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Subject: Chieftain vs Cal

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Jonzx is playing right into the confirmation bias.

The issue should not be about whether Cal or the Chieftain won, it should be about whether Halo Legends should be taken literally. The latter was resolved long ago, with most intelligent people saying no. If we are going to take that scene as a true canon depiction then I guess there is no reason to discriminate Fal 'Chavamee taking on an entire army and winning in The Duel. I hope there is no one here that seriously thinks that Fal would in any way survive that encounter, so there is no reason why the Babysitter should be treated any differently.

  • 08.25.2011 8:51 AM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792
Jonzx is playing right into the confirmation bias.

The issue should not be about whether Cal or the Chieftain won, it should be about whether Halo Legends should be taken literally. The latter was resolved long ago, with most intelligent people saying no. If we are going to take that scene as a true canon depiction then I guess there is no reason to discriminate Fal 'Chavamee taking on an entire army and winning in The Duel. I hope there is no one here that seriously thinks that Fal would in any way survive that encounter, so there is no reason why the Babysitter should be treated any differently.


I have previously admitted that Legends does have some exhadurated moments, and I am simply responding to Deafaron's thread.

He took the time out of his life to create a brand new topic about an encounter from Halo Legends, and analyzed every single detail. I think that qualifies for taking Legends literally, doesn't it?

You should remove my name from your post, and add his. But you won't, simply because you and Deafaron agree on more points than you and I do. Lovely how the human mind works isn't it?

  • 08.25.2011 9:19 PM PDT

Jonzx, do you honestly believe they aren't agreeing with you simply because you don't share their opinions on everything?

Honestly, as Coma said, Me and Grey(Anton as well) Don't really agree on as many halo lore things as you seem to think.

Edit: yes I took time out of my life to discuss this fight as you keep bringing it up as a "flawless victory/ass kicking" in other topics despite people pointing at it otherwise. So, instead of derailing topics I made this one.

[Edited on 08.25.2011 9:55 PM PDT]

  • 08.25.2011 9:43 PM PDT

Why are you here?

lolHaloLegends

  • 08.25.2011 9:46 PM PDT

"Flag: It's right next to the headlight fluid"

I'd say Halo Legends shouldn't be considered canon cause it was absolutely horrible. I got an ulcer just watching that POS

  • 08.26.2011 12:14 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Jonzx5
He took the time out of his life to create a brand new topic about an encounter from Halo Legends, and analyzed every single detail. I think that qualifies for taking Legends literally, doesn't it?

Not necessarily. You can analyze something to find a figurative meaning, as can you analyze something to possibly show how ridiculous something is so as to point out that it should not be taken literally. In this case, Halo Legends.

Posted by: Jonzx5
You should remove my name from your post, and add his. But you won't, simply because you and Deafaron agree on more points than you and I do. Lovely how the human mind works isn't it?

I will not because he is not using this as evidence for a greater conclusion. He is merely arguing within the context of the episode. However, we all know that you like to take this scene as evidence of how a Spartan can paste a Brute in general, thus ignoring the flawed depiction of much of Legends in the process. In other words, taking what supports your position and ignoring what does not.

  • 08.26.2011 10:30 AM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

Hm. I personally don't delve too deep into the UNSC lore, I spend my time within the Covenant and Forerunners, but would it be too much of a stretch to just assume that Cal has a different fighting style? There were spartans who were the best at certain things, why could she not be the best, or at least one of the best, at hand to hand combat? That would explain her ninja like moves.

Just my two cents.

  • 08.26.2011 10:48 AM PDT

Not even a single one of your "points", has any backup. You are practically talking strait out of your ass. Wake up, you diddn't write Halo, you don't decide what happens. And you have the dignity to call me a fanboy?

And the funny thing is Joynx none of your points do. So yes I believe Devils is well within his rights to call you for what you are. I mean you're not only trolling on Daefaron but you're also on board the Spartan II -blam!- riding train it appears.

Your points are weak and lack any intelligence to them. I mean any well versed halo fan knows a brute can easily kill a Spartan. Oh and don't try to turn it around and say spartan III because they're smaller. Because we're talking about Spartan II's and Brutes.

Lest we forget you pulled the same B.S. in the Hand to hand topic trying to say a Spartan would beat everyone with nothing valid and you kept going in circles with your arguement. I'm sorry but for your lack of intelligence and dick behaviour in a supposed civil arguement already kills your arguement.

