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This topic has moved here: Subject: How can the timeless one be the gravemind?
  • Subject: How can the timeless one be the gravemind?
Subject: How can the timeless one be the gravemind?
  • gamertag: qirahs
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Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."

I have seen this theory all over the forums for some time now, and i still don't quite understand what people are getting at.

Many people (myself included) believe that the timeless one will have a major say in the new trilogy, however at the same time people believe that he is now the gravemind. The gravemind from the trilogy formed over the course of 200 years on delta halo after consuming enough of the halo's native biomass, he was then destroyed after master chief overloaded high charity's reactors. The flood then tried to rebuild him on halo 04B, but failed as chief activated the halo ring, and destroyed the ark.

So the recent gravemind lived for about 200 years in total.

Now the timeless one stated ". . . our answer is at hand." Using a little brain power, and the press release for Halo:Primordium, one can easily come to the conclusion that the timeless one, and perhaps the precursors in general created the flood and released them into the galaxy to exact revenge on the forerunner.

Now at this point, people insist that the timeless one, after breaking out of his prison after a few million years, for some reason let himself become infected by the flood so that he could become the gravemind. (who was ultimately destroyed when the halo rings were fired.) Which if like me, you believe that he will be the focus in the next trilogy, does not make sense if it turns out that he was destroyed 100,000 years ago. And even if he was reincarnated as the new gravemind in recent history, he was again destroyed at the end of halo 3.

Why do people insist on him doing that? What would the timeless one have to gain from becoming part of the flood?

Someone enlighten me. . .

  • 08.21.2011 12:37 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: qirahs
Why do people insist on him doing that? What would the timeless one have to gain from becoming part of the flood?


The complete and utter control of a parasite that can stand up to the most technologically powerful race of sentient lifeforms in the Milky Way galaxy. C'mon dude, it's obvious the Timeless One becomes the Gravemind.

  • 08.21.2011 12:40 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Well some people believe the Timeless One to be a consciousness rather than a physical being which is how it jumped from the Prisoner to Gravemind. Or possibly that the Prisoner is a Precursor and ascended being able to transfer his consciousness to other things. Either way I think if there is a connection between the Timeless One and Gravemind it's that they are the same consciousness, not necessarily the same being.

  • 08.21.2011 12:44 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

The Terminals state that Mendicant Bias conversed with the Gravemind for 43 years before forcing itself into Rampancy, defecting to the Flood and betraying the Forerunners. I find it to be far beyond coincidence that the test-firing of Installation 05 at Charum Hakkor - and thus the release of the Prisoner - occurred at the same time and they conversed also for 43 years.

Gravemind states in Human Weakeness that he has consumed many AIs but spared one who joined him long ago, obviously referring to Mendicant Bias.

Primordium's description states that humans call the Prisoner "The Primordial", this is the same name Major John Smith uses to describe the Flood in The Mona Lisa.

The Prisoner is known as "the Timeless One", Gravemind describes himself as a "timeless chorus".

Gravemind states he has "listened - through rock and metal and time", the Prisoner listened to the humans and San'Shyuum at Charum Hakkor in his prison for a very long time.

The last words of the Gravemind is "resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed." The latter part is referring to imprisonment, a sentence he never deserved. The PRISONER of Charum Hakkor, locked away for unknown reasons.

Mendicant Bias given charge of Installation 05 (his serial number was 05-032), the Prisoner stowed away on the Installation he stole - the same Halo we discover the Gravemind on 100,000 years later.

"Child of my enemy," is a reference to Ancient Humanity - the first foe the Flood fought and lost against.

The Gravemind was in containment on Installation 05 and escaped when Penitent Tangent ignored his containment protocols. The Gravemind cannot have been formed after the breakout because there was no sentient life living there.*

In the Bestiarum, they have the Spartans labled as "Unclassified. You can tell they mean Spartans because they list them as "-skiska, u got it good!- sapiens augeous". You can tell from the "augeous" they mean augmentations. Another curious thing to note is that they label them as Reclaimers. Anyways, even though they're labeled as a separate people it still says "Ties with group - Human".

However if you check out the Gravemind which is separate from the Flood like the Spartans, it doesn't say "Ties with group - Flood". He remains his own separate species.

