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Subject: Devil's Advocate: The Gravemind's goals are noble.

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: mb3486

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: mb3486
gravemind has no noble intentions, but to destroy galaxies and extinct not only sentient beings, but also plants and any vegetation.

How can you fairly say that when we've only ever gotten one said of the story, the side that says he is evil.

just to see the trail of his devastation is enough evidence imo. hes a king parasite


Not everything good is always pretty to look at.

  • 08.15.2011 4:48 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Indeed.
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: mb3486

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: mb3486
gravemind has no noble intentions, but to destroy galaxies and extinct not only sentient beings, but also plants and any vegetation.

How can you fairly say that when we've only ever gotten one said of the story, the side that says he is evil.

just to see the trail of his devastation is enough evidence imo. hes a king parasite


Not everything good is always pretty to look at.

  • 08.15.2011 4:59 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Sheppard needs to find his favorite plastic surgeon on the Citadel.

  • 08.15.2011 5:19 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Thinking about everything about the Flood that we've seen, I'm beginning to think the Gravemind is a noble individual who has plans for the greater good.

First, let's look at what the Forerunners and Humanity are guilty of. At the height of their interstellar empires, they would displace entire races form their homeworlds so they could colonize them. Now I'm not sure if the Forerunners had a habit to de-evolve other species besides Humanity, but they did have the ability. Seems like a clear violation of the Mantle passed down form the Precursors. Heck, if the Timeless One wasn't lying, then the Forerunners rebelled and killed off the Precursors. How remains to be seen.

On a Biblical level, this seems to represent the Fall of Man to Sin. After a few hundred (thousands?) of years, God sends the Great Flood to wipe the slate clean of his mistake.

On a similar level, it seems increasingly obvious the Precursors used the Flood as a means to fix their mistake, the Forerunners and Humanity. Since the Forerunners and Humanity to an extent wished to keep the other races down and thus stagnant the development of other races in the galaxy, what better way to fix this problem with a parasite that effectively makes everybody equal?

Perhaps it isn't the most ideal method, but just take a look at the Graveminds/Prisoner's quotes.

"Arrogant creatures! Your deaths will be instantaneous, while we shall suffer the progress of infinitude!" -Said on High Charity

"I am a timeless chorus. Join your voice with mine, and sing victory everlasting." -Said on Floodgate

"Do not be afraid. I am peace; I am salvation." -Said on Floodgate

Again, not the nicest quotes in the world, but they do have a noble undertone do they not?

What do you think?


Didn't the Forerunners sacrifice themselves to save the galaxy? Also I've heard that the only reason the Forerunner de-evolved humanity and other races is because they went to war wiith the Forunners and were considered a threat so were punished. This is all absed on what I can remember. Correct me if I'm wrong.

  • 08.15.2011 5:53 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Of course, what are rights? To quote the late George Carlin,

"Folks I hate to spoil your fun, but... there's no such thing as rights. They're imaginary. We made 'em up. Like the boogie man. Like Three Little Pigs, Pinocchio, Mother Goose, -blam!- like that. Rights are an idea. They're just imaginary. They're a cute idea. Cute. But that's all. Cute...and fictional. But if you think you do have rights, let me ask you this, "where do they come from?"

Rights exist, in the wider sense, to protect an individual's freedoms, which is essential to the pursuit of living. You cannot live successfully without having the freedom, the choice, to determine what is best for you.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
The Forerunners, guardians of the Mantle, didn't care about anyone's rights or freedom. The GM may not be perfect, but in a way, his goals would deliver the ultimate freedom.

Freedom cannot exist without volition. Freedom requires that the person first has the ability to choose. There is no freedom in the Flood, even assuming that the consciousness survives assimilation.