Also I fail to see any evidence that Cal would've won in a regular scenario. Considering the plot demanded she stay alive until the brute KILLED her while all she did was injuried the brute. I mean that's what really matters considering she got lucky near the very end of the first fight. I mean even I could see she had a hard time fighting the brute and didn't want to go hand to hand with it.

  • 08.26.2011 12:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Murderous Clawz
Not even a single one of your "points", has any backup. You are practically talking strait out of your ass. Wake up, you diddn't write Halo, you don't decide what happens. And you have the dignity to call me a fanboy?

And the funny thing is Joynx none of your points do. So yes I believe Devils is well within his rights to call you for what you are. I mean you're not only trolling on Daefaron but you're also on board the Spartan II -blam!- riding train it appears.

Your points are weak and lack any intelligence to them. I mean any well versed halo fan knows a brute can easily kill a Spartan. Oh and don't try to turn it around and say spartan III because they're smaller. Because we're talking about Spartan II's and Brutes.

Lest we forget you pulled the same B.S. in the Hand to hand topic trying to say a Spartan would beat everyone with nothing valid and you kept going in circles with your arguement. I'm sorry but for your lack of intelligence and dick behaviour in a supposed civil arguement already kills your arguement.

Also I fail to see any evidence that Cal would've won in a regular scenario. Considering the plot demanded she stay alive until the brute KILLED her while all she did was injuried the brute. I mean that's what really matters considering she got lucky near the very end of the first fight. I mean even I could see she had a hard time fighting the brute and didn't want to go hand to hand with it.


First you say:

And the funny thing is Joynx none of your points do

So you are accusing me of not having any backup for my points?

And then you say:

I mean any well versed halo fan knows a brute can easily kill a Spartan.

In a single paragraph, you managed to do the exact same thing you accused me of doing.

I mean that's what really matters considering she got lucky near the very end of the first fight.

So the fact that she dodged every single swing and skillfully counter-attacked shows nothing but luck, correct?

I mean even I could see she had a hard time fighting the brute and didn't want to go hand to hand with it.

After your post, I don't really think you can see much of anything.

  • 08.26.2011 3:34 PM PDT
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Live long & prosper,
Dracool One

Agreed. And I never did like anime :)

  • 08.26.2011 3:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Jonzx5
He took the time out of his life to create a brand new topic about an encounter from Halo Legends, and analyzed every single detail. I think that qualifies for taking Legends literally, doesn't it?

Not necessarily. You can analyze something to find a figurative meaning, as can you analyze something to possibly show how ridiculous something is so as to point out that it should not be taken literally. In this case, Halo Legends.

Posted by: Jonzx5
You should remove my name from your post, and add his. But you won't, simply because you and Deafaron agree on more points than you and I do. Lovely how the human mind works isn't it?

I will not because he is not using this as evidence for a greater conclusion. He is merely arguing within the context of the episode. However, we all know that you like to take this scene as evidence of how a Spartan can paste a Brute in general, thus ignoring the flawed depiction of much of Legends in the process. In other words, taking what supports your position and ignoring what does not.



However, we all know that you like to take this scene as evidence of how a Spartan can paste a Brute in general, thus ignoring the flawed depiction of much of Legends in the process.

So are you denying that this scene even contributes at ALL to the Spartan vs Brute debate? Even with exahdurations and inaccuracies, you can't change the fact that Cal did dodge every single attack, and did skillfully counter attack. She clearly demonstrated superior skill and training.

Tell me, exactly which part of this fight is rediculous?

There are also many other peices of evidence showing that a Spartan is superior to a Brute in hand to hand, but that's not relevant to this topic.

In other words, taking what supports your position and ignoring what does not

So which part of this scene does not support my position? Please let me know.

  • 08.26.2011 3:41 PM PDT

The only point I agree with is the lack of splash damage shown when the Hammer impacted close to Cal.

Just noticed. By saying this Jonzx, you agree to the point that if the battle was more true to lore/how stuff should've went down, Cal's counter-attack combo and kick off waterfall should never have happened.

Because the splash damage would either stun her, preventing the blows, or sent her flying (with or without injury), also preventing the blows.

  • 08.26.2011 3:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The only point I agree with is the lack of splash damage shown when the Hammer impacted close to Cal.

