Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Brute Chieftain vs Spartan (Chieftain vs Cal)
  • Subject: Brute Chieftain vs Spartan (Chieftain vs Cal)
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • of 3
Subject: Brute Chieftain vs Spartan (Chieftain vs Cal)
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Must I also point out that Halo games are canon. This means Master Chief has fought and killed entire packs of Brutes on his own. The only reason he had preformed so poorly is because he was taken off-guard by an enemy he had never fought before. Cal was aware of the Brute beforehand, putting her in a much better position than Chief was. If anything, the Brute was a little surprised by Cal. Cal was also kicking, which is immensly more powerful than punching. A SPARTAN-II in MJOLNIR should be capable of doing 8 tons on a leg-press(Kicking a 1 ton exoskeleton 8 meters with no MJOLNIR).

  • 08.29.2011 6:23 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal
Must I also point out that Halo games are canon. This means Master Chief has fought and killed entire packs of Brutes on his own. The only reason he had preformed so poorly is because he was taken off-guard by an enemy he had never fought before. Cal was aware of the Brute beforehand, putting her in a much better position than Chief was. If anything, the Brute was a little surprised by Cal. Cal was also kicking, which is immensly more powerful than punching. A SPARTAN-II in MJOLNIR should be capable of doing 8 tons on a leg-press(Kicking a 1 ton exoskeleton 8 meters with no MJOLNIR).


A: games are canon, exact gameplay events are not. If so, we'd also have to consider chief possibly being an idiot who does nothing but melee and teabag.

B: Proof Cal had prior experiance fighting brutes, hand to hand or not.

When she jumped over the chieftain, that would've ended the fight. Cause he'd just reach up, grab her leg, and slam her into the ground.

  • 08.29.2011 7:32 PM PDT
Subject: Chieftain vs Cal

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Jonzx5
This was widely debated in the other thread. There is no evidence that Brute's are equally as fast and agile as Spartan's, while there is ton's of evidence showing Spartan's speed feats.

1. Dodging bullets
2. Dodging point blank plasma shots
3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion)
4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track

The only evidence of a Brute's speed we have is when John saw one moving past his motion tracker, which as stated to have moved "faster than an Elite" That's an extremely broad observation, and had nothing to do with reflexes, which mean more in a hand to hand fight than being able to run fast.


The transient contact was back,a shadow moved around the
same pillar John used for cover. It moved faster than an Elite,
as fast as John.


Halo: First Strike page 314.

So, no proof of a Brute being as fast as a Spartan eh? go figure.

  • 08.29.2011 7:44 PM PDT
Subject: Brute Chieftain vs Spartan (Chieftain vs Cal)
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

A: If you fight a half dozen brutes alone(scripted so no other AIs are helping you) then Chief in canon was able to kill half a dozen brutes alone

B: I never said she did. What I did say was that Cal was aware of the Chieftan's existence prior to the fight with it(She saw it before it attacked her). John was caught off-gaurd by the Brutes in First Strike, so a comparison is not exactly valid between the two.


Reached up and grabbed her? This assumes he had fast enough response times to do so, or that he had precognative knowledge. Did it ever occur to you that SPARTANs are more well versed in martial arts and that they have far faster Response times?

Prove that Brutes have even close to equal response times to SPARTANs. Not that stupid qoute about being as fast. That qoute is about their running/movement speed, not their response times.

  • 08.29.2011 8:33 PM PDT

Cal was just kung fu fighting, she was as fast as lightning, in fact it was a little bit frightening

[Edited on 08.29.2011 8:58 PM PDT]

  • 08.29.2011 8:56 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal
A: If you fight a half dozen brutes alone(scripted so no other AIs are helping you) then Chief in canon was able to kill half a dozen brutes alone

B: I never said she did. What I did say was that Cal was aware of the Chieftan's existence prior to the fight with it(She saw it before it attacked her). John was caught off-gaurd by the Brutes in First Strike, so a comparison is not exactly valid between the two.


Reached up and grabbed her? This assumes he had fast enough response times to do so, or that he had precognative knowledge. Did it ever occur to you that SPARTANs are more well versed in martial arts and that they have far faster Response times?

Prove that Brutes have even close to equal response times to SPARTANs. Not that stupid qoute about being as fast. That qoute is about their running/movement speed, not their response times.


Okay then, prove Spartans reflexes/respone times are faster then brutes.

Also, reflexes are only as good as the person's movement speed. You can have insane reflexes, but if you aren't as fast as that you will only be able to know you are going to get hit and can't avoid it other then being hit.

Edit: Another reflexes thing.

Your reflexes will naturally be faster/better when you and the other guy are standing still, and you KNOW what's coming. In a true combat situation, you and the opponent don't know what blow the other will use, where it'll hit, and so on. Thus your reflexes aren't as great.

