some decent ideas, but for the most part these are all "wouldn't this be cool" ideas and ideas for solving non-existant issues.

Supply visibilty adds nothing of value to the game. All it would do is add unneccessary clutter and prevent surprise when somebody pulls out a sword or rocket launcher. Sounds like somebody is merely tired of being owned by someone that has a good secondary weapon.

How is hiding a sword unfair or out of balance? It is merely good strategy (something which a lot of your ideas would seem to counteract).

Supply dropping...H2 is fast paced and it is stupid to have to rifle thru the body to pick up grenades and extra ammo. You kill the person you have the choice to pick up their weapons and you automatically pick up nades and xtra ammo. It works great right now...don't try to overcomplicate things.

In first person shooter where you can carry more than one weapon at a time (suffice it to say most) you have to be able to switch quickly between weapons, otherwise if you have the wrong weapon for the range you are screwed. Quit trying to screw with the whole system just so you don't get killed by somebody smart enough to not run around waiving a sword saying "kill me". Do you really want it so that if you have a shotty and a sniper rifle and somebody gets close with duals you won't be able to switch before you are dead? Think thru the whole thing, don't just blanked things cuz you don't like one aspect.

I don't have a huge beef with the Scoped strafing thing, but why would MC necessarily strafe slower while zoomed in?

Yes Auto-Aim and tracking could use some work, but most of the problems from this in regards to balance merely comes from the fact that it's LIVE. Over LAN everybodies' weapons work the same.

To my estimation duals should take exactly twice as long to reload as non-duals. There have to be some downsides to dual wielding...with this and the dual melee idea there would be no point to carry only one dual wieldable gun. Methinks you like all duals game don't you?

Charged melee is a "WOULDN'T IT BE UBER KEWL IF..." idea that has no real merit. Unless it locks on and/or lunges like a sword it would be useless, and if it did it wouldn't be "balanced".

As for weapons changes:
Yes Shotguns currently suck. Surprise tho, this is merely a LIVE issue. They work perfectly fine over LAN. Same goes for BR's...no host issues if LAN. So even trying to "fix" these weapons is useless because they are not teachnically broken. They are just more effected by LIVE that others.

Are people still whining about swords and combos?!?!?!?

I would not mind seeing the PP revamped a bit, but it would just need finessed. Currently in H2 it is only useful as a method of taking shields down. IMHO this is why the charge is faster and tracks better than in H1. As I said I wouldn't mind a little finessing, but the PP is currently a STRATEGY weapon and I don't see a huge problem with it. All weapons have a certain something that they are good at and at least one major drawback. PP is great at taking out shields, and majorly sucks if it is to be used for anything else: Slow ROF, overheating, minuscule damage. All of these would need to be improved A LOT before you could think of taming down it's effectiveness as a shield destroyer. With your suggestions the PP would no longer be the PP and might as well be taken out completely. After all combos are so cheap.....visualize a lot of people rolling their eyes.

Rockets are rockets...kill instantly large radius of splash damage, but slowish moving projectile, limited ammo, kill yourself and/or teammates if to close....does anybody really have a problem with rockets being out of balance?

Yes the Needler does need reworked obviously...it was worthless in H1 as well as H2. It is fun to use, but highly impracticle for any serious use at present time.

Sorry your sword ideas are dumb, dumb, dumb. Taking out the lunge you have an empty rocket launcher as far as damage ability. The Sword has to have at least a little lunge or lock-on or you have to throw it out. As far as the charged melee where you can do a large swing all around you....imagine if you will KOTH Lockout, guy with sword runs into the middle and gets a killtacular with one swing. Yeah, that's much better than the current balance! Keep up the good work!

What you are suggesting for the battle rifle is exactly what everybody complained about that Bungie did to the pistol. There are no real balance issues with the BR!!!!!!! It is weaker than H1's pistol, has a relatively slow ROF, is pretty bad for close range, and good for medium to longish range. The only issues with the BR stem from LIVE issues and combo complainers.