Just noticed. By saying this Jonzx, you agree to the point that if the battle was more true to lore/how stuff should've went down, Cal's counter-attack combo and kick off waterfall should never have happened.

Because the splash damage would either stun her, preventing the blows, or sent her flying (with or without injury), also preventing the blows.


First of all, even when taking the end of the fight out of consideration (The part with the close impact), you still have to face the fact that she dodged countless other blow's and wounded the chieftain before the end.

Second of all, after refreshing my memory by rewatching the episode, you will notice that when the hammer strikes, she steps to the side and moves towards the Brute. This means that she is pretty much as far away from the hammer impact as the Brute (The wielder of the weapon) is. I take that statement back, as the episode was not fresh in my head when I said it.

With that being said, even if we do consider the hammer splash damage to not have been portrayed properly, you still can't take away how many swing's Cal dodged, the counter attacks she excucuted, and the fact that the Brute could not even dodge a single punch or kick.

You also can't take away the fact that she could have dodged that vertical swing in many ways, including leaping to the side and recovering with a roll.

[Edited on 08.26.2011 4:52 PM PDT]

  • 08.26.2011 4:51 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Jonzx5
So are you denying that this scene even contributes at ALL to the Spartan vs Brute debate?

Not entirely. I would say that a Spartan did beat a Chieftain there, but not as effortlessly as depicted. The parts trimmed out are the artistic liberties that where granted to the developers, i.e. The actual fight.

Posted by: Jonzx5
Even with exahdurations and inaccuracies, you can't change the fact that Cal did dodge every single attack, and did skillfully counter attack. She clearly demonstrated superior skill and training.

You are correct within the context of that episode. However, that is not the issue. The issue is whether or not Halo Legends was at all accurate in its depiction.

Legends is good for conveying overall ideas figuratively, but at a literal level it is not to be taken seriously at all. If you do then you end up getting into all sorts of canon blunders.

Posted by: Jonzx5
Tell me, exactly which part of this fight is rediculous?

The whole thing, given what we know about Brutes. Equally as fast and agile as a Spartan, and stronger. John had to slip a grenade into the ammo belt of one in order to kill it, after riddling it with bullets.

Posted by: Jonzx5
There are also many other peices of evidence showing that a Spartan is superior to a Brute in hand to hand, but that's not relevant to this topic.

It is. Feel free to state them.

Posted by: Jonzx5
So which part of this scene does not support my position? Please let me know.

Once again:

The issue is whether or not Halo Legends was at all accurate in its depiction.
The scene supports your position at face value, but unfortunately the scene is a part of something of highly dubious literal canonicity.

  • 08.26.2011 5:18 PM PDT
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Cowboy up

First off I'd like to say that Halo legends may not be canon but a few of the episodes within played fairly true to it. While I don't take it all that serious I do think Cal beat the brute up initially and I don't find it outrageous, here's why: Cal attacked the brute first and there's a saying in spanish that translates, "He who hits first, hits twice." An average brute is physically stronger but just as fast as a spartan II, however, the thing that makes spartans so dangerous is their minds. Attacking the chieftain with such deft attacks put it on its heels and while not dealing major damage still drove it into a frenzy. The psychological effect of taking hits like that immediately removes any strategy the brute may have had and causes it to blindly attack. While a brute as experienced as a chieftain would fall back on its instincts in this case its still at a disadvantage simply because the fight doesn't last very long. If this were a prolonged battle the fight would have gone a little differently, but more of that in a minute. Cal makes contact swiftly and violently disorientating and frustrating the chieftain and proceeds to avoid hasty counter swings. While the gravity effect ignored in this epsiode may break canon lets just go with it for second. Cal continues to press her timely attack and manages to knock the brute off the cliff. Well executed on Cals part but thats the x-factor spartans bring (aside from their armor) its their training that allows them to analayze a given situation and react accordingly. I won't sit here and say their gods but their battlefield awareness comes from a sharp mind and is augmented by their reflexes. So yes I'd say she kicked that brutes a** by taking action and striking first. While only a temporary win, you could say the brute had the last laugh by killing her, but I would think any spartan would be happy that their sacrifice allowed the mission to be completed.