Also, this is very black and white. "The Forerunners, ..., didn't care about anyone's rights or freedom." They are a very large group of individuals. I have made this mistake in the past, but in labelling them all the same is wrong. Genocide of any kind is bad, because there are always innocent people being slaughtered in it. Not everybody shares the same belief, and often it is those in power (A very small minority) that screw things up for everyone else. Generalisations are wrong, basically.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
We don't really know where the conscious goes after Flood transformation, if its stated I'd like to know.

It is wiped from the face of existence. I infer this from the part in The Flood about Captain Keyes' infection.

  • 08.15.2011 6:19 PM PDT


Posted by: Surperion93
Didn't the Forerunners sacrifice themselves to save the galaxy? Also I've heard that the only reason the Forerunner de-evolved humanity and other races is because they went to war wiith the Forunners and were considered a threat so were punished. This is all absed on what I can remember. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Wouldn't you say completely destroying human's culture and empire, then devolving the entire race so they could NEVER band together in a manner that would threaten the forerunners is extreme?

Even then, they treated the flood as nothing major until halfway through the war(as far as I can tell), then only started trying their best to defeat them. All the while they had halos which could apparently be set to kill life only in a single system, which would've taken the flood out pretty good.

  • 08.15.2011 6:24 PM PDT
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I couldn't care less about "cleansing", but if I play as the flood in the upcoming trilogy, I'm leaving Halo.

  • 08.15.2011 6:49 PM PDT

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

If you're interested in Halo's music, check this out.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Speaking of chuckles, let's all lol at IonicPaul, who makes friends with bugs to make up for his lack of human contact.

The Gravemind wants and needs food. That's the base fact of the Flood (or any race). They eat. They're parasitic predators. And the whole point of "Human Weakness" was to show that while the Gravemind can show memories of beautiful places and events and knowledge, he can only show them. The Flood, on a whole, cannot create. They can only consume.

But when you are in the Gravemind's position, you have to advocate yourself. He could go "Sorry, but I'm hungry and I'm going to feed off your calcium deposits and use your body and memories to kill all your friends and anyone else I can get to," but he doesn't. He has to justify it.

In Halo, we're prey. We must defend ourselves. You will be consumed if you don't fight back. You lose your individuality, the essence of what makes you human. At best you're in a hive mind, but it's not the same. Even if I was guaranteed my consciousness would survive, I wouldn't do it. The Gravemind will destroy and consume all that is held dear to me and others. A biased position, but so is his.

So we fight.

[Edited on 08.15.2011 7:04 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 7:01 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

From the limited perspective of the Halo trilogy and and a few books, that would be the case, the GM and Flood can only consume and destroy.

But in Crytum, it's not so simple. We know the Forerunners violated the Mantle the Precursors entrusted them with. They even rebelled against the Precursors. They would move entire populations to make room for their own people. They stagnated growth to weed out competition. The Flood could be the cure for that stagnation.

  • 08.15.2011 7:08 PM PDT

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

If you're interested in Halo's music, check this out.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Speaking of chuckles, let's all lol at IonicPaul, who makes friends with bugs to make up for his lack of human contact.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
From the limited perspective of the Halo trilogy and and a few books, that would be the case, the GM and Flood can only consume and destroy.

But in Crytum, it's not so simple. We know the Forerunners violated the Mantle the Precursors entrusted them with. They even rebelled against the Precursors. They would move entire populations to make room for their own people. They stagnated growth to weed out competition. The Flood could be the cure for that stagnation.

Genocide is not the cure. That's like saying that because the National Socialist Party (you know what I mean) carried out the Holocaust, the Germans should be exterminated. It's like saying that because my (and most other people's) white ancestors were horrible, racist, selfish piles of excrement, all white people should be consumed and destroyed.

That's childish, and so is the justification of the Flood as a "cleansing" tool. Coincidentally, "ethnic cleansing" is the propagandist term for genocide.

  • 08.15.2011 7:12 PM PDT

Cave Johnson here, we're done!