Carbine....does anybody even remotely see a need to dumb down the current Carbine? I don't see anybody racking up huge kill totals with these. These things are pretty much the same as the BR but take more hits to kill with a little higher ROF. As far as the alternate use on it.....That is nothing but an attempt to make fun of Combo users. There would be no practical use for it...nobody is going to flip for a PP that takes longer to charge, uses up tons of ammo from primary fire, and won't let you switch after shot. C'mon you had a good enough education to write all this crap out, you couldn't have possibly thought that that would be a good idea.

Sniper....Neglected the primary problem....range needs to not have a distinct cut off point. Try it on coagulation get the right distance apart and you can zoom in and shoot somebody in the head for a kill, take two steps back and not be able to hit them. That's a problem. Don't mind auto-aim dumbed down a tad, but removing no-scope crosshairs is stupid. crosshairs for all guns show up on MC's HUD. Why would you do this in the first place? Are you getting owned by too many people that no-scope you?

Same goes for Beam Rifle. Jackal vision is another "OMG HOW KEWL WOULD IT BE IF..." idea that would be incredibly imbalanced if implemented as stated. "You mean I can just scope-in and search for white dots rather than actually looking for players that may blend in with the surroundings a bit, UBER AWESOME!!!!!!!". This would take a lot of tweaking to even be remotely workable.

The M6B would be imbalanced as part of a dual...think about it. The magnum had to be dumbed down for the SMG combo from what it was originally and what you are proposing is more powerful than the original magnum by a TON! The ROF would have to be very low or you'd have to decrease damage if you truly wanted a "balanced"system.

If the assault rifle has "some trouble with shield" it could very easily be useless depending on how much. It would have to go thru shield faster than dual SMG's in order to be at usefull. Looks like you are trying to fill a perceived range gap that doesn't really exist. Oh and yeah...we don't need grenad launchers. We have rockets, brute shots, and our arms. Do you really thing it is necessary or will add balance? Definitely an aforementioned "OMG...KEWL!!!!!" idea.

Carriable power-ups "OMG HOW AWESOME WOULD IT BE TO CARRY AN OVERSHIELD AND USE IT RIGHT BEFORE ASSAULTING A BASE!!!!!!!" Great....except for...oh yeah overshields make you temorarily invulnerable while they are charging up. That'd make for some interesting "balanced" firefights that's for sure.

The D-pad switch weapons hand idea is actually good tho!

  • 03.21.2006 5:19 AM PDT
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I have some more simpler ideas.
Take the BR down to 1 shot at a time, with 2/3 the power.
Also, make using the scope for the BR better, make the unzoomed version less accurate.
And, give the BR some bite when it fires, it sounds like stupid.
Replace the SMG with the Assualt Rifle.
Give the SMG or Assualt Rifle a 'down the irons' scope.
Keep the sword lunge. Too many times i go to lunge and the other guy melees me and kills me.
Good idea on eliminating sniper crosshairs.
make the needler awesome again.

Grenades:
Fragmentation grenade
First of all, make it act like a frag grenade. that means it flings fragments everywhere, and you will not be instantly killed if you are by it.
Explain: if you are in a doorway, and a frag in the room explodes, normally you will be unaffected, in real life, some part of that frag will hit you.
another thing, more powerful frags, longer arm time, and the ability to turn it into an impact grenade by holding the L trigger longer.
For plasmas, make them like this: sort of like an EMP, whereas it takes down the shields of many around it, but does not kill them if they already have no shields.
Again, holding the plasma will turn it into a mine, detonated by anyone, but it is marked on your teams HUD, and it appears as a regular plasma just sitting there to the enemy.

  • 03.21.2006 5:42 AM PDT
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please click on the last link on my signature.then read the article.



ps:Dont hate, appreciate!

  • 03.21.2006 7:07 AM PDT

Posted by: germafrican
please click on the last link on my signature.then read the article.



ps:Dont hate, appreciate!


No need, I'll sum it up right here for anyone who is curious:

The game is perfect because Bungie made it.
You have no right to an opinion.

That's about the gist of it. I'd suggest anybody with an allergy to sanctimoniousness should not click that link. :-P

  • 03.21.2006 9:01 AM PDT
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Yea those guys just elaborated and defended me from what i have no time to do :)...(horrible ear infection, and of course Oblivion.)

  • 03.21.2006 11:37 AM PDT

If you want to see the MC die, play Legendary. If you want to see MC finish the fight, play Halo 3. If you want to see MC finish the fight by dieing, why did you waste six years when you could have done it yourself right now?