BUT, lets say there wasn't a waterfall, or the gravity effect did hault cals attack. You have a very angry brute pitted against a spartan and a squad of ODST's. Policy on confronting a superior enemy is either A) attack quickly with full strength before the enemy can act. Or B) fall back and regroup with superior forces. Since B isn't much of an option behind enemy lines, I think Cal would've continued with plan A. I can't imagine she'd get anywhere since brutes are so durable and the chieftain would get the short reprieve to gather its bearings. I would think Cal would be killed if only to give the ODST's time to get into firing positions. At that point even if she didn't manage to cause any harm upon her death, the full force of the squad's concentrated fire in open terrain surely would've resulted in a dead chieftain. The squad carries on with the mission, kills the prophet, and goes home just the same. While only my opinion I hope this helps make the fight plausible and not seem ouright folly like some presume it to be.

  • 08.27.2011 1:55 AM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Jonzx5
So are you denying that this scene even contributes at ALL to the Spartan vs Brute debate?

Not entirely. I would say that a Spartan did beat a Chieftain there, but not as effortlessly as depicted. The parts trimmed out are the artistic liberties that where granted to the developers, i.e. The actual fight.

Posted by: Jonzx5
Even with exahdurations and inaccuracies, you can't change the fact that Cal did dodge every single attack, and did skillfully counter attack. She clearly demonstrated superior skill and training.

You are correct within the context of that episode. However, that is not the issue. The issue is whether or not Halo Legends was at all accurate in its depiction.

Legends is good for conveying overall ideas figuratively, but at a literal level it is not to be taken seriously at all. If you do then you end up getting into all sorts of canon blunders.

Posted by: Jonzx5
Tell me, exactly which part of this fight is rediculous?

The whole thing, given what we know about Brutes. Equally as fast and agile as a Spartan, and stronger. John had to slip a grenade into the ammo belt of one in order to kill it, after riddling it with bullets.

Posted by: Jonzx5
There are also many other peices of evidence showing that a Spartan is superior to a Brute in hand to hand, but that's not relevant to this topic.

It is. Feel free to state them.

Posted by: Jonzx5
So which part of this scene does not support my position? Please let me know.

Once again:

The issue is whether or not Halo Legends was at all accurate in its depiction.
The scene supports your position at face value, but unfortunately the scene is a part of something of highly dubious literal canonicity.




given what we know about Brutes. Equally as fast and agile as a Spartan, and stronger.

This was widely debated in the other thread. There is no evidence that Brute's are equally as fast and agile as Spartan's, while there is ton's of evidence showing Spartan's speed feats.

1. Dodging bullets
2. Dodging point blank plasma shots
3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion)
4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track

The only evidence of a Brute's speed we have is when John saw one moving past his motion tracker, which as stated to have moved "faster than an Elite". That's an extremely broad observation, and had nothing to do with reflexes, which mean more in a hand to hand fight than being able to run fast.

And then this Legends episode.

1. If the writer's of the Legend's episode decided to portray the Spartan as being much more agile than the Brute, and Frank oversaw the episode's production, than they, the creators of Halo, have established Canon.

2. The fan's can to a certain point argue and debate about inaccuracies in the episode, but the fan's have limited rights when it comes down to deciding true or false. The creator's ultimately get to decide if Spartan's or Brute's are more agile, and from this episode, it seems that Spartan's have the agility edge.

3. Honestly, the Chieftain was not even portrayed as slow, or not agile. The only reason it seemed that way was because he was on the offensive, and missing his swings.


And yes, Brute's are stronger than Spartan's, but Spartan's make up for this with training. Yes, a Brute's society is based largly off of fighting, but you can't possibly think that a Brute's so called "training" is anywhere near sophisticated and organized as a Spartan's, who undergoes highly controlled, tactical training (The best in the galaxy, as stated in Fall Of Reach) from an insanely young age.(There is tons of Spartan "skill feats" to back this up)

This Legend's episode, also showed the martial skills of Cal, you can't argue that the kicks and punches shown are exahdurated as well....


However, the only reason the Cheiftain was beaten so effortlessly was due to the waterfall. If there was no edge for the Chieftain to get kicked off of, The fight would have lasted longer.

With the evidence I posted above, I think it is safe to say that Cal would win a prolonged fight, however with more difficulty than portrayed in the episode.

The hurricane is here in New York, so i'm not going to be posting for a while. I know you'll miss me...