PS: If you are reading this comment while imagining my voice, don't panic. That's just a side effect of the testing.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
From the limited perspective of the Halo trilogy and and a few books, that would be the case, the GM and Flood can only consume and destroy.

But in Crytum, it's not so simple. We know the Forerunners violated the Mantle the Precursors entrusted them with. They even rebelled against the Precursors. They would move entire populations to make room for their own people. They stagnated growth to weed out competition. The Flood could be the cure for that stagnation.


I'm more inclined to believe that the intentions of the Gravemind was not noble. That if it had been the goal of the flood to wipe out the forerunners, then why would it continue to affect other species as well? The gravemind during the age of the covenant does not care that none of them are forerunner, or that the forerunner's presence is missing. His mission is too feed the insatiable hunger, not wipe out the wicked.

It's much more likely that the precursor intended to use the flood as a weapon against the forerunners, but instead the flood altered both his body and mind. And what we have instead of the last of his kind fighting evil tyranny, we have a genocidal tier 0 parasite with the intent to end the diversity of life as we know it.

  • 08.15.2011 7:52 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: tinyohyeah

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
From the limited perspective of the Halo trilogy and and a few books, that would be the case, the GM and Flood can only consume and destroy.

But in Crytum, it's not so simple. We know the Forerunners violated the Mantle the Precursors entrusted them with. They even rebelled against the Precursors. They would move entire populations to make room for their own people. They stagnated growth to weed out competition. The Flood could be the cure for that stagnation.


I'm more inclined to believe that the intentions of the Gravemind was not noble. That if it had been the goal of the flood to wipe out the forerunners, then why would it continue to affect other species as well? The gravemind during the age of the covenant does not care that none of them are forerunner, or that the forerunner's presence is missing. His mission is too feed the insatiable hunger, not wipe out the wicked.

It's much more likely that the precursor intended to use the flood as a weapon against the forerunners, but instead the flood altered both his body and mind. And what we have instead of the last of his kind fighting evil tyranny, we have a genocidal tier 0 parasite with the intent to end the diversity of life as we know it.


A fair point. But at the time, the Forerunners were doing pretty heinous crap to other species whilst rebelling against the Precursors. With so many species' growth being stagnated, subjecting them to equality by Flood may seem like a better alternative. At least that's how I see GM's actions.

  • 08.15.2011 7:55 PM PDT

The gravemind is a fairer opponent. He defeats and kills you.

The forerunners took away cultures, advancement, even evolution of those they defeated.

Frankly, it would've been kinder if the Forerunners simple murdered every human.

  • 08.15.2011 8:00 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

And really, we argue about how bad the Flood is by trying to "devour and destroy" all life in the galaxy, but the Forerunners are the ones who accomplished that.

  • 08.15.2011 8:07 PM PDT

Cave Johnson here, we're done!

PS: If you are reading this comment while imagining my voice, don't panic. That's just a side effect of the testing.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
A fair point. But at the time, the Forerunners were doing pretty heinous crap to other species whilst rebelling against the Precursors. With so many species' growth being stagnated, subjecting them to equality by Flood may seem like a better alternative. At least that's how I see GM's actions.


The only stagnation I see is the limitations brought on by the forerunners, and with the forerunners out of the way the limitations on those species would be lifted. The humans would have a couple of evolutionary steps to take, the San Shyumm(SP?) would have to get over the whole elder thing but that won't take too long. I don't see why life can't continue without the forerunners, and why it was necessary to end all life.

All we have to go on is cryptum when it comes to precursors. The true intent of the precursors and the ancient ships with powder on them is still a mystery.

  • 08.15.2011 8:12 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The gravemind is a fairer opponent. He defeats and kills you.

The forerunners took away cultures, advancement, even evolution of those they defeated.

Frankly, it would've been kinder if the Forerunners simple murdered every human.

Frankly, even death may be a bit of a stretch. We don't know what happens after life leaves us. Is it a choir of angels? A great pit where everyone suffers? Or is it just endless nothing?

