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This topic has moved here: Subject: Tyranids vs. Zerg. vs. Flood vs. Xenomorphs vs. Necromorphs?
  • Subject: Tyranids vs. Zerg. vs. Flood vs. Xenomorphs vs. Necromorphs?
Subject: Tyranids vs. Zerg. vs. Flood vs. Xenomorphs vs. Necromorphs?


Posted by: Ladicius
gonna be the zerg by far.


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  • 08.15.2011 12:46 PM PDT


Posted by: teekuppi

Posted by: hotshot revan II

4.I saw the map and did some research,one of the big hive Fleets was defeated at some battle right.I think it's accurate enough that a single fleet is composed of millions.



To correct, quite many Hivefleets have been defeated by numerous ways, from the three biggest ( leviathan, behemoth, kraken ) two have suffered this fate, and all of those at very important places, aka Macragge and Iyanden.

Leviathan is still roaming and basicly -blam!- up the Octarius ork imperium and approaching Baal.

As a sidenote, everyone on this debate has ignored that Tyranid's vessels do have shield like way to defend themselves. There are massive amounts of spores around those ships and they serve as cannonfodder to block that incoming fire, atleast that's how I've imagined it.

Do Forerunner ships shoot like having lasers or single highly powerful shots?


Well, they don't shoot lasers but beams made of pure light. And of course plasma weaponry.

A single shot from a Forerunner Cruiser cannon destroyed a Halo Ring. The ability to to this has been calculated to be around 330 terratons low-end, and 900-something terratons high end, depending who you talk too.

This was based on the PoA's explosion size relative to the width of the Halo ring. The explosion, which was several hundred terratons, gouged only a 5 kilometer crater in the adamantium armor (what military-grade ships are made of).

The cruisers and Fortresses sliced canyons, blew craters, and ripped gaping holes in the armor like it was butter when attacking the Halo ring. So...needless to say, the Forerunners are OPed.

  • 08.15.2011 12:59 PM PDT


Posted by: Cowgoesmoo
No doubt that a fight between all of them would be the most epic fight in history of the universe.

There are really only two forms that seem to be formidable.
The flood, and the tyranids.

The zerg seem to be extremely vulnerable to the flood, and the Tyranids.

The Xenomorphs can be easily destroyed, in my opinion, and so little is known about them. They have no assimilation or complex structures or a hive mind, they are easily defeated.

Necromorphs are a joke in this, they're pretty much just zombies. They can definitely still be infected, and damage by punches is the best they can do. They will be easily sliced up by the Tyranids.


The tyranids are formidable, as their close-range combat skills can keep many forms of the flood away, but the possibility of infection is still rather high. The flood can always find the weaker ones, and once sufficient biomass develops, the gravemind can begin to mimic's the tyranid's every move, and begin to assimilate their tactics and exploit weaknesses.

But still, it would be a long battle between tyranids and the flood.

Except... the flood would be able to infect necromorphs, xenomorphs, and after a while, the zerg. with everything attacking the tyranids, the flood could still win.


-blam!-, I totally forgot about the other three races. The Flood would use them as cannon fodder, as a resource as well.

Damn, its really looking more like the Flood now.

  • 08.15.2011 1:02 PM PDT


Posted by: DarkBen64
Also, chaos gods, the emperor, c'tan, necrons, tyranids, anything from the warp could beat the precursors. Tzeentch just has to sneeze and half of reality is screwed.


Chaos Gods, and Tzeentch are the only two you listed that has a hope against the Precursors. All the others have no weaponry against them as the Precursor's technology is literally indestructible.

  • 08.15.2011 1:05 PM PDT

Flood. Their ability to infect and rapidly assimilate all other biological life along with their ability to adsorb knowledge from the victims just makes them unstoppable once they get started. Every advantage the others have will be stolen and used against them.

