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Subject: Devil's Advocate: The Gravemind's goals are noble.

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Thinking about everything about the Flood that we've seen, I'm beginning to think the Gravemind is a noble individual who has plans for the greater good.

First, let's look at what the Forerunners and Humanity are guilty of. At the height of their interstellar empires, they would displace entire races form their homeworlds so they could colonize them. Now I'm not sure if the Forerunners had a habit to de-evolve other species besides Humanity, but they did have the ability. Seems like a clear violation of the Mantle passed down form the Precursors. Heck, if the Timeless One wasn't lying, then the Forerunners rebelled and killed off the Precursors. How remains to be seen.

On a Biblical level, this seems to represent the Fall of Man to Sin. After a few hundred (thousands?) of years, God sends the Great Flood to wipe the slate clean of his mistake.

On a similar level, it seems increasingly obvious the Precursors used the Flood as a means to fix their mistake, the Forerunners and Humanity. Since the Forerunners and Humanity to an extent wished to keep the other races down and thus stagnant the development of other races in the galaxy, what better way to fix this problem with a parasite that effectively makes everybody equal?

Perhaps it isn't the most ideal method, but just take a look at the Graveminds/Prisoner's quotes.

"Arrogant creatures! Your deaths will be instantaneous, while we shall suffer the progress of infinitude!" -Said on High Charity

"I am a timeless chorus. Join your voice with mine, and sing victory everlasting." -Said on Floodgate

"Do not be afraid. I am peace; I am salvation." -Said on Floodgate

Again, not the nicest quotes in the world, but they do have a noble undertone do they not?

What do you think?

  • 08.15.2011 3:49 PM PDT

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This leads me to believe that some people may choose to be infected by the flood.

  • 08.15.2011 3:59 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Actually I would say all of those quotes do sound nice. The Gravemind is easily my favorite character in the series. Which is why Human Weakness was my favorite story from Evolutions.

Like he says your consciousness will live forever within him, and in HW we are given proof of this when the GM shows Cortana the mind of an ancient assimilated species. Cortana describes accepting all of that knowledge as peaceful and all the knowledge she could ever want.

Read that story again and really appreciate how old the GM is and everything he knows and has seen. The way he tempts Cortana with immortality because he knows that she has a short lifespan as an AI. It's easy to see how he could get Mendicant to betray the Forerunner.

Fascinating.

[Edited on 08.15.2011 4:01 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 4:00 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Might make the process easier. Submitting would make more sense than fighting it like the Forerunners did. All that did was kill off every sentient lifeform.

  • 08.15.2011 4:00 PM PDT

I agree to an extent, but the Prisoner himself seemed to be considered dangerous by the Precursors. Why else would he have been locked up by them? I think the Prisoner was acting out of order, he created the Flood for the reason you gave, and the other Precursors saw the Flood as an abomination, since the Flood is not restricted to just killing Forerunners and Humans.

  • 08.15.2011 4:02 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: Spartan 100
This leads me to believe that some people may choose to be infected by the flood.
If you are species that doesn't have the ability to build massive ring worlds with the capability of wiping out all sentient life in the galaxy, what other choice is there?

Oh and Cobra we still don't know for sure that the Prisoner is the Gravemind. Is there a good chance of it? Yup. But until I read it I will maintain my reservations.

[Edited on 08.15.2011 4:04 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 4:02 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
I agree to an extent, but the Prisoner himself seemed to be considered dangerous by the Precursors. Why else would he have been locked up by them? I think the Prisoner was acting out of order, he created the Flood for the reason you gave, and the other Precursors saw the Flood as an abomination, since the Flood is not restricted to just killing Forerunners and Humans.


Or perhaps he saw the coming Forerunner, perhaps Humanity aided, rebellion coming. Ironically, the prison could be the safest place to be.

  • 08.15.2011 4:04 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!


Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: Spartan 100
This leads me to believe that some people may choose to be infected by the flood.
If you are species that doesn't have the ability to build massive ring worlds with the capability of wiping out all sentient life in the galaxy, what other choice is there?

Oh and Cobra we still don't know for sure that the Prisoner is the Gravemind. Is there a good chance of it? Yup. But until I read it I will maintain my reservations.

Be one with everyone else, be at peace when everything is consumed, no more war, no more dieases, no more death. Peace.

  • 08.15.2011 4:06 PM PDT

Dude, he noms noms noms on your brains.

Kidding, actually a very good theory.

  • 08.15.2011 4:07 PM PDT

Do you know what kind of hat I'm wearing?

A party hat; you don't get one. An honor will this party be, a party in your honor, for your honor. Some of Tfear's personal guards are going to be there. You'll be introduced shortly.