☼►Popular Fusion - Doing anything, everything, and then some.◄☼

Sexyazzgrunt, you are a very strange person. You don't mind the cheap stategies we have now, but when I bring my 'cooler' stategies to the game, it's like I'm trying to ruin it all over again. I enjoy the sarcasm, but I'm starting to get tired of explaining myself.

The, "OMG, WOULDN'T IT BE COOL IF" is a phrase I tryed to avoid throughout the thread. That's how it turned into a 30,000+ character post. Think about before the H2 was made. Someone in the office had to say, "it would be so cool if you could lunge at someone from six feet away and still hit them. Plus, you'll be able to do twice as much damage!" If anyone from here heard what they said over the forum, it would be like the way some of you are treating me.

Incorporating a balance between, fun and fair is extremely difficult and I hope I've done a good job of that. However, I do admit some of these ideas need a little more explaining (oh, dear god), and I plan to edit my post soon.

  • 03.21.2006 3:42 PM PDT
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Im sorry your correct you have not critized bungie, i would like for some people to read it but you dont have to. My appoligies i was a bit to hasty.but if you have the time just take a look at it.


PS:but that summary was inaccurate of the article i have aa hard time beliving you red it from your post, rythem killer. it is not saying that bungie is perfect(its not!)and its not saying halo2 is perfect (its not either!) but it is aimed at people who critise bungie. when people do that(unless there pro game designers and have made a perfect version of halo or halo 2 that cannot be spoken aganist in any way because it is so perfect) it seems hipacritical and down right
-blam!-y. No hard feelings. Posted by: germafrican
please click on the last link on my signature.then read the article.



ps:Dont hate, appreciate!

No need, I'll sum it up right here for anyone who is curious:

The game is perfect because Bungie made it.
You have no right to an opinion.

That's about the gist of it. I'd suggest anybody with an allergy to sanctimoniousness should not click that link. :-P
?? 0_o ok maby the title is overzelous but that is not what it is about!


[Edited on 3/21/2006]

  • 03.21.2006 4:29 PM PDT
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sanctimoniousness (nice vocab!)

  • 03.21.2006 4:37 PM PDT
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Fair enough. I know you put a lot of time and work into this. Heck I wasted an hour or two on my reply.

I don't really see that there are that there are currently any "cheap" strategies in the game. And don't mind some of your "cooler" ones, but just wanted to point out that you can't say "completely balanced, take out all the cheap stuff, and make my own". Nobody is going to be 100% satisfied with everything whether your ideas or bungie's.

"Cheap" does not mean necessarily that something is out of balance.

Anyway, yes I am a strange person. Thanks for noticing.

  • 03.21.2006 5:04 PM PDT

Violence is just action until somebody dies.

OH MY LORD!

Are you guys INSANE??? Bungie isn't going to read THIS!!! It's far too specific! You guys actually gnawed it down to the last mathematical variable as if we were designing a custom paper RPG system!!! As soon as Bungie sees this crap, they'll look at all the advanced digits and made-up terms and just LAUGH! Do you guys realize how regularly they make fun of people like that, who think they have personal control of the game's coding and development?? They do it all the time!! This is inconceivable! This is so specific that it'd be impossible to have everyone in this fanclub to come to a unanimous agreement on it! You guys are signing your own death warrants! This is crazy! You're balling up all the fruits of your labor and tossing it into the flames! It's not like a Bungie official is going to read that and be like, "Hmm, myes, so Plasma Pistol fatality has to be two then, ey? Mm, myes, I see..." --IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN! If we know what's good for us then we'll keep things simple and general like I have in my posts! Don't you understand how much more likely it is to be listened to if we just say 'Balance the Game, Please' instead of giving them all this role-playing garble?? Seriously. Please, guys. You HAVE to reconsider this. I think we're seriously going about it the wrong way. BIG time.

  • 05.18.2006 2:20 PM PDT

I'm too old to have a signature.

bleh i dont know... to confusing, too much... i liek it all the way it is.

