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Subject: We should get rid of perma-bans.

I am a Floodian

They don't serve any purpose.

As long as alternate accounts exist, perma-bans are completely inneffectual and only do more harm than they do good. They don't can't stop any repeat offender because a perma-ban only lasts the amount of time it takes to move onto an alternate account, and start breaking the rules with that. Perma-bans didn't stop Pillage, Twitch, iuiz, and hasn't stopped John Cena spam, and it won't stop any future offender.

Besides, it's 3 months/6 months a long enough period of time for someone to learn their lesson. At least this way, members who learn their lesson are allowed to come back to the site, and contribute again, and those that don't, well... it doesn't change anything.

The fact is we have a justice system that doesn't have a death penalty, and don't have jails that can hold in anyone who wants to get out, so why pretend that a life sentence is effective?

  • 08.17.2011 11:59 AM PDT

Take me into your heart! Accept me as your savior! Nail me to the -blam!- cross, and let me be reborn!

Isn't there IP bans though?

  • 08.17.2011 12:00 PM PDT
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Posted by: God Of Men
Isn't there IP bans though?
Aren't there IP bans though?

I do not believe so.

  • 08.17.2011 12:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: bobcast
I hate you unless I'm drunk.

Part of the perma-ban is the pysch factor of losing your username.


Now with spammers and stuff it isn't a big deal, but tell me you wouldn't be upset if you lost your username and had to migrate to another account.

I know I wouldn't want to lose my username and have to 'start over' with a name that means nothing to me.

  • 08.17.2011 12:03 PM PDT

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Posted by: dmg04

Posted by: God Of Men
Isn't there IP bans though?
Aren't there IP bans though?

I do not believe so.
ip banning is only good for the known users who never change ip addy's.

IP banning of what achronos once said is only for the extream circumstances.

[Edited on 08.17.2011 12:04 PM PDT]

  • 08.17.2011 12:04 PM PDT


Posted by: God Of Men
Isn't there IP bans though?

I don't think so.

I see what you mean OP, perma-bans really don't do very much. I think we should keep them though. Removing them won't make the problem go away.

  • 08.17.2011 12:04 PM PDT

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With any ban people can create an alternative account. It's best to stop that one account rather than to limit a ban to say 90 days. This way if the person was planning a large attack, all of the alternative accounts created on the same IP get a certain amount of time too. Unless of course you create an account the day after getting banned. Thereby avoiding a ban, but only having the ability to respond and not make threads.

Honestly the system currently in place works the best. It properly addresses most "if, then" situations.

  • 08.17.2011 12:05 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Posted by: ImTriForceGuy
Part of the perma-ban is the pysch factor of losing your username.

Now with spammers and stuff it isn't a big deal, but tell me you wouldn't be upset if you lost your username and had to migrate to another account.

I know I wouldn't want to lose my username and have to 'start over' with a name that means nothing to me.
Eh, I've always wanted to change to Squirrel Dude.

Joking aside, that would suck. I ask you though, if someone cares that much about their username, and being recognized, are they someone who needs to be perma-banned? Aren't they the members who care enough about the community that they would actually change their behavior after a ban, especially a long one.

There is no reason to force them to migrate their account to contribute, when they have already proved that they want to contribute to the community in a positive way. You just make it harder for good members.

Posted by: God Of Men
Isn't there IP bans though?
Bungie is unwilling to use IP bans because of the potential for collateral damage. It's kind of like firing a shotgun into a crowd at a concert to kill one guy. You're probably going to hit someone else.

  • 08.17.2011 12:08 PM PDT

Hi I'm RT and I like to argue!


Posted by: squirrel dude
I ask you though, if someone cares that much about their username, and being recognized, are they someone who needs to be perma-banned? Aren't they the members who care enough about the community that they would actually change their behavior after a ban, especially a long one.
If long-time members are at the point where permabans are a consideration, they've probably already gone through this. I've only had two bans on this site, a few years into my membership here, and they were one- and two-months long, initially. So the process you describe does in fact exist, and permabans are, I assume, the next step when longer-term bans don't seem to make the message clear.

I've heard of someone being on a six-month ban, not sure who though.

[Edited on 08.17.2011 12:12 PM PDT]

  • 08.17.2011 12:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: bobcast
I hate you unless I'm drunk.

Let me ask you this: You know who Watermelon King was right?
Well he was perma'd.
Do you know what account he's using now?
My point exactly.
Notoriety works both ways, stand-up members and trolls alike.
I wouldn't want to lose my username and its part of the reason I stay in line.

A major troll will do the same thing, but if they get perma'd their name is lost, and they have to start over literally make a new name for themselves.
Posted by: squirrel dude
Posted by: ImTriForceGuy
Part of the perma-ban is the pysch factor of losing your username.

Now with spammers and stuff it isn't a big deal, but tell me you wouldn't be upset if you lost your username and had to migrate to another account.

I know I wouldn't want to lose my username and have to 'start over' with a name that means nothing to me.
Eh, I've always wanted to change to Squirrel Dude.

Joking aside, that would suck. I ask you though, if someone cares that much about their username, and being recognized, are they someone who needs to be perma-banned? Aren't they the members who care enough about the community that they would actually change their behavior after a ban, especially a long one.