[Edited on 08.29.2011 9:12 PM PDT]

  • 08.29.2011 9:05 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Well, since Spartans can obviously own Brutes in hand to hand anyday, then that means ODSTs can take on Elite Zealots without difficulty.

  • 08.29.2011 10:20 PM PDT

Oh, another thing superiorarsenal, It depends on difficulty. I think I heard in one level of CE, on legendary you face a swarm of zealots who NEVER appear on any other difficulty.

So, we can't say such a room in halo 2 had for sure 10 brutes because on another difficulty setting the spawns could be different.

  • 08.30.2011 3:40 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"Okay then, prove Spartans reflexes/respone times are faster then brutes."

Sure. In The Fall of Reach, Master Chief dodged a few chaingun rounds at close range. Assuming the turret was 10 meters away(I'm being a little loose on the distance), and chaingun rounds move at 805m/s, it would take at least 0.012 second RESPONSE time(Note response time, the time that you react to something and move to act upon it). 0.012 seconds is 12 milliseconds.

I've done my part, now prove Brutes are even close to being as fast.

"Also, reflexes are only as good as the person's movement speed. You can have insane reflexes, but if you aren't as fast as that you will only be able to know you are going to get hit and can't avoid it other then being hit."

Hensce why I have been saying RESPONSE times, which takes reflex time and movement speed into the equation. MJOLNIR is connected via nueral uplink, and has a force multiplyer. What this means is a SPARTAN's reaction time and response times become near equal.

"Your reflexes will naturally be faster/better when you and the other guy are standing still, and you KNOW what's coming. In a true combat situation, you and the opponent don't know what blow the other will use, where it'll hit, and so on. Thus your reflexes aren't as great."

But when your reaction time is in lower milliseconds, a slight difference isn't much. Actually, it has been said that SPARTAN's reaction times get BETTER under high-stress situations.





  • 08.30.2011 5:44 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"Oh, another thing superiorarsenal, It depends on difficulty. I think I heard in one level of CE, on legendary you face a swarm of zealots who NEVER appear on any other difficulty"

Heroic is the difficulty Halo was meant to be played on, so it is assumed the amount of enemies you fight on this diffuculty are the amount fought in canon.

Also, Halo 3, the Covenant, Master Chief takes on 2 seperate packs of brutes on by himself, regardless of difficulty.

"So, we can't say such a room in halo 2 had for sure 10 brutes because on another difficulty setting the spawns could be different."

What's on Herioc is the standard. And anyways, there are areas of campaign that have the same amount of enemies regardless.

  • 08.30.2011 5:49 PM PDT
Subject: Chieftain vs Cal
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Jonzx5
This was widely debated in the other thread. There is no evidence that Brute's are equally as fast and agile as Spartan's, while there is ton's of evidence showing Spartan's speed feats.

1. Dodging bullets
2. Dodging point blank plasma shots
3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion)
4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track

The only evidence of a Brute's speed we have is when John saw one moving past his motion tracker, which as stated to have moved "faster than an Elite" That's an extremely broad observation, and had nothing to do with reflexes, which mean more in a hand to hand fight than being able to run fast.


The transient contact was back,a shadow moved around the
same pillar John used for cover. It moved faster than an Elite,
as fast as John.


Halo: First Strike page 314.

So, no proof of a Brute being as fast as a Spartan eh? go figure.


You are really late buddy. I have acknowledged that quote, someone else mentioned it a page before you finished comprehending it.

I also talked about that quote. It shows that Brute's can MOVE as fast as Spartan's, not REACT.

Good try.

  • 09.01.2011 10:57 AM PDT
Subject: Brute Chieftain vs Spartan (Chieftain vs Cal)
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: superiorarsenal
Must I also point out that Halo games are canon. This means Master Chief has fought and killed entire packs of Brutes on his own. The only reason he had preformed so poorly is because he was taken off-guard by an enemy he had never fought before. Cal was aware of the Brute beforehand, putting her in a much better position than Chief was. If anything, the Brute was a little surprised by Cal. Cal was also kicking, which is immensly more powerful than punching. A SPARTAN-II in MJOLNIR should be capable of doing 8 tons on a leg-press(Kicking a 1 ton exoskeleton 8 meters with no MJOLNIR).


A: games are canon, exact gameplay events are not. If so, we'd also have to consider chief possibly being an idiot who does nothing but melee and teabag.

B: Proof Cal had prior experiance fighting brutes, hand to hand or not.

When she jumped over the chieftain, that would've ended the fight. Cause he'd just reach up, grab her leg, and slam her into the ground.