  • 05.18.2006 2:29 PM PDT
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I think the sword lunge should be left in, just add battery power and maybe shorten the lunge a bit. Right now it's one of the most powerful and sought-after weapons just because of it's unlimited supply, which enables people to simply camp in one area with the sword for the whole game. If it had a limited kill count players would be forced to go after it more, and it would change hands a lot more often. If it changed hands more, it would balance things out, the player who is best with the sword would be most effective with it and not just have it the whole game.

  • 05.18.2006 2:54 PM PDT

Once a SPARTAN, always a SPARTAN

I was born in a Covenent Cruser 15 years ago.
My father shot down banshees for a living.

Life is like a blind grunt and a bag of plasma grenades

XBL: RightfulSnake

You need to remember that Halo is not supposed to be a realistic game, It set in the fickin future, and I know from experence that some of the things you mention wouldn't be fun, maybe to you, but I like the semi-arcade style play. Everyone can play easly then, If Bungie put everything you wanted, I'm sure that even you wouldn't like all the changes

  • 05.18.2006 3:14 PM PDT
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I think that everybody reading this needs to realize that no matter what you can think of to tweak the game with or whatever, Realize that the guys from bungie do what they do Because they know its the best thing to do. whatever comes into your fat head.. they've already thought of and decided that that wouldn't work. all i know is that the guys at bungie have made two really really good games already, and whatever they make for there third installment will be just as good.

so lets just leave the game planning to the proffesionals

The game is perfect the way it is
besides the sword (i really hate that mother F***er)

[Edited on 5/18/2006]

  • 05.18.2006 3:32 PM PDT
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You had alot of great ideas there, but one thing...

Auto-Aim is not the bullet actually turning to the target, if they wanted that to happen, they would change the projectile's properties, not the weapon's HUD properties.

EX. Plasma Pistol and Needler have homing checked, and the strength of homing is set.
Battle Rifle, does not have homing, it just has a slight deviation (right word) and slight auto-aim...
In this case the deviation is the movement around that moves your screen to fit the reticle onto the target, so that it isn't turning Red on the wall...auto-aim is the actual Auto-Aiming, if you put on 360 auto-aim, and left the deviation normal, then you can not even look at the target and the bullets would go straight to where the AutoAim would have been...
It's 2 things working together, it's an illusion.
Confusing I know.

  • 05.18.2006 3:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: scythe m0nkey
I think that everybody reading this needs to realize that no matter what you can think of to tweak the game with or whatever, Realize that the guys from bungie do what they do Because they know its the best thing to do. whatever comes into your fat head.. they've already thought of and decided that that wouldn't work. all i know is that the guys at bungie have made two really really good games already, and there not about to F@#K up now

so lets just leave the game planning to the proffesionals


what happens if they've been listening to us all along?
and they give us little poo squirts of game footage, and all the theorists in here write the stories for Bungie?

Maybe you guys are the writers... hmm?

After all, there were rumors floating around saying that Cortana will be rampant, and there will be a darker storyline, and look what exactly happened in the trailer?

  • 05.18.2006 3:36 PM PDT
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Yeeeaaaaaah

I dont think so

  • 05.18.2006 3:41 PM PDT
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my only question is what are the button combos going to be for 360 controllers....the button layout is a bit different and halo3 will only be out on xbox 360 not on the origional xbox

  • 05.18.2006 3:45 PM PDT
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Nice ideas bansheeownz keep up the good work.

  • 05.18.2006 3:48 PM PDT
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(to fan blade)
the white and black button's functions are just moved to the two extra buttons on top

[Edited on 5/18/2006]

  • 05.18.2006 3:55 PM PDT
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I just dislike that frag grenades arent being powered down. I find them to be the imbalance, along with the BR and Carbine. Tricky little combinations of LR or RL or BXR or BXB or BLA or PP/BR are all crap. Besides that I think you did a pretty good job.

  • 05.18.2006 4:05 PM PDT
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Yes, Bungie, listen to this group or people who have never made a game, and do what they say to make the best game ever. Screw whatever you had planned and conform to the demand of the people.[/sarcasm]

[sigh] Damn, Bungie Non-conformist, with their, not listening....and making their game how they want....

  • 05.18.2006 4:12 PM PDT
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Well, I am a bit of a newbie here, but i do play halo 2 all the time. This forum greatly increased my strats, thnx banshee.

  • 05.18.2006 4:16 PM PDT