At this point, I want to credit Robert for what I'm going to say next.

In fact, in a physical sense, I don't think the Prisoner was ever physically present, but rather using the Gravemind as a conduit for his mouth. The giant venus fly trap we see in Halo 2 got completely obliterated twice, once in the Forerunner era and once in the contemporary era, yet the Gravemind still survived. And before you say the GM in Halo 2/3 is not the same as the Forerunner one, it is.

Three things: Firstly, the Proto-Graveminds are a physical entity that requires much more substantial amounts of biomass to be created then what was present at 05. Second, when the Proto-GM dies, everything in the local Flood hive else dies, and it can be killed by conventional means, which the real GM cannot. Third, he speaks as if he's extremely old and has experienced all things the Flood did 100,000 years ago and even before then.

The venus flytrap is a mouth organ, for him to speak verbally to the Chief and Arbiter. That was "destroyed" in Halo 3 during the High Charity explosion, yet GM survived again and begun rebuilding itself on the Ring. Installation 05, I believe was also glassed to kill off the Flood. He survived that too. And, according to him at the end of Halo 3, he survived the Halo detonation as well.

All of this indicates the Gravemind might not truly have ever been present, and that he was somewhere else, a long way from possibly even the galaxy, projecting his mind into the Flood.

Its this case with the Besterium that originally lead me to believe that the Gravemind was not actually present at Installation 05, High Charity or 04b, but rather the Prisoner was somehow psychically projecting his consciousness, or a part of it as the GM can apparently do so with individual Flood, to converse with Cortana.

This would also explain why he seems to exist as a non-corporeal entity.

  • 08.21.2011 12:45 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

*looks at ajw's post*
*prays for the timeless one original appearance in Halo 4*

  • 08.21.2011 12:55 PM PDT

Do you know what kind of hat I'm wearing?

A party hat; you don't get one. An honor will this party be, a party in your honor, for your honor. Some of Tfear's personal guards are going to be there. You'll be introduced shortly.

Prepare to die.

Posted by: ajw34307
In fact, in a physical sense, I don't think the Prisoner was ever physically present, but rather using the Gravemind as a conduit for his mouth. The giant venus fly trap we see in Halo 2 got completely obliterated twice, once in the Forerunner era and once in the contemporary era, yet the Gravemind still survived. And before you say the GM in Halo 2/3 is not the same as the Forerunner one, it is.

Could the prisoner be using the forerunner domain to communicate to the mouths (and other flood)?

I suspect that the proto graveminds are being build to access the domain where the prisoner is and establish a telepathic contact with the rest of the flood ... but that's just my little theory.

  • 08.21.2011 12:57 PM PDT
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Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: qirahs
Why do people insist on him doing that? What would the timeless one have to gain from becoming part of the flood?


The complete and utter control of a parasite that can stand up to the most technologically powerful race of sentient lifeforms in the Milky Way galaxy. C'mon dude, it's obvious the Timeless One becomes the Gravemind.


I know what you mean, but that is just the thing.

From the looks of it, the timeless one created the flood, and unleashed it on the galaxy. It wouldn't be crazy to assume that the timeless one, being a precursor, a tier-0 being whose species' technology was so advanced that the forerunner themselves barely understood their most basic prinicples, perhaps already had control over the flood.

In the little information we have learned from primordium, the timeless one living in the "palace of pain" (sounds like something right out WWE) released the flood on the halo ring to consume the master builder's researchers. Now the timeless one is on the halo ring himself with the flood, and yet the palace of pain is his stronghold. I'm going to make a guess that the flood are not attacking him, despite him being located in the same place.

Now in halo 4's description, we know that the new ancient evil is threatening the entire universe. What could possibly be that powerful, not even the forerunner, nor the flood were that powerful. The only thing that makes sense are the precursors, them being trans-sentient tier 0 beings, who were theoretically intergalactic (bestarium).

Now, the only precursor that we know of was the timeless one, whom if you are correct, obviously became the gravemind. That gravemind from the forerunner days died out when the halo rings were fired. So much for him.