Prepare to die.

LF.Xx.3273.> {~} all the thinking
beings of this galaxy, not just
those that they{~} exactly are they
afraid of? Immortality and strength
and companionship? Because that is
{~} do: to deliver all of the living
beings of this galaxy from death and
weakness and loneliness.

MB.05-032.> Hundreds of {~} offered
this so called immortality. The
citizens of every world that {~}
resisted to the very end!

LF.Xx.3273.> {~} understand their
actions; they are only doing what
they think is right, but they are
doing so [from a worm's eye view].

MB.05-032.> Do their actions {~} of
desperation? I can only assume my
creators view {~} crisis so dire
that any {~} hence me.

LF.Xx.3273.> Are they so concerned
{~} would give to all the living
beings of this galaxy is a threat to
[the status quo]
LF.Xx.3273.> Your creators claim {~}
the enemy of all life; that {~}
purpose is to consume until there is
nothing left. Nothing left? It is
beyond comprehension how they could
be so [far off the mark].

MB.05-032.> Surely you understand
this is a situation that would not
have {~} appearance of a certain
rapacious {~} my creators obviously
view them as the actions of an
aggressor species.

LF.Xx.3273.> [Be that as it may];
perhaps they are crying out for help
on a subconscious level? Why else
would they have chosen you? Why you
of all possible executioners? {~}
your creators knew that unaided they
never stood a chance against us? {~}
also sense a deeper [motivation]

LF.Xx.3273.> {~} complexity {~}
spread {~} our appearance ushered in
the beginning of the third great
stage of evolution. The first {~}
condensation of particles was the
result of the inevitable action of
strong nuclear force and the
creation of stars {~} inevitable
action of gravity; so to the
self-replicating chemical processes
that dictate all disparate {~} In
time, we too shall affect change on
a universal scale.

Seems legit.

  • 08.15.2011 4:08 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Spartan1065
Oh and Cobra we still don't know for sure that the Prisoner is the Gravemind. Is there a good chance of it? Yup. But until I read it I will maintain my reservations.


I'm not sure who else it would be. The Didact mentions the escaped Prisoner was granted powers beyond comprehension, or something to that extent. Bias disappears and he ended up where the Prisoner was. Then the Prisoner says "I am the last Precursor and OUR answer is at hand."

What starts to come again after Crypum? The Flood.

  • 08.15.2011 4:08 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
First, let's look at what the Forerunners and Humanity are guilty of. At the height of their interstellar empires, they would displace entire races form their homeworlds so they could colonize them.

There is no evidence that Humanity did this before the Flood arrived the first tine around. It appeared to be the initial Flood invasion that drove Humanity to such extremes in the first place.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Again, not the nicest quotes in the world, but they do have a noble undertone do they not?

It is immoral to take away a persons rights and freedom when they have done nothing to warrant it, ie violating another persons rights and freedoms.

  • 08.15.2011 4:14 PM PDT
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See, this is why I hate the Forunner trilogy. Duuur huur humans were super powerful at one point. It turned the Forunners, those lonely, noble protectors of the galaxy into a bunch of pricks, and the Flood being non extragalactic was just lame.

  • 08.15.2011 4:18 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Of course, what are rights? To quote the late George Carlin,

"Folks I hate to spoil your fun, but... there's no such thing as rights. They're imaginary. We made 'em up. Like the boogie man. Like Three Little Pigs, Pinocchio, Mother Goose, -blam!- like that. Rights are an idea. They're just imaginary. They're a cute idea. Cute. But that's all. Cute...and fictional. But if you think you do have rights, let me ask you this, "where do they come from?"

The Forerunners, guardians of the Mantle, didn't care about anyone's rights or freedom. The GM may not be perfect, but in a way, his goals would deliver the ultimate freedom. We don't really know where the conscious goes after Flood transformation, if its stated I'd like to know.

  • 08.15.2011 4:20 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Sandtrap
See, this is why I hate the Forunner trilogy. Duuur huur humans were super powerful at one point. It turned the Forunners, those lonely, noble protectors of the galaxy into a bunch of pricks, and the Flood being non extragalactic was just lame.


The Flood did come form outside the galaxy if I'm not not mistaken. And really, must you keep going on about how you hate the Forerunner trilogy, which is weird seeing as you've read only one book, in every thread? That isn't even the discussion here.

  • 08.15.2011 4:22 PM PDT

There's a reason medicant bias betrayed the forerunner to join gravemind - the flood just make more sense in the most raw and honest way. The flood are potentially a virtually immortal sum of all living creatures, all knowledge that ever was or will be, all races that ever were or will be, can all live forever as the flood, all their knowledge gathered in it's central mind.