There is no reason to force them to migrate their account to contribute, when they have already proved that they want to contribute to the community in a positive way. You just make it harder for good members.

  • 08.17.2011 12:11 PM PDT

cars, girls & cake all day everyday

Well, it...doesn't have to be completely new.
>_>

  • 08.17.2011 12:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Getting rid of permanent bans here is like removing the locks on your house's front door because anybody who is "really determined to get in" won't be deterred by a lock. And I think that's an accurate analogy.

Furthermore, I've seen users come back from 60 and 90 bans only to immediately resume whatever shock site, spamming, or other bad behavior earned them the extended ban in the first place. And it's happened at least 4 or 5 times I can think of right off the top of my head. In one instance, a user PMd me a very well-thought-out appeal message asking for his permaban to be lifted two years after it had been issued. When I lifted it, his very first post was a massively racist, all-caps spam thread in the Flood Forum. Obviously, permanent bans are useful for users (or, at least, "accounts") like this.

While you may be right about users determined to come back on alt accounts, permanent bans serve a clear purpose in other regards.

  • 08.17.2011 12:16 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

Posted by: ImTriForceGuy
Let me ask you this: You know who Watermelon King was right?
Well he was perma'd.
Do you know what account he's using now?
My point exactly.
Let me ask you this: You know who John Cena is right?
Well he was perma'd
Do you know what account he's using now?
My point exactly

[Edited on 08.17.2011 12:18 PM PDT]

  • 08.17.2011 12:17 PM PDT
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|Ask Your Ninja |
Any questions about anything, PM me. The only stupid question, is the one never asked.
"But, doctor...I am Pagliacci."
Posted by: bobcast
I hate you unless I'm drunk.

Just keep perma banning him. He'll get bored and run out of account names eventually.
Or maybe one day he'll hit puberty and grow up some.
But think of how many accounts he'd still have if he was merely banned for a few months at a time.
Posted by: squirrel dude
Posted by: ImTriForceGuy
Let me ask you this: You know who Watermelon King was right?
Well he was perma'd.
Do you know what account he's using now?
My point exactly.
Let me ask you this: You know who John Cena is right?
Well he was perma'd
Do you know what account he's using now?
My point exactly

  • 08.17.2011 12:19 PM PDT

"I don't care if it's God's own anti-Son of a -blam!- Machine or a giant hula-hoop!"

I actually agree with Foman. Basically, perma-banning is like deleting a spam account. Unfortunately, we are only playing 'Whack-A-Mole' with them. The moderators hit one account, then another one pops up.

I don't like the way we go about dealing with spammers/trolls now, but it's the best we've got.

[Edited on 08.17.2011 12:27 PM PDT]

  • 08.17.2011 12:20 PM PDT

Alt

As a permanently banned member, I have to disagree. I was an awful poster; only an extremely small portion of my posts were actually worth reading, and even those were of a lesser quality.

I was banned a few days before Christmas of '09, for quoting a spammer who explained how to use a proxy, thus exposing more people to methods of evading the ban system. While this was a stupid thing to do, I thought at the time, and still think today, that it was an irrational response to my offense. But then I realized that I had it coming regardless; I was certainly not a contributing member of the forum. So I took about a 4 month hiatus shortly after being perma-banned, due to lack of interest in remaining on forums I wasn't welcome on (my alternate account had only been recently created, and had little to no meaning to the name). Even after those 4 months, I only came back for a few days and realized I really didn't want to come back. I was too immature before being perma-banned to realize just how immature the majority of the forums could be (don't deny it). So, I stopped coming regularly, and instead just checked back periodically to see if the userbase had "grown up".

I never would have realized any of this had I not been permabanned. The consequences of my stupidity caught up with me, and caught up with me hard.

Regardless, I did feel a yearning to come back about a year after being banned, so I shot a well thought out personal message to Achronos (the one who banned me) explaining the situation in a means similar to I am now. I was by no means demanding, nor was I desperate. I requested that he consider unbanning me, and told him how I would completely understand if he chose to keep me banned. I never got a reply. As promised, I completely understood. (Even if he only missed the PM, I refused to send another; I wasn't going to appear to be begging).

So. tl;dr (if that's still popular here): I was banned a year and a half ago. I deserved it, and I realize that now, but only because I was banned.


All of that being said: For a dedicated spammer, banning won't mean anything; of course they'll have proxies, of course they'll just come right back. But for an average user who commits a wrong-doing, a ban can be a harsh but effective wake-up call that they need to straighten up, or leave.

Anyone curious enough to view my original account can see it here.

Oh, also, is Captain K-Mart still around?

[Edited on 08.17.2011 12:38 PM PDT]

  • 08.17.2011 12:20 PM PDT

I am a Floodian

^^^
To the user above me

Would you be any different if you were banned for a year, instead of being perma-banned. is a perma ban really the only way for you to change your ways, or would a long term have accomplished the game thing.