[Edited on 08.27.2011 1:01 PM PDT]

  • 08.27.2011 12:45 PM PDT
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Yes, Brutes are stronger and can run as fast as a SPARTAN, but they lack the response times of one.

Master Chief was capable of dodging a few chaingun rounds wearing Mark IV armor. This requires(From 10 meters away) a 10 millisecond response time. This corresponds with the base reaction time of 20 miliseconds, combined with the force multipliers to make reaction time and response time near equal, and the reaction/response boosting properties of the MJOLNIR. This totals out at a 5 millisecond response time.

Combine that with 8 years of hardcore military training with some heavy focus on martial arts techniques, and it is very possible to beat a Brute in H2H.

  • 08.27.2011 1:00 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal
Yes, Brutes are stronger and can run as fast as a SPARTAN, but they lack the response times of one.

Master Chief was capable of dodging a few chaingun rounds wearing Mark IV armor. This requires(From 10 meters away) a 10 millisecond response time. This corresponds with the base reaction time of 20 miliseconds, combined with the force multipliers to make reaction time and response time near equal, and the reaction/response boosting properties of the MJOLNIR. This totals out at a 5 millisecond response time.

Combine that with 8 years of hardcore military training with some heavy focus on martial arts techniques, and it is very possible to beat a Brute in H2H.


Thing is, do we constantly see Spartans dodging point blank shots? No.

Hell, Linda. By Jonzx's logic, she should've dodged every plasma pistol bolt in the hanger instead of being peppered with it.

A spartan beating a brute in pure hand to hand is very dependnant on the two individuals and the situation.

And yes, Brute's are stronger than Spartan's, but Spartan's make up for this with training. Yes, a Brute's society is based largly off of fighting, but you can't possibly think that a Brute's so called "training" is anywhere near sophisticated and organized as a Spartan's, who undergoes highly controlled, tactical training (The best in the galaxy, as stated in Fall Of Reach) from an insanely young age.(There is tons of Spartan "skill feats" to back this up)

Jonzx, due to firsthand knowledge of your purposefully and clear twisting events of books, I require an outright word for word quote about Spartan training being best in the galaxy.

A Star Trek example is this. Jem'hadar(spartan's) vs Klingons(brutes) Only difference is both are physically equal.

Jem'hadar are literally born for war, probably the best/highest trained army in the quadrant, and have a motto of "Victory is life." They literally believe they are dead until they gain victory in the battle. Only then do they have the right to live another day or so on.

Klingons are a warrior soceity, they get training, but mostly if you are strong, skilled, and smart you advance the ranks.

Do the Jem'hadar win every fight (including hand to hand)? No. By logic of "training = win" they should. One klingon in DS9(worf) fought every Jem'hadar in a prison camp in one vs one hand to hand combat and won every match without medical treatment, only loosing to the best Jem'hadar. Even then it was "I cannot beat this klingon, I can only kill him. I refuse to do that."

I believe that's the closest reference I can find to Spartan vs brute. You cannot beat a brute into surrendering or submitting. You have to kill them. For a spartan to easily or quickly kill a brute in hand to hand is unlikely. Nor can they simply punch a brute in the back and instantly win.

[Edited on 08.27.2011 1:43 PM PDT]

  • 08.27.2011 1:37 PM PDT
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Linda was shocked/taken by surprise. Second, that was a point blank fully charged plasma pistol shot, which has homing capabilities. Surprise+Homing+point blank=hit. SPARTAN-IIIs can dodge plasma fire, and they have slower response times.

  • 08.27.2011 1:42 PM PDT
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I have qoutes that I have posted on the forum below, I still have about 70 more to go, but I'm working on it. But check it out.

http://factpiletopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9145&st art=0

  • 08.27.2011 1:44 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal
Linda was shocked/taken by surprise. Second, that was a point blank fully charged plasma pistol shot, which has homing capabilities. Surprise+Homing+point blank=hit. SPARTAN-IIIs can dodge plasma fire, and they have slower response times.


I did toss in edits.

Anyway, better example. Halo The Flood.

Chief got hit by plenty of plasma rounds and later bullet from the flood. He knew about the enemy and was ready. Jonzx describes Spartans as being able to constantly dodge these projectiles regardless of range.