Memories are what we are. They are the sum of our experiences and feelings. When the Flood take you, they keep those memories. In a way, you still live on. We don't know if there is an afterlife. After someone goes, all that remains are their memories. The Flood keeps those memories. All of your hopes and dreams and experiences still exist. Creatures are shaped by their experiences, in a way, the experiences are all that we are. The Flood keeps that. In a way, you live on.

  • 08.15.2011 8:13 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

The GM is capable of presenting paradise as Cortana learned first hand.

  • 08.15.2011 8:23 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
The GM is capable of presenting paradise as Cortana learned first hand.

Paradise created from memories of a Forerunner.

  • 08.15.2011 8:28 PM PDT

BWO

let me see be human or become a walking puppet off flesh yea human

  • 08.15.2011 9:24 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

I can't see the Flood's goals as admirable.

The Deus Ex (soon to be trilogy) references what you're getting at cobra. One of the possible endings entails a humanity whose minds are all linked to a central hub (essentially the internet) with an A.I. in charge of the whole thing. Essentially, there is no privacy, but everyone has access to the knowledge of everyone else, to the thoughts, ideas, opinions, and inner workings of everyone else. Decisions that would have been made by the legislative, executive, and judicial are no longer necessary; it's an instantaneous democracy where everyone's true motives can be weighed and judged and decisions can be implemented immediately. While humanity is linked together almost as a singular entity, it also provides for individualism in that you are still you; your ideas, beliefs, and opinions are your own. Who you are isn't lost to the collective whole; but at the same time all of humanity is strengthened and the needs of all are looked after.

The Flood, while exhibiting similar qualities (at least at first) is not like this at all. These are, of course, my own opinions on the topic, but from what I've read the Flood seems to exist solely as an extension of a single mind; the Gravemind. Every time an entity is consumed, it is literally consumed and gone forever. For instance, although Captain Keyes' conscious lives on forever within the Flood, he himself (mind, body, soul, whatever) is gone. All that's left are his memories and those memories are exclusively available to the Gravemind. When individuals are absorbed, they don't become part of a collective, rather, all their information is just sent to a single entity who can use it how he sees fit.

The Gravemind turned MB by claiming that he was the answer to the biological inevitability that is death; the so-called third stage of evolution. That was a lie. His answer to death is no different than humanity's current answer; which is, simply, memories. The Gravemind is a repository of information, yes, but all that information is, is memories. Our dead live on because we remember them (I believe that the collective conscious of humanity is a very real thing). George Washington has been dead for over 200 years and yet he still lives on in daily discussions. This is the only "immortality" the Gravemind promises and yet his system is worse than our current one. Right now, everyone has accessed to deceased individuals, either because they knew them in life or because someone was able to share their memories of the person while they lived. The Gravemind would take that away (that "collective remembrance" vis a vis "immortality") and substitute it with only him being able to remember the dead,

So, no, the Gravemind's goals are not noble. A major argument against communism is that it sacrifices the individual for the collective whole. The Flood takes it a step further by sacrificing all life so as to benefit a single entity. That's hardly nobility no matter what moral lens you choose to look through.

  • 08.15.2011 9:30 PM PDT

BWO

i agree the flood may have knowledge but he does not how use it he only has one thing in mind consume and do what ever to survive

  • 08.15.2011 9:40 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: dibbs089
Essentially, there is no privacy, but everyone has access to the knowledge of everyone else, to the thoughts, ideas, opinions, and inner workings of everyone else.

I find that quite unnerving as well to be honest, do you not think?

Anyway, page 197-199 and 225-227 of The Flood describe what Keyes went through whilst being infected. The Flood peeled away his memories, essentially deconstructing Keyes as a person. You as a person are built from your life's experiences and your memories. The Flood takes it all apart, "brick by brick" until the person that those memories made up ceases to be. Keyes was semi-aware that he was being picked apart; he felt absences in his mind when memories were taken from him by the Flood. I think that alone suggests that the person does not survive but is instead pulled apart.