  • 08.15.2011 1:09 PM PDT

You guys don't seem to appreciate that not only can the tyranids assimilate the other 3 races, but any biomass and any other mass bar bare rock. The flood cannot. It wouldn't take long for the tyranids to evolve resistance to the infection. The tyranids, if pushed too hard, simply make several strains of 'super tyranids' such as old one eye, the doom of malan'tai and the parasite if mordrex.

The tyranids would also evolve to be the most efficient they possibly can be at killing forerunner tech, and slowly the forerunner's weapons would get less and less effective.

Also, there are billions upon billions of tyranid ships seen and unseen alone, no matter how much tech you have ( and the flood can't use forerunner tech as well as the forerunners can) there are still too many tyranids which are constantly learning weaknesses etc of the enemy.

Don't even get me started on psychic powers, something which the tyranids have a LOT of and would be used in incredibly large amounts after it emerges that the forerunners have no defence against psychic powers.

The tyranids would overrun the forerunners eventually, much as the flood did, and the nids have killed equally big foes through sheer weight of numbers.

  • 08.15.2011 1:35 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: DarkBen64
Also, chaos gods, the emperor, c'tan, necrons, tyranids, anything from the warp could beat the precursors. Tzeentch just has to sneeze and half of reality is screwed.


Chaos Gods, and Tzeentch are the only two you listed that has a hope against the Precursors. All the others have no weaponry against them as the Precursor's technology is literally indestructible.

The Necrons can destroy anything with their guns. They can destroy anything. They break the target down to it's component atoms and rip it apart. Last time I checked, the Precursors existed in this, physical universe. Ergo, they had to be made of atoms. Atoms which the Necrons can destroy.

The Warp could also -blam!- stuff up. They can rip open holes in reality. The standard daemons are little more than beasts, aspects of their patron, but they can still cleave anything in two.

@your other post: If the Flood can use the other three races as biomass, so can the 'nids. This essentially dissolves into a war of attrition that no one will win.

But then again, the OP mentioned everyone is at the height of their power. This puts the 'nids above the Flood because the Flood at their height was merely a single galaxy force, whereas the Tyranids span thousands of galaxies.

Doom of Malan'tai for the win! Anyone who can solo an entire Craftworld is obviously a force to be reckoned with.

[Edited on 08.15.2011 1:40 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 1:38 PM PDT

< Insert witty comment/joke here >

Benjamin!

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Cowgoesmoo
Except... the flood would be able to infect necromorphs, xenomorphs, and after a while, the zerg. with everything attacking the tyranids, the flood could still win.


-blam!-, I totally forgot about the other three races. The Flood would use them as cannon fodder, as a resource as well.

Damn, its really looking more like the Flood now.


Now, that's assuming the Flood get to them first, if they attacked the Tyranids, they'd be converted in to more combatants for that side.
But, I imagine this scenario was intended to be a five way staged battle, and the Flood are able to convert to their cause much more quickly than the Tyranids, so aye, I'd agree the Flood would be more likely to win in the event of all five forces converging on one battlefield.

[Edited on 08.15.2011 1:44 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 1:39 PM PDT

And once again, the flood would learn nothing from infecting a tyranid, as tyranids are just mindless beasts.

The hive mind would relinquish control over them if need be, and even if the gravemind came into contact with the hive mind it wouldn't be able to learn much, considering A the hive mind is far too powerful
And B other attempts at communication with the hive minds only reveal that the hive mind is very, very hungry, before the communicator violently dies from sheer psychic power.

  • 08.15.2011 1:42 PM PDT

It also boils down to how many nids the flood can infect before the tyranids develop immunity. Sgt Johnson was basically made immune by the unsc, so the tyranids wouldn't have much trouble.

Once they were immune to the FSC, then they can go about assimilating flood biomatter too.

Technically, they can anyway, as the biomatter is rendered down to single biological molecules in vast pits before being processed into more tyranids.

I'm also going to stress again, psychic powers. None of the other races have them, giving the tyranids an advantage that would not take long at all to exploit.