  • 08.15.2011 4:23 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Sandtrap
See, this is why I hate the Forunner trilogy. Duuur huur humans were super powerful at one point. It turned the Forunners, those lonely, noble protectors of the galaxy into a bunch of pricks, and the Flood being non extragalactic was just lame.


Are you retarded?

1) Yes, human were a Tier 1 race and they defied the Forerunners by attempting to expand beyond the Orion Arm. They got into a war and lost, thus humanity was sent back to the Stone Age. What is wrong with that?

2) The Forerunners only became wise during the final years of the Forerunner-Flood war where they realised that they'd exploited a loophole in the Mantle in order to keep their power and in the end had nobody to help them. Before that, they were pricks.

3) The Flood still are extra-galactic. They were sent into the galaxy on ancient ships though the Magellanic Clouds.

  • 08.15.2011 4:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: Sandtrap
See, this is why I hate the Forunner trilogy. Duuur huur humans were super powerful at one point. It turned the Forunners, those lonely, noble protectors of the galaxy into a bunch of pricks, and the Flood being non extragalactic was just lame.


Are you retarded?

1) Yes, human were a Tier 1 race and they defied the Forerunners by attempting to expand beyond the Orion Arm. They got into a war and lost, thus humanity was sent back to the Stone Age. What is wrong with that?

2) The Forerunners only became wise during the final years of the Forerunner-Flood war where they realised that they'd exploited a loophole in the Mantle in order to keep their power and in the end had nobody to help them. Before that, they were pricks.

3) The Flood still are extra-galactic. They were sent into the galaxy on ancient ships though the Magellanic Clouds.


*trollface*

  • 08.15.2011 4:35 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Sandtrap
*trollface*


Either contribute something to the topic at hand or leave.

[Edited on 08.15.2011 4:37 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 4:37 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Of course, what are rights? To quote the late George Carlin,

"Folks I hate to spoil your fun, but... there's no such thing as rights. They're imaginary. We made 'em up. Like the boogie man. Like Three Little Pigs, Pinocchio, Mother Goose, -blam!- like that. Rights are an idea. They're just imaginary. They're a cute idea. Cute. But that's all. Cute...and fictional. But if you think you do have rights, let me ask you this, "where do they come from?"

The Forerunners, guardians of the Mantle, didn't care about anyone's rights or freedom. The GM may not be perfect, but in a way, his goals would deliver the ultimate freedom. We don't really know where the conscious goes after Flood transformation, if its stated I'd like to know.


Yeah, from what I've heard, cryptum showed the Forerunners as arrogant and purposefully keeping all other races possible under their thumb and not allowing them to develop.

Gravemind seems to fall into an oh-so-common area of possible villians.

"Their goals are noble, but the means they go about completing them tends to be less noble."

  • 08.15.2011 4:38 PM PDT

happiness is a warm gun

gravemind has no noble intentions, but to destroy galaxies and extinct not only sentient beings, but also plants and any vegetation.

forerunners were not good people, but gravemind is the end of all

[Edited on 08.15.2011 4:44 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 4:42 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: mb3486
gravemind has no noble intentions, but to destroy galaxies and extinct not only sentient beings, but also plants and any vegetation.

How can you fairly say that when we've only ever gotten one said of the story, the side that says he is evil.

  • 08.15.2011 4:44 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

I completely agree. It is sort of like communism in the sense that all are equal. I even suggested as much in my thread on him in the Archive: he was basically a good guy and has a noble idea, but he has the worst execution ever.

  • 08.15.2011 4:45 PM PDT

happiness is a warm gun


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: mb3486
gravemind has no noble intentions, but to destroy galaxies and extinct not only sentient beings, but also plants and any vegetation.

How can you fairly say that when we've only ever gotten one said of the story, the side that says he is evil.

just to see the trail of his devastation is enough evidence imo. hes a king parasite

  • 08.15.2011 4:45 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Spartan1065
Oh and Cobra we still don't know for sure that the Prisoner is the Gravemind. Is there a good chance of it? Yup. But until I read it I will maintain my reservations.


I'm not sure who else it would be. The Didact mentions the escaped Prisoner was granted powers beyond comprehension, or something to that extent. Bias disappears and he ended up where the Prisoner was. Then the Prisoner says "I am the last Precursor and OUR answer is at hand."

What starts to come again after Crypum? The Flood.
Like I said with the evidence we have so far it is very possible. But maybe Bear will just throw us all for a loop with a good plot twist. Who knows.

  • 08.15.2011 4:46 PM PDT

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