Now if he was reincarnated as the gravemind on delta halo nearly 100,000 years later, it wouldn't matter as he died by the end of halo 3 anyways, without accomplishing much (compared to the old gravemind).

What now? Gravemind is dead, and by your theory, so is the last precursor.

Who can threaten the entire universe now?

  • 08.21.2011 1:00 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: qirahs
What now? Gravemind is dead, and by your theory, so is the last precursor.

Who can threaten the entire universe now?


Says who? The GM has been destroyed multiple times and yet it always survives. Read over ajw34307's post.

[Edited on 08.21.2011 1:02 PM PDT]

  • 08.21.2011 1:02 PM PDT

I do not think that the Halo that was given to Mendicant is the Delta Halo.

A replacement must have been made to replace the original installation 05.

[Edited on 08.21.2011 1:10 PM PDT]

  • 08.21.2011 1:10 PM PDT
  • gamertag: qirahs
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Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."


Posted by: ajw34307
The Terminals state that Mendicant Bias conversed with the Gravemind for 43 years before forcing itself into Rampancy, defecting to the Flood and betraying the Forerunners. I find it to be far beyond coincidence that the test-firing of Installation 05 at Charum Hakkor - and thus the release of the Prisoner - occurred at the same time and they conversed also for 43 years.

Gravemind states in Human Weakeness that he has consumed many AIs but spared one who joined him long ago, obviously referring to Mendicant Bias.

Primordium's description states that humans call the Prisoner "The Primordial", this is the same name Major John Smith uses to describe the Flood in The Mona Lisa.

The Prisoner is known as "the Timeless One", Gravemind describes himself as a "timeless chorus".

Gravemind states he has "listened - through rock and metal and time", the Prisoner listened to the humans and San'Shyuum at Charum Hakkor in his prison for a very long time.

The last words of the Gravemind is "resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed." The latter part is referring to imprisonment, a sentence he never deserved. The PRISONER of Charum Hakkor, locked away for unknown reasons.

Mendicant Bias given charge of Installation 05 (his serial number was 05-032), the Prisoner stowed away on the Installation he stole - the same Halo we discover the Gravemind on 100,000 years later.

"Child of my enemy," is a reference to Ancient Humanity - the first foe the Flood fought and lost against.

The Gravemind was in containment on Installation 05 and escaped when Penitent Tangent ignored his containment protocols. The Gravemind cannot have been formed after the breakout because there was no sentient life living there.*

In the Bestiarum, they have the Spartans labled as "Unclassified. You can tell they mean Spartans because they list them as "-skiska, u got it good!- sapiens augeous". You can tell from the "augeous" they mean augmentations. Another curious thing to note is that they label them as Reclaimers. Anyways, even though they're labeled as a separate people it still says "Ties with group - Human".

However if you check out the Gravemind which is separate from the Flood like the Spartans, it doesn't say "Ties with group - Flood". He remains his own separate species.

At this point, I want to credit Robert for what I'm going to say next.

In fact, in a physical sense, I don't think the Prisoner was ever physically present, but rather using the Gravemind as a conduit for his mouth. The giant venus fly trap we see in Halo 2 got completely obliterated twice, once in the Forerunner era and once in the contemporary era, yet the Gravemind still survived. And before you say the GM in Halo 2/3 is not the same as the Forerunner one, it is.

Three things: Firstly, the Proto-Graveminds are a physical entity that requires much more substantial amounts of biomass to be created then what was present at 05. Second, when the Proto-GM dies, everything in the local Flood hive else dies, and it can be killed by conventional means, which the real GM cannot. Third, he speaks as if he's extremely old and has experienced all things the Flood did 100,000 years ago and even before then.

The venus flytrap is a mouth organ, for him to speak verbally to the Chief and Arbiter. That was "destroyed" in Halo 3 during the High Charity explosion, yet GM survived again and begun rebuilding itself on the Ring. Installation 05, I believe was also glassed to kill off the Flood. He survived that too. And, according to him at the end of Halo 3, he survived the Halo detonation as well.

All of this indicates the Gravemind might not truly have ever been present, and that he was somewhere else, a long way from possibly even the galaxy, projecting his mind into the Flood.