  • 08.15.2011 1:46 PM PDT

< Insert witty comment/joke here >

Benjamin!

Posted by: DarkBen64
It also boils down to how many nids the flood can infect before the tyranids develop immunity. Sgt Johnson was basically made immune by the unsc, so the tyranids wouldn't have much trouble.


Actually, that's a very good point.
Humanity has individuals immune to the Flood and they have a limited understand of genetic engineering, the Tyranids are vastly more adept at such things, and if humans can do it, then the Tyranids could easily do so aswell. Meaning infection just wouldn't happen.

  • 08.15.2011 1:49 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

If you've read nothing on 40k then how do you expect to argue against it?


Um from the info i could gather on their wikia and other vs debates.
Take a look at vs debates across the net,it happens all time that one side hasn't the knowledge of the other which is why i asked to post evidence(several times in this thread)


The webway and craftworlds alone are a large part of elder tech.

Which works the same way as slipspace portals right?

Craftworlds are huge spaceships that are populated by Eldars.

I can't see how these two put the Eldar at a higher level then the 4runners. The Eldar need their craftworlds,the Forerunners just have their own planets which means they don't need to become space nomads.



Anything from chaos has innumerable powers. Last time I checked, no reality means no precursors, so tzeentch > precursors

What?Please explain ,you point doesn't makes any sense. Which recorded powers do they have and what do you mean with no reality = no precursors.

You guys don't seem to appreciate that not only can the tyranids assimilate the other 3 races, but any biomass and any other mass bar bare rock. The flood cannot. It wouldn't take long for the tyranids to evolve resistance to the infection. The tyranids, if pushed too hard, simply make several strains of 'super tyranids' such as old one eye, the doom of malan'tai and the parasite if mordrex.

You fail to understand that the Flood do use any biomass and calcium.
Hey i can play this game too:
It won't take long that the FSC becomes too powerful for the nids to develop a resistance too. The problem is you haven't provided any evidence that the nids do have an equivelant of the Flood Super Cell.Corect me if i'm wrong but nids don't infect,they assimilate so i doubt they have a virus within them
(again correct my limited knowledge if i'm wrong)

The tyranids would also evolve to be the most efficient they possibly can be at killing forerunner tech, and slowly the forerunner's weapons would get less and less effective.


So the Nids will have forms that can survive city busting weapons? Where is the prove that the nids can adapt to create a counter to any enemy,maybe someone already posted it in this thread if so then i'm sorry.
The Flood can and it has been posted here.

Also, there are billions upon billions of tyranid ships seen and unseen alone, no matter how much tech you have ( and the flood can't use forerunner tech as well as the forerunners can) there are still too many tyranids which are constantly learning weaknesses etc of the enemy.

The Flood were seen operating Forerunner tech with ease,.
You keep saying that the nids learn from the enemy,that's the exact thing the Flood do which there is evidence for but how about the nids , you keep giving them limitless powers without evidence.
ANY factions will learn weaknesses from eachother when fighting for some time,but you will have to prove that the nids can do that like the Flood do. It has been said that the nids are mindless beasts in this thread except the hive mind.
Seriously my point is where is the evidence of nids learning from their enemy like the level of the Flood

And again here is the evidence for the Flood's adaptability:

Bestiarium:
Flood biomass is composed of an undifferentiated cell type that has been labeled [marker[?]]>LF.Xx.3273_Flood_Super_Cell. The Flood Super Cell (FSC) can be loosely described as [thinking muscle[?]], and it closely resembles neurons or glial cells in structure. It has been verified on multiple occasions that the Flood have the ability to arrange these FSCs to mimic any organ they might need



Don't even get me started on psychic powers, something which the tyranids have a LOT of and would be used in incredibly large amounts after it emerges that the forerunners have no defence against psychic powers.