  • 08.27.2011 1:45 PM PDT
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You do not understand the principals of combat do you? Fighting the Covenant and/or Flood in large numbers means that if you try to dodge every single round, then you won't be able to get a shot off yourself. Why dodge a single bullet when your shields can easily absorb it and you can fire back.

The Chief is more worried about killing the enemy than dodging every single round fired, especially because the individual shots won't kill him by the time that he kills them.

  • 08.27.2011 2:00 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Jonzx5
This was widely debated in the other thread. There is no evidence that Brute's are equally as fast and agile as Spartan's, while there is ton's of evidence showing Spartan's speed feats.

1. Dodging bullets
2. Dodging point blank plasma shots
3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion)
4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track

How does any of this relate to the Brutes though? It tells us plainly what Spartans can do but not what Brutes can do.

Posted by: Jonzx5
The only evidence of a Brute's speed we have is when John saw one moving past his motion tracker, which as stated to have moved "faster than an Elite". That's an extremely broad observation, and had nothing to do with reflexes, which mean more in a hand to hand fight than being able to run fast.

Right after that it says "As fast as him."

Posted by: Jonzx5
And then this Legends episode.

1. If the writer's of the Legend's episode decided to portray the Spartan as being much more agile than the Brute, and Frank oversaw the episode's production, than they, the creators of Halo, have established Canon.

This is not valid.

In The Package, Halsey is depicted as looking like she is in her twentys. This is obviously false as in 2549 Halsey is aged 57. Halo Reach takes place 3 years after The Package, and yet she does not look in her twentys.

In The Duel, Fal killed an entire army (At least one hundred strong) on an open plain where there was no cover. He was armed with only two plasma swords. He had to run toward that army, and apparently never got hit. No one in that army even has to aim, all they have to do is open fire in Fal's general direction and probability will do the rest. Yet he emerges unscathed.

Using your argument these instances should be taken as canon.

Posted by: Jonzx5
2. The fan's can to a certain point argue and debate about inaccuracies in the episode, but the fan's have limited rights when it comes down to deciding true or false. The creator's ultimately get to decide if Spartan's or Brute's are more agile, and from this episode, it seems that Spartan's have the agility edge.

This is the only thing which gives definite proof one way. Other things have indicated that they are tied and that it is extremely difficult for a Spartan to take on a Brute in CQC one on one. (In First Strike there is that scene with John, and then in Ghosts of Onyx there is one with Fred at the Centennial Elevator) Legends is not trustworthy independently. If there were other sources stating that things are usually this effortless in a fight between the two then I would not see any issue with using it then.

Posted by: Jonzx5
(The best in the galaxy, as stated in Fall Of Reach)

[Citation Needed]

  • 08.27.2011 2:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: superiorarsenal
Linda was shocked/taken by surprise. Second, that was a point blank fully charged plasma pistol shot, which has homing capabilities. Surprise+Homing+point blank=hit. SPARTAN-IIIs can dodge plasma fire, and they have slower response times.


I did toss in edits.

Anyway, better example. Halo The Flood.

Chief got hit by plenty of plasma rounds and later bullet from the flood. He knew about the enemy and was ready. Jonzx describes Spartans as being able to constantly dodge these projectiles regardless of range.


Listen, you don't understand this concept. Spartan's are capable of dodging bullets and point blank plasma bolts, yet they still get hit sometimes because nobody is perfect, obviously. This still does not change the fact that they ARE CAPABLE of dodging bullets and point blank plasma bolts.

Wolverine is CAPABLE of dodging bullets, even from point blank range, yet he still gets hit from time to time. It's called being caught off guard, or just screwing up.

Just because a Spartan takes hits from time to time does not change the fact that they ARE fast enough to dodge bullets and plasma bolts.


  • 08.29.2011 2:39 PM PDT
Subject: Brute Chieftain vs Spartan (Chieftain vs Cal)
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Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Jonzx5
This was widely debated in the other thread. There is no evidence that Brute's are equally as fast and agile as Spartan's, while there is ton's of evidence showing Spartan's speed feats.

1. Dodging bullets
2. Dodging point blank plasma shots
3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion)
4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track

How does any of this relate to the Brutes though? It tells us plainly what Spartans can do but not what Brutes can do.