Its this case with the Besterium that originally lead me to believe that the Gravemind was not actually present at Installation 05, High Charity or 04b, but rather the Prisoner was somehow psychically projecting his consciousness, or a part of it as the GM can apparently do so with individual Flood, to converse with Cortana.

This would also explain why he seems to exist as a non-corporeal entity.


nice post, you posted before i could reply to decepticon cobra.

I actually did read through all of it though. That part about the gravemind not being listed as having ties with the flood in the bestarium is something i never noticed.

You brought up some interesting points, i have to say that i do not believe that the prisoner physically became the gravemind, but somehow has connection with him like you sort of stated, after all, GM has been physically destroyed alot.

When cortana stated that he was trying to rebuild himself on the halo, i assumed that she was referring to the flood as a whole and their goal to form a GM. And as far as we know, The GM was destroyed at the end of halo 3.

Perhaps the precursor uses his advanced neural physics magical powers to speak through the GM?

  • 08.21.2011 1:11 PM PDT
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It seems pretty likely that they fuse; the Precursor entity becomes the central component of the smooth-talking Gravemind we know and love.

Y'know, like how Keyes was at the center of that blob monster in Halo 1.

  • 08.21.2011 1:12 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Sakanade
I do not think that the Halo that was given to Mendicant is the Delta Halo.

A replacement must have been made to replace the original installation 05.


Installation 05 was the one given to Mendicant Bias. I wish I could give you the page number in Cryptum, but the fact his serial number is "05-032" should make it obvious.

  • 08.21.2011 1:13 PM PDT

Yes I know that by his title you can assume he was the "monitor" of Installation 05 but I doubt that his Halo became the Installation 05 that we know.

There needs to be confirmation that his Halo was one of the 7 recalled to the Ark.

  • 08.21.2011 1:21 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Sakanade
Yes I know that by his title you can assume he was the "monitor" of Installation 05 but I doubt that his Halo became the Installation 05 that we know.

There needs to be confirmation that his Halo was one of the 7 recalled to the Ark.


Halo: Primordium is set on the Ring Mendicant Bias stole, it's highly possible that Installation 05 may be returned to the Forerunners at some point.

  • 08.21.2011 1:24 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Or maybe the Timeless One's Halo ring is never recovered.

  • 08.21.2011 1:28 PM PDT

7 rings went though the Portal but only 1 made it without breaking.

1 was destroyed by the Forerunner, so 4 remain at the Capital.

It kinda gets confusing if you think about it too much.

  • 08.21.2011 1:29 PM PDT

Cave Johnson here, we're done!

PS: If you are reading this comment while imagining my voice, don't panic. That's just a side effect of the testing.


Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: Sakanade
I do not think that the Halo that was given to Mendicant is the Delta Halo.

A replacement must have been made to replace the original installation 05.


Installation 05 was the one given to Mendicant Bias. I wish I could give you the page number in Cryptum, but the fact his serial number is "05-032" should make it obvious.


The serial number is not an indication of which halo he controls. He is in control of all the halos, but his power is limited to 5 at a time.

Look back at the citadel battle where mendicant attacked it with all the halo's (Or at least a portion more than 5). When he lined them up in a shape around the citadel other halos were given commands out of his control and lined up in a different order.

Source: Cryptum (pg 314)

"Mendicant Bias has exceeded it's present ability. It can control only five installations out of twelve. The others will maneuver to save themselves. They will attempt to access the portal."

And immediately afterwards...

"Seven of the huge rings-not including the one that had just appeared-once again rearranged their array. One halo from the pentagon broke formation, sending cascades of violet energy from drive engines spaced along its rim. It moved to joined those not in the contender's control."


The only connection that Installation 05 and Mendicant have is that it's one amongst twelve of the halos he monitors over (With the ability to only control 5 simultaneously), and that it's the halo used to test fire at Charum Hakkor.

  • 08.21.2011 1:36 PM PDT
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I just play for fun. MLG can kiss my ass.


Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: Sakanade
I do not think that the Halo that was given to Mendicant is the Delta Halo.

A replacement must have been made to replace the original installation 05.


Installation 05 was the one given to Mendicant Bias. I wish I could give you the page number in Cryptum, but the fact his serial number is "05-032" should make it obvious.