Last time i checked only the Hivemind could do that(from the nids society).And you have to conact it fo be exposed to these powers

The tyranids would overrun the forerunners eventually, much as the flood did, and the nids have killed equally big foes through sheer weight of numbers.

Forerunner War Sphinxes can decimate entire cities,the timeframe isn't given but that's still huge firepower we are talking about here.Considering that they are used as direct assault instead of orbital bombardement means it's in a short time.
With this firepower the War Sphinx can destroy any Nid troop it meets,add that to the fact that it's fast and can fly it means the Nids will have a hard time hitting it from the air before they are vaporised by it's weapons,even if they kill one there are still thousands of others.

Then there is also a massive sentinels that is calculated to have gigaton-teraton grade weapons(Halo legends) and their ground assests can life the crust up and turn it over.


That is what the Nids will have to face on ground,now are you going to say that the Nids will somehow survive that or will magically find weaknesses in ground assests that have crazy firepower?

A spacebattle isn't even worth discussing,the fact that they have trillions of vigilant in a single starsystem says alot.And nowwhere in Cryptum does it even says that those are tiny probes,haloepdian pulls info from it's ass again. Those are most likely automated vessels.

The Necrons can destroy anything with their guns. They can destroy anything. They break the target down to it's component atoms and rip it apart. Last time I checked, the Precursors existed in this, physical universe. Ergo, they had to be made of atoms. Atoms which the Necrons can destroy

Precursor material could survive millions of years inside the huge pressure of a crust,i won't even mention the fact that they literally have bridges that span from planet to planet or system to system. This sounds crazy but it just proves that the Precursors slap laws of physics across the face.No surprise as Greg Bear said they are Gods.,i very much doubt those Necron weapons would do what other forces failed to do.

So far only weapons like Halo can even hope do damage it.

But then again, the OP mentioned everyone is at the height of their power. This puts the 'nids above the Flood because the Flood at their height was merely a single galaxy force, whereas the Tyranids span thousands of galaxies.

Unknown as we have no idea of their origins.But with the known info the Nids do have crazy numbers. There are probably quintillions of Nid individials in the combined Hive Fleets.
Huge Problem indeed,but again the Flood have the firepower at their said because of the stolen tech so it's very diffilult to choose a winner here ,all i do know is defend the Flood but i won't say they win i call it a tie.

It also boils down to how many nids the flood can infect before the tyranids develop immunity. Sgt Johnson was basically made immune by the unsc, so the tyranids wouldn't have much trouble.


That's because Johnsons nervous system was -blam!- up,infection form couldn't access it. But again here is the big problem,it has been explained why the infection form couldn't access the nervous system but in newer canon media the Flood don't even need to access the nervous system just inject some FSC into the body and it starts to mutate. I mean look at the Chief he didn't even became a combat form ,in the new canon you have just to come in contact with the FSC you become theirs.

Do the nids have a nervous system?Matters if we were in pre 2004 but in 2011 you can bite a host and it already mutates.


  • 08.15.2011 3:27 PM PDT


Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: DarkBen64
Also, chaos gods, the emperor, c'tan, necrons, tyranids, anything from the warp could beat the precursors. Tzeentch just has to sneeze and half of reality is screwed.


Chaos Gods, and Tzeentch are the only two you listed that has a hope against the Precursors. All the others have no weaponry against them as the Precursor's technology is literally indestructible.

The Necrons can destroy anything with their guns. They can destroy anything. They break the target down to it's component atoms and rip it apart. Last time I checked, the Precursors existed in this, physical universe. Ergo, they had to be made of atoms. Atoms which the Necrons can destroy.

The Warp could also -blam!- stuff up. They can rip open holes in reality. The standard daemons are little more than beasts, aspects of their patron, but they can still cleave anything in two.

@your other post: If the Flood can use the other three races as biomass, so can the 'nids. This essentially dissolves into a war of attrition that no one will win.

But then again, the OP mentioned everyone is at the height of their power. This puts the 'nids above the Flood because the Flood at their height was merely a single galaxy force, whereas the Tyranids span thousands of galaxies.