Posted by: Jonzx5
The only evidence of a Brute's speed we have is when John saw one moving past his motion tracker, which as stated to have moved "faster than an Elite". That's an extremely broad observation, and had nothing to do with reflexes, which mean more in a hand to hand fight than being able to run fast.

Right after that it says "As fast as him."

Posted by: Jonzx5
And then this Legends episode.

1. If the writer's of the Legend's episode decided to portray the Spartan as being much more agile than the Brute, and Frank oversaw the episode's production, than they, the creators of Halo, have established Canon.

This is not valid.

In The Package, Halsey is depicted as looking like she is in her twentys. This is obviously false as in 2549 Halsey is aged 57. Halo Reach takes place 3 years after The Package, and yet she does not look in her twentys.

In The Duel, Fal killed an entire army (At least one hundred strong) on an open plain where there was no cover. He was armed with only two plasma swords. He had to run toward that army, and apparently never got hit. No one in that army even has to aim, all they have to do is open fire in Fal's general direction and probability will do the rest. Yet he emerges unscathed.

Using your argument these instances should be taken as canon.

Posted by: Jonzx5
2. The fan's can to a certain point argue and debate about inaccuracies in the episode, but the fan's have limited rights when it comes down to deciding true or false. The creator's ultimately get to decide if Spartan's or Brute's are more agile, and from this episode, it seems that Spartan's have the agility edge.

This is the only thing which gives definite proof one way. Other things have indicated that they are tied and that it is extremely difficult for a Spartan to take on a Brute in CQC one on one. (In First Strike there is that scene with John, and then in Ghosts of Onyx there is one with Fred at the Centennial Elevator) Legends is not trustworthy independently. If there were other sources stating that things are usually this effortless in a fight between the two then I would not see any issue with using it then.

Posted by: Jonzx5
(The best in the galaxy, as stated in Fall Of Reach)

[Citation Needed]


In The Package, Halsey is depicted as looking like she is in her twentys. This is obviously false as in 2549 Halsey is aged 57. Halo Reach takes place 3 years after The Package, and yet she does not look in her twentys.

That's an asthetic inaccuracy, completely irrelevant.

In The Duel, Fal killed an entire army (At least one hundred strong) on an open plain where there was no cover. He was armed with only two plasma swords. He had to run toward that army, and apparently never got hit. No one in that army even has to aim, all they have to do is open fire in Fal's general direction and probability will do the rest. Yet he emerges unscathed.

The army did open up in his general direction. The reason why he was not hit was because he deflected the shots with his Energy swords. We don't see him getting hit (Actually, if you watch very carefully you can see a few possible hits), but we can't automatically assume that he was not even hit a single time. He does have armor after all.

Right after that it says "As fast as him."

So from here, we get that a Brute's movement speed is as fast as a Spartan's. This is different from reflexes. As for reflexes:

1. Dodging bullets
2. Dodging point blank plasma shots
3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion)
4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track

And what another member posted:

Master Chief was capable of dodging a few chaingun rounds wearing Mark IV armor. This requires(From 10 meters away) a 10 millisecond response time. This corresponds with the base reaction time of 20 miliseconds, combined with the force multipliers to make reaction time and response time near equal, and the reaction/response boosting properties of the MJOLNIR. This totals out at a 5 millisecond response time.

Combine that with 8 years of hardcore military training with some heavy focus on martial arts techniques, and it is very possible to beat a Brute in H2H.


Yes, I know that this only tells us what Spartan's can do and not what Brute's can do, but realisticly, with all the information given, what are the chances that a Brute has reflexes faster than that?

This is the only thing which gives definite proof one way. Other things have indicated that they are tied and that it is extremely difficult for a Spartan to take on a Brute in CQC one on one. (In First Strike there is that scene with John, and then in Ghosts of Onyx there is one with Fred at the Centennial Elevator) Legends is not trustworthy independently. If there were other sources stating that things are usually this effortless in a fight between the two then I would not see any issue with using it then.

So we are in partial agreement here. In my last post, I said that with all the evidence, I think that a Spartan would beat a Brute in hand to hand, but with more difficulty than portrayed in the episode.


The best in the galaxy, as stated in Fall Of Reach

Something along those lines were said, I dont have the book infront of me, but it was when Kelly and the rest of them were about to jump. Someone help.

[Edited on 08.29.2011 2:52 PM PDT]

  • 08.29.2011 2:44 PM PDT

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