A: We can assume that at least some exact gameplay moments are canon. Like the guy above said, especially on Heroic, which is the Canon difficulty. Chief did single handedly take on packs of Brute's before. In your philosophy, nothing really happened in the Halo Games, but we still get the end result of earth being saved, flood being destroyed, truth being killed, etc...?? So how did Chief accomplish all of this if he did not kill -blam!-?


Your comment on how the Brute should have grabbed Cal when she jumped over him is absolutely rediculous. First of all, the Brute was in mid swing, and Cal jumped in order to dodge the swing. Are you telling me that the Brute can swing his hammer, and reach up to grab Cal at the same time?

  • 09.01.2011 11:03 AM PDT

Okay, so I forgot about him being mid-swing. Still doesn't remove the utter tactical stupidity of the move. Because, even if he was mid-swing, he'd know where she would land. So, she jumps over, dodging the swing, then gets hit upon landing by a followup.

As for halo 2/3, my comment is we cannot take those as "cold, hard facts" unless a novel is posted and we see exactly how in canon Chief dealt with them. Sure, we can say he killed them, but do we know how? Nope. Or, do we know if Chief bypassed a group of brutes and went into the next hallway without engaging any?

  • 09.01.2011 11:46 AM PDT
Subject: Chieftain vs Cal

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Jonzx5

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Jonzx5
This was widely debated in the other thread. There is no evidence that Brute's are equally as fast and agile as Spartan's, while there is ton's of evidence showing Spartan's speed feats.

1. Dodging bullets
2. Dodging point blank plasma shots
3. "Spartan time" (In times of stress, seeing things happen in slow motion)
4. Moving with speed too fast for computers to track

The only evidence of a Brute's speed we have is when John saw one moving past his motion tracker, which as stated to have moved "faster than an Elite" That's an extremely broad observation, and had nothing to do with reflexes, which mean more in a hand to hand fight than being able to run fast.


The transient contact was back,a shadow moved around the
same pillar John used for cover. It moved faster than an Elite,
as fast as John.


Halo: First Strike page 314.

So, no proof of a Brute being as fast as a Spartan eh? go figure.


You are really late buddy. I have acknowledged that quote, someone else mentioned it a page before you finished comprehending it.

I also talked about that quote. It shows that Brute's can MOVE as fast as Spartan's, not REACT.

Good try.


I didn't take that much to comprehend, a simple 20 second search on my book, but I had to leave to the movie theater and so, I wasn't able to post.

  • 09.01.2011 10:15 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Veteran Legendary Member

Don't be stupid like I was! Check to see what that Forum Ninja is saying to you!

"I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to the death to say it!"

"Tolerance is a virtue, and virtue builds character."
-Onyx81

I've always wondered what happened to the Spartans' heightened reaction time. It seems like it has all but disappeared.

  • 09.01.2011 10:41 PM PDT
Subject: Brute Chieftain vs Spartan (Chieftain vs Cal)

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

I hated that episode of Legends... so much.

  • 09.02.2011 6:22 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Halo 2 isn't dead jorge...... its just missing in action.
MnF Elite Force <>Brigadier<>

Brown coat 'till the day I die.
Sheningans!
Wake me...when you need me.

I'm not sure, but I lean towards that the Brute should have died after that fall.

  • 09.02.2011 10:35 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: HipiO7
I hated that episode of Legends... so much.


Especially the samurai Elites, right?

  • 09.02.2011 10:36 AM PDT

It's Halo Legends, I wouldn't take everything that's presented in it as engraved in stone. Me, I go by the novels, because they're the most realistic interpretations of the Halo Universe. Master Chief encountered one in hand-to-hand in First Strike and was easily outmatched, and mentioned Brutes as being severely faster and stronger than Elites. Brutes up close is bad news, and a bunch of kung-fu aint gonna save you from their incredible speed and strength. They may be clumsy berserkers, but their physical prowess overshadows any discrepancies in 'skill' in combat.

  • 09.02.2011 11:36 AM PDT
Subject: Chieftain vs Cal
  • gamertag: kkrotz
  • user homepage:

Spartans are the best!

  • 09.02.2011 12:30 PM PDT
Subject: Brute Chieftain vs Spartan (Chieftain vs Cal)
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"Okay, so I forgot about him being mid-swing. Still doesn't remove the utter tactical stupidity of the move. Because, even if he was mid-swing, he'd know where she would land. So, she jumps over, dodging the swing, then gets hit upon landing by a followup."

Hence the reason the Brute lost that fight. Less H2H training and slower response times. when will you comprahend this? You are using hindsight and applying it to the Brute, who didn't have it.

"As for halo 2/3, my comment is we cannot take those as "cold, hard facts" unless a novel is posted and we see exactly how in canon Chief dealt with them. Sure, we can say he killed them, but do we know how? Nope. Or, do we know if Chief bypassed a group of brutes and went into the next hallway without engaging any?"