Doom of Malan'tai for the win! Anyone who can solo an entire Craftworld is obviously a force to be reckoned with.


If the Precursor's material was made of atoms it would be destructible. It is not. It instead heavily implied to be the physical manifestation of the universe's consciousness. Not atoms.

And the 'nids are a dozen galaxy force. Not a thousand.

  • 08.15.2011 3:52 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Edit: The fact is the Tyranids have more numbers than the flood. Much more.
Where did you get the whole "Precusor Buildings are the conscious of the Universe" idea? I have only ever heard them being connected with the Universe.

There is a difference between being crushed in a core of a planet and having your atoms being stripped apart. The Necron Codex tells me that Gauss Weapons break the atomic bonds holding the atoms together and attracting it towards the barrel via magnetic/electric charges. It should also be noted that the power required to use the most basic of these devices is more than the total power of one of today's aircraft carriers and that some Gauss weapons produce levels of power unheard of outside of starship grade reactors.
Page 55 of the Necron Codex.
Theoretically, any force that has a power weapon or similar analogue could destroy Precursor structures. Power weapons create a matter disruption field that acts like it sounds. The field allows the user to cleave through any armor or material.

Any large Tyranid entity can channel the Hive Mind. Most act as conduits allowing the Mind full control but Zoanthropes use it offensively, breaking men's sanity and ripping apart fortresses. Zoanthropes can even channel their power into a shield that can survive a direct hit from a Titan's Volcano Cannon.

A large part of the Tyranids is their distilling of specific beneficially traits into single organisms. Zoanthropes are such potent mind warriors because they have been created from the Eldar. They are all that makes the Eldar Pyskers strong.

Tyranids adaptability is beyond compare. One splinter fleet started a war with the Tau and within hours had developed near-total immunity to their Pulse Weapons (basically mini particle accelerators).

I am unable to tell you about the Tyranids inner workings because I lack a copy of Xenology. Since it has since gone out of print and it will probably be a while before BL adds it to the Print on Demand section I can't answer that question. I have heard that the Mind skips over things like digestive tracts or similarly unneeded things for the lesser creatures.

Hierophant Bio-Titans. They have the power and the survivability.

I would also like to remind you that we are not discussing a Tyranid/Forerunner space battle. I would also like to say that there is a big difference between several trillion War Sphinxes and several trillion over-glorified Hubble Telescopes. Cryptum never said what those ships were, only that there was a lot of them.

P.S. Necron Gauss weapons aren't actually Gauss.

[Edited on 08.15.2011 3:59 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 3:56 PM PDT

< Insert witty comment/joke here >

Benjamin!

Edit: Never mind, guy above me got to it first.

[Edited on 08.15.2011 3:58 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 3:56 PM PDT

Damn my long reply just got screwed over by my iPod.

No matter, xd00999 basically got my point across.
I shall answer any more questions tomorrow.

Before I go, someone with extensive 40k knowledge please explain how advanced eldar are, soul stones etc. Takes too long to type on this damn thing.

[Edited on 08.15.2011 4:09 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 4:07 PM PDT


Posted by: Xd00999
Edit: The fact is the Tyranids have more numbers than the flood. Much more.
Where did you get the whole "Precusor Buildings are the conscious of the Universe" idea? I have only ever heard them being connected with the Universe.


Because their science was based off of the idea the universe was a living, breathing entity.

Anyway, perhaps it'd be easier to call it a draw. Like an intense Grifball match, both teams are so evenly matched all they end up doing is switching sides. Quite frankly, both the Flood and the Tyranids essentially have an infinite amount of resources, at least the Flood do with corpse reanimation. Their war would likely result in the merging of the two races into one, OP'ed super race.

Then the Chaos Gods and Precursors place bets on how long both respective universes will last.

  • 08.15.2011 4:08 PM PDT

Same size armies = draw
But, there are 100s of times more nids than flood. So nids win.