Posted by: ImTriForceGuy
Just keep perma banning him. He'll get bored and run out of account names eventually.
Or maybe one day he'll hit puberty and grow up some.
But think of how many accounts he'd still have if he was merely banned for a few months at a time.
Posted by: squirrel dude
Posted by: ImTriForceGuy
Let me ask you this: You know who Watermelon King was right?
Well he was perma'd.
Do you know what account he's using now?
My point exactly.
Let me ask you this: You know who John Cena is right?
Well he was perma'd
Do you know what account he's using now?
My point exactly
It's really only be going on during the summer, so not that many, if any would really be available to him.


Keep in mind, I don't want to get rid of long-term bans. Hell, year long bans are fine, but a permanent ban is silly. If the point of a ban is to punish someone so that they change their ways, then a permanent ban doesn't solve that problem. Members should be given the chance to return and contribute to the community.



[Edited on 08.17.2011 12:27 PM PDT]

  • 08.17.2011 12:23 PM PDT

Hi I'm RT and I like to argue!

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Getting rid of permanent bans here is like removing the locks on your house's front door because anybody who is "really determined to get in" won't be deterred by a lock. And I think that's an accurate analogy.

Furthermore, I've seen users come back from 60 and 90 bans only to immediately resume whatever shock site, spamming, or other bad behavior earned them the extended ban in the first place. And it's happened at least 4 or 5 times I can think of right off the top of my head. In one instance, a user PMd me a very well-thought-out appeal message asking for his permaban to be lifted two years after it had been issued. When I lifted it, his very first post was a massively racist, all-caps spam thread in the Flood Forum. Obviously, permanent bans are useful for users (or, at least, "accounts") like this.

While you may be right about users determined to come back on alt accounts, permanent bans serve a clear purpose in other regards.
Well actually I had my car broken into the other day, the locked door and closed window did nothing to deter this intrepid individual, as he cleverly used a nearby rock or his own hand to break my window and take $5 in change and a pair of cheap sunglasses.

Clearly, the window was not enough to deter him, so I should have just left it down all night. Then I'd be up the cost of the window replacement and the junkie would still have his coins and aviators. Win-win.

  • 08.17.2011 12:24 PM PDT

Hi I'm RT and I like to argue!

Posted by: squirrel dude
If the point of a ban is to punish someone so that they change their ways, then a permanent ban doesn't solve that problem.
The point of expiring bans is that.

The point of permanent bans is to get that account off of the site.

  • 08.17.2011 12:24 PM PDT

I don't always ban people but when I do I laugh uncontrollably...that's if I was a Forum Ninja.

Truth is a matter of perception.

The Button

Terrible idea, no offense.

  • 08.17.2011 12:25 PM PDT
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Posted by: x Foman123 x
Getting rid of permanent bans here is like removing the locks on your house's front door because anybody who is "really determined to get in" won't be deterred by a lock. And I think that's an accurate analogy.
That's not an accurate analogy. A lock is a general purpose access limitation that affects all users. A ban is the polar opposite: specific to one user. It's difficult to analogise because nothing in real life allows one to switch identities as readily as one can here, but frankly, given the simplicity of the situation, analogising is pretty -blam!- pointless.

I don't think permanent bans are at all useful here, but I don't think that's a reason to get rid of them. There are certain, few but significant, users who have been reformed by permanent bans. It gave them a kick up the arse to restart their "lives" under new identities with few, if any, knowing who they were. If nothing else, they're an occasionaly useful tool to hinder habitual, alt-abusing spammers. It becomes a lot less fun to spam up a forum when you've just had 30+ alt accounts removed from the site.

I don't think a permanent ban should be lifted under any circumstances, except in clear cases of moderator misconduct (which should't happen because most mods can't permaban). If you've done enough to get an account permabanned, that account should be gone for good, regardless of how contrite you are or how long it's been. Build a new identity, it isn't hard, and those that matter probably already know who you are.

  • 08.17.2011 12:25 PM PDT

I think you overestimate how many people actually bypass bans. It's just that you notice those people more.

  • 08.17.2011 12:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: burritosenior
I think you overestimate how many people actually bypass bans. It's just that you notice those people more.
Please explain to me the difference, or rather the significane, of the number of people bypassing bans and causing disruption in the forums, and the number of people we perceive to be bypassing bans and causing disruption.

I think you'll find it's the latter that matters a whole lot more than the former.

  • 08.17.2011 12:31 PM PDT


Posted by: elmicker
Posted by: burritosenior
I think you overestimate how many people actually bypass bans. It's just that you notice those people more.
Please explain to me the difference, or rather the significane, of the number of people bypassing bans and causing disruption in the forums, and the number of people we perceive to be bypassing bans and causing disruption.

I think you'll find it's the latter that matters a whole lot more than the former.
Because it does in fact stop some people. It doesn't stop those who really want to do it, but why would you let everybody through just because some get through? That's silly.

  • 08.17.2011 12:33 PM PDT

Key

what's the purpose in removing the Ninja's ability to perform a task like perma banning? What purpose does it serve to remove a feature they already have under their control that does nothing negative in anyway?

That's as if you took nightsticks away from cops. Can they be useful? Of course. Are they always 100% effective? Nope. But why should that mean they don't get them?

  • 08.17.2011 2:13 PM PDT

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