Halo 3: Heroic: The Covenant- Twice you have to take on a pack of Brutes alone. You can only move on once you have killed them. The cutscene also shows you standing in the room deviod of Brutes, meaning you killed them. Are you saying that isn't canon? Halo games are the highest canon. That is scripted to happen. It is not game mechanics or gameplay. That is something you had to do. YOU HAD TO KILL 2 PACKS OF BRUTES REGARDLESS OF DIFFICULTY IN ORDER TO CARRY ON. Do you get it now? Saying that doesn't matter is like saying the Halo games don't matter. It doesn't show how he killed those Brutes, but it shows that he did, and relatively unscathed if you look and see how calm he seems during the proceeding cutscenes.


  • 09.03.2011 8:33 PM PDT
  • gamertag: TURY07
  • user homepage:

Cowboy up


Posted by: MisterBraz
It's Halo Legends, I wouldn't take everything that's presented in it as engraved in stone. Me, I go by the novels, because they're the most realistic interpretations of the Halo Universe. Master Chief encountered one in hand-to-hand in First Strike and was easily outmatched, and mentioned Brutes as being severely faster and stronger than Elites. Brutes up close is bad news, and a bunch of kung-fu aint gonna save you from their incredible speed and strength. They may be clumsy berserkers, but their physical prowess overshadows any discrepancies in 'skill' in combat.


Canon goes games then novels, it doesn't matter what you go by. Physical prowess can hide discrepancies but it doesn't make up for them. See david and goliath. Spartans possess their own amount of ridiculous speed and strength so while they may not be on par with a brute it still doesn't make H2H combat impossible. I'd take a cool, calm, skilled spartan over a massive and imposing brute any day.

  • 09.04.2011 5:24 PM PDT
Subject: Chieftain vs Cal

I was at a baseball game wondering why the ball gets bigger as it comes closer.......then it hit me.......
Objection!
Lmgtfy
lmsbtfy

Since evryone touched up on the main points, at the end, where Cal got a hammer to the face, I don't think it was deer in headlights moment. I believe it was slow motion showing how quickly she was able to save the ODST at the cost of her own safety. She probably had just enough time to react to that moment and that reaction was saving her squadmate. Unless you are implying that Spartan Time should have had play in the second encounter.

  • 09.04.2011 6:19 PM PDT

XxXD3LuuX3 X luuC1d17YXxX

Legends is an artistic rendition of things that are cannon.

Ex: Cal fought a Chieftan briefly and it fell over the water fall, then came back and killed her. That is the extent of the Cannon here.

  • 09.04.2011 6:40 PM PDT
Subject: Brute Chieftain vs Spartan (Chieftain vs Cal)
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: MisterBraz
It's Halo Legends, I wouldn't take everything that's presented in it as engraved in stone. Me, I go by the novels, because they're the most realistic interpretations of the Halo Universe. Master Chief encountered one in hand-to-hand in First Strike and was easily outmatched, and mentioned Brutes as being severely faster and stronger than Elites. Brutes up close is bad news, and a bunch of kung-fu aint gonna save you from their incredible speed and strength. They may be clumsy berserkers, but their physical prowess overshadows any discrepancies in 'skill' in combat.


and was easily outmatched

The Brute had Chief in a grapple. This was the first Brute that Chief faced. The one thing you never do is get into a grappling fight with a physically stronger opponent.

Brutes as being severely faster and stronger than Elites.

"Severely" stronger? No. Stronger? Yes.

As for speed, Brute's are said to have "moved" faster than Elite's, and Chief himself when Chief saw one through on his motion sensor. That does not tell anything about the reflexes Brute's possess.

Read the first few pages of this thread and you will see that Spartan's have superior reflexes.

and a bunch of kung-fu aint gonna save you from their incredible speed and strength.

1. A Brute is stronger than a Spartan, but a Spartan has superior reflexes. So you can take away that "incredible speed and strength" line.

2. Yes, a bunch of kung-fu will save you from an opponent who is both stronger and faster than you, but less trained. Your knowledge in martial arts will allow you to excecute precise, well-timed counter-attacks which utilize techniques that render your oppoenents strength advantage useless. Your footwork will counter-act your opponents movement speed advantage. And this is all ignoring the fact that Spartan's have incredible speed and strength of their own.

3. Cal did not use "kung-fu" in that episode. Kung fu is short for Wushu, which refers to a wide variety of chinese martial arts. Cal did not use a single Wushu move in the episode. She did some basic punches, backhands, and MMA style outer-crescent kicks. Nothing fancy at all.

They may be clumsy berserkers, but their physical prowess overshadows any discrepancies in 'skill' in combat

1. Huge contradiction there.

2. See the first #2 above.

  • 09.04.2011 9:03 PM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • of 3