  • 08.15.2011 4:11 PM PDT


Posted by: DarkBen64
Same size armies = draw
But, there are 100s of times more nids than flood. So nids win.


^^ fanboy logic.

  • 08.15.2011 4:15 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Xd00999
Edit: The fact is the Tyranids have more numbers than the flood. Much more.
Where did you get the whole "Precusor Buildings are the conscious of the Universe" idea? I have only ever heard them being connected with the Universe.


Because their science was based off of the idea the universe was a living, breathing entity.

Anyway, perhaps it'd be easier to call it a draw. Like an intense Grifball match, both teams are so evenly matched all they end up doing is switching sides. Quite frankly, both the Flood and the Tyranids essentially have an infinite amount of resources, at least the Flood do with corpse reanimation. Their war would likely result in the merging of the two races into one, OP'ed super race.

Then the Chaos Gods and Precursors place bets on how long both respective universes will last.

Deal. Flood and 'nids combine into the Deluge (cwutididthere), the Aliens continue their song and dance routine, the Zerg do whatever Zerg do, and everyone has fun dismembering the Necromorphs.
The Precursor discussion belongs in it's own thread.

  • 08.15.2011 4:16 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

It was an awesome discussion can we let this die in peace?

Like Roberto and xd00999 said they will transform into a single uber race and smash any opposition apart.

Teh Flonids or Tyrods

Peace
End of story
Good luck Chaos and Precursors

*goes to sleep*

  • 08.15.2011 4:57 PM PDT

< Insert witty comment/joke here >

Benjamin!

Cheers again guys (I realise I tried to drop out of the discussion way back, but I'm a sucker for this sort of thing, couldn't help coming back) Kept me occupied during my boring day. ;)

*Waves goodbye whilst valiently clinging to his current Heroic Member title*

  • 08.15.2011 5:00 PM PDT

Why would they fight anyway? Their goals are the same. They will assimilate each other and their form will become exactly the same. They will be fighting to adsorb the others minds so the resulting hivemind is the same. Its not like they are political or anything, they are not held back by petty human ideals.

  • 08.15.2011 5:01 PM PDT

"There was honor in our covenant once, and there shall be again"

the flood? really? come on guys. necromorphs in my opinion. you saw what they did in dead space. I don't see the flood having razor sharp claws on their backs or the ability to spit acid like junk that melts armour. the spores just jump around a bit. And sure some flood types are big and powerful but the tormentor on dead space 2 beats the flood in size and probably strength. the hivemind is nothing, what appeared to be a necromorph leader was invincible and just grew back his limbs

  • 08.15.2011 7:32 PM PDT


Posted by: Static Shock46
the flood? really? come on guys. necromorphs in my opinion. you saw what they did in dead space. I don't see the flood having razor sharp claws on their backs or the ability to spit acid like junk that melts armour. the spores just jump around a bit. And sure some flood types are big and powerful but the tormentor on dead space 2 beats the flood in size and probably strength. the hivemind is nothing, what appeared to be a necromorph leader was invincible and just grew back his limbs


^^ clearly knows nothing of the Flood and is likely a Dead Space fanboy.

It may come as a surprise to you, but per the rules, all sides are at the highest power they've ever been at, known. Therefore, its a tie between the Tyranids and the Flood. 'Nids have the numbers, Flood have the firepower (and a good amount of numbers in their own right).

Because I don't see any Necromorphs the size of skyscrapers taking cities by storm. Nor do I see them using weaponry that can death star a planet or detonate a star like a grenade. I don't recall billions of different monstrosities of all sizes, shapes and specialities swamping Issac Clarke like a real Flood.

Because that is the Flood as the Forerunners knew them. The Flood in this debate.

And the Hivemind is to the Gravemind as a termite is to Dr. Manhattan, that goes without saying.

The debates over, no need to continue it.

  • 08.15.2011 7:57 PM PDT