Page 301 in Evolutions, Dr Smith says something similar except that he says that it keeps your knowledge but erases your memories. Perhaps that means that the Flood strip mines your memories for useful information, removing all of the "clutter" such as the context of the memory. (For example, the Flood only needs to know that your ship can go FTL, it doesn't need to know the feelings of attachment you felt to the vessel, or the day you became Captain, etc)

So all in all, it looks like the individual is destroyed.

[Edited on 08.15.2011 9:56 PM PDT]

  • 08.15.2011 9:56 PM PDT

We will know soon enough, but it will require thought. Deep thought. Mendicant Bias must be found. The Mantle will soon follow.

01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01001001 01110010 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101011 01100101 01111001 00101110


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Thinking about everything about the Flood that we've seen, I'm beginning to think the Gravemind is a noble individual who has plans for the greater good.

First, let's look at what the Forerunners and Humanity are guilty of. At the height of their interstellar empires, they would displace entire races form their homeworlds so they could colonize them. Now I'm not sure if the Forerunners had a habit to de-evolve other species besides Humanity, but they did have the ability. Seems like a clear violation of the Mantle passed down form the Precursors. Heck, if the Timeless One wasn't lying, then the Forerunners rebelled and killed off the Precursors. How remains to be seen.

On a Biblical level, this seems to represent the Fall of Man to Sin. After a few hundred (thousands?) of years, God sends the Great Flood to wipe the slate clean of his mistake.

On a similar level, it seems increasingly obvious the Precursors used the Flood as a means to fix their mistake, the Forerunners and Humanity. Since the Forerunners and Humanity to an extent wished to keep the other races down and thus stagnant the development of other races in the galaxy, what better way to fix this problem with a parasite that effectively makes everybody equal?

Perhaps it isn't the most ideal method, but just take a look at the Graveminds/Prisoner's quotes.

"Arrogant creatures! Your deaths will be instantaneous, while we shall suffer the progress of infinitude!" -Said on High Charity

"I am a timeless chorus. Join your voice with mine, and sing victory everlasting." -Said on Floodgate

"Do not be afraid. I am peace; I am salvation." -Said on Floodgate

Again, not the nicest quotes in the world, but they do have a noble undertone do they not?

What do you think?


Nice, interesting connection. The intentions do seem noble.

Good and evil are irrelevant; perspective dictates the words' targets.

  • 08.15.2011 9:58 PM PDT

I would rather die than live eternal life as a slave.

  • 08.15.2011 10:03 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: dibbs089
Essentially, there is no privacy, but everyone has access to the knowledge of everyone else, to the thoughts, ideas, opinions, and inner workings of everyone else.

I find that quite unnerving as well to be honest, do you not think?

Anyway, page 197-199 and 225-227 of The Flood describe what Keyes went through whilst being infected. The Flood peeled away his memories, essentially deconstructing Keyes as a person. You as a person are built from your life's experiences and your memories. The Flood takes it all apart, "brick by brick" until the person that those memories made up ceases to be. Keyes was semi-aware that he was being picked apart; he felt absences in his mind when memories were taken from him by the Flood. I think that alone suggests that the person does not survive but is instead pulled apart.

Page 301 in Evolutions, Dr Smith says something similar except that he says that it keeps your knowledge but erases your memories. Perhaps that means that the Flood strip mines your memories for useful information, removing all of the "clutter" such as the context of the memory. (For example, the Flood only needs to know that your ship can go FTL, it doesn't need to know the feelings of attachment you felt to the vessel, or the day you became Captain, etc)

So all in all, it looks like the individual is destroyed.
This. The flood has NO reason to keep your memories. It needs your knowledge. Your memories are just spam that it just deletes.

  • 08.15.2011 10:14 PM PDT

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