There were originally 12, 30,000 km diameter, halos built. All but one was destroyed. It joined up with 6 replacement halos that were only 10,000 km in diameter. It was also the seventh of the original halos (I think). Thus, Delta halo is one of the replacements.

  • 08.21.2011 1:46 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Caaaarrrl

Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: Sakanade
I do not think that the Halo that was given to Mendicant is the Delta Halo.

A replacement must have been made to replace the original installation 05.


Installation 05 was the one given to Mendicant Bias. I wish I could give you the page number in Cryptum, but the fact his serial number is "05-032" should make it obvious.


There were originally 12, 30,000 km diameter, halos built. All but one was destroyed. It joined up with 6 replacement halos that were only 10,000 km in diameter. It was also the seventh of the original halos (I think). Thus, Delta halo is one of the replacements.


In mona lisa it is said that 04 sections had the width of 1000 km,which means that all rings are 30000 km cuz a 10000 km ring would have a width of around 300 km.
In other words it's a retcon.

"The massive ring cut into view like a question mark that'd been fractured to pieces.Thousands of kilometers wide."

  • 08.21.2011 1:54 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: Sakanade
I do not think that the Halo that was given to Mendicant is the Delta Halo.

A replacement must have been made to replace the original installation 05.


Installation 05 was the one given to Mendicant Bias. I wish I could give you the page number in Cryptum, but the fact his serial number is "05-032" should make it obvious.
I always thought Bias was created with the specific purpose to hunt down and destroy the GM with the fleet he was given. Not to be a monitor of a Halo.

  • 08.21.2011 4:56 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I would just like to pop my head in and say nearly every line the gravemind says can be correlated to the prisoner which i will also say is not a precursor.

For example: the prisoner was found buried underground in a cage in suspended animation for countless eons. the humans Asked it questions about the universe for an untold time.

the gravemind says " i have listened through [/b] rock,and metal and time. now i will talk and you shall listen[/b].


there is a page worth of quotes his says that can be directly correlated to the prisoner. I grabbed every one months ago so cobra,tiny, or Ajw can post that if they wish.

  • 08.21.2011 5:05 PM PDT
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I just play for fun. MLG can kiss my ass.


Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: Caaaarrrl

Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: Sakanade
I do not think that the Halo that was given to Mendicant is the Delta Halo.

A replacement must have been made to replace the original installation 05.


Installation 05 was the one given to Mendicant Bias. I wish I could give you the page number in Cryptum, but the fact his serial number is "05-032" should make it obvious.


There were originally 12, 30,000 km diameter, halos built. All but one was destroyed. It joined up with 6 replacement halos that were only 10,000 km in diameter. It was also the seventh of the original halos (I think). Thus, Delta halo is one of the replacements.


In mona lisa it is said that 04 sections had the width of 1000 km,which means that all rings are 30000 km cuz a 10000 km ring would have a width of around 300 km.
In other words it's a retcon.

"The massive ring cut into view like a question mark that'd been fractured to pieces.Thousands of kilometers wide."


I think the canon explanation was that they were 10,000 km in diameter. If I remember right, Cryptum also stated that.

  • 08.21.2011 8:33 PM PDT

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The Gravemind on Delta Halo wasn't destroyed. He took High Charity to the Ark, where his fate is still unknown.

  • 08.21.2011 10:50 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: About 9 Grunts
The Gravemind on Delta Halo wasn't destroyed. He took High Charity to the Ark, where his fate is still unknown.

Well the Ark went booooom and shat itself.

If he didn't die then, that would be pretty lame.

  • 08.21.2011 11:37 PM PDT

Hello! You may also know me as Ijnekono. How you have made your way here I do not know, but welcome. (:


Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: About 9 Grunts
The Gravemind on Delta Halo wasn't destroyed. He took High Charity to the Ark, where his fate is still unknown.

Well the Ark went booooom and shat itself.

If he didn't die then, that would be pretty lame.

I like how you described the Arks destruction. Made me laugh quite a bit.
Edit: thread saved just for your post.

[Edited on 08.21.2011 11:45 PM PDT]

  • 08.21.2011 11:45 PM PDT