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  • Subject: Blue Team vs. Noble Team
Subject: Blue Team vs. Noble Team


Posted by: superiorarsenal
Slightly better? S-IIIs got a 300% reaction time boost. S-IIs got a 1400% reaction time boost. Close to 4.5x faster is pretty significant. I still haven't seen strength feats anywhere close to kicking an approximately 1 ton exoskeleton 8 meters without using MJOLNIR enhancements.

Also, everyone on Blue Team besides Kelly has mark VI armor, as compared to the modified(in a bad way) Mark V armor NOBLE Team wears.


What's with this stupidity of "Oh they'll get the most recent gear, but the opponents won't." If Blue team gets Mark VI, Noble Team does. The fairest way to show the two groups is having them BOTH in Mark V, which they both had at the battle of Reach.

I've yet to see the quote about the 1400% reaction time boost.

  • 09.04.2011 4:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: superiorarsenal
Slightly better? S-IIIs got a 300% reaction time boost. S-IIs got a 1400% reaction time boost. Close to 4.5x faster is pretty significant. I still haven't seen strength feats anywhere close to kicking an approximately 1 ton exoskeleton 8 meters without using MJOLNIR enhancements.

Also, everyone on Blue Team besides Kelly has mark VI armor, as compared to the modified(in a bad way) Mark V armor NOBLE Team wears.


What's with this stupidity of "Oh they'll get the most recent gear, but the opponents won't." If Blue team gets Mark VI, Noble Team does. The fairest way to show the two groups is having them BOTH in Mark V, which they both had at the battle of Reach.

I've yet to see the quote about the 1400% reaction time boost.


So in your opinion, who wins and why? I've yet to read a post of yours that actually acknowledges a clear cut winner.

  • 09.04.2011 5:03 PM PDT
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I play by current incarnation rules(The most current form of somethining that is still combat effective) and standard loadout. Otherwise, we could debate forever on "What if so-and-so had this weapon!"

The quote is Mendez saying S-IIs have a 20 millisecond reaction time(0.02 seconds). human reaction times are 0.28 seconds. Let's use some math here, shall we?

The predicted results for S-II augs were 300% increase. 300% boost would be about 0.09 seconds. However, S-IIs have 0.02 second reaction times. This means they did roughly 4.5x better than expected in reaction times, and 14x better than human reaction times.

Now show me S-IIIs with this reaction time. Also show me S-IIIs being capable of doing 8 tons on a leg press(John kicked a 1 ton(approx) exoskeleton 8 meters, so he could move 8 tons 1 meter[Note this is without MJOLNIR). Show me S-IIIs running 35-60mph.

  • 09.04.2011 5:10 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal
I play by current incarnation rules(The most current form of somethining that is still combat effective) and standard loadout. Otherwise, we could debate forever on "What if so-and-so had this weapon!"

The quote is Mendez saying S-IIs have a 20 millisecond reaction time(0.02 seconds). human reaction times are 0.28 seconds. Let's use some math here, shall we?

The predicted results for S-II augs were 300% increase. 300% boost would be about 0.09 seconds. However, S-IIs have 0.02 second reaction times. This means they did roughly 4.5x better than expected in reaction times, and 14x better than human reaction times.

Now show me S-IIIs with this reaction time. Also show me S-IIIs being capable of doing 8 tons on a leg press(John kicked a 1 ton(approx) exoskeleton 8 meters, so he could move 8 tons 1 meter[Note this is without MJOLNIR). Show me S-IIIs running 35-60mph.


So everybody has Mark VI? Okay.

"Show me S3's with this reaction time." Well, as they don't talk as much At them, that's tough. Does it make it untrue? Nope. Though I still point at the bloody clear fact. S3's CAN wear MJOLNIR. This means the end results of the augmentations are DAMN similar. If it wasn't, they could not wear the armor.

Also, Please, please do a direct quote of John kicking a 1 ton exoskeleton 8 meters. I don't remember that at all.

Edit: I don't claim either side can win easily. Infact I'm not voting at all because the match is very close. Either side could win depending on situation and location. I see nothing that'd clearly tip the scales of a tough fight.

[Edited on 09.04.2011 5:27 PM PDT]

  • 09.04.2011 5:25 PM PDT
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Current incarnation and standard loadout would give NOBLE Team Mark V.

In Halsey's journal, she comments on how that armor they are wearing is a varient of MJOlNIR Mark V armor that has been modified and has some design flaws. I doubt it is the same mark V the S-IIs wore.

I don't have TFoR on hand, but I can point you to the exact time in the book. It was when John and the S-IIs were playing CTF with Marines in an older MJOLNIR varient(Most likely Mark III). John kicked it and it landed 8 meters away. It actually says 8 meters. Mk III was said to be much bulkier than Mark IV, so with a marine inside it would be around 1 ton in weight.

Nothing that would tip the scales? How about Each member of Blue Team has been fighting while carter was still a baby. How about Mark VI armor. Superior physical attributes aswell.

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: superiorarsenal
I play by current incarnation rules(The most current form of somethining that is still combat effective) and standard loadout. Otherwise, we could debate forever on "What if so-and-so had this weapon!"

The quote is Mendez saying S-IIs have a 20 millisecond reaction time(0.02 seconds). human reaction times are 0.28 seconds. Let's use some math here, shall we?

The predicted results for S-II augs were 300% increase. 300% boost would be about 0.09 seconds. However, S-IIs have 0.02 second reaction times. This means they did roughly 4.5x better than expected in reaction times, and 14x better than human reaction times.

Now show me S-IIIs with this reaction time. Also show me S-IIIs being capable of doing 8 tons on a leg press(John kicked a 1 ton(approx) exoskeleton 8 meters, so he could move 8 tons 1 meter[Note this is without MJOLNIR). Show me S-IIIs running 35-60mph.


So everybody has Mark VI? Okay.

"Show me S3's with this reaction time." Well, as they don't talk as much At them, that's tough. Does it make it untrue? Nope. Though I still point at the bloody clear fact. S3's CAN wear MJOLNIR. This means the end results of the augmentations are DAMN similar. If it wasn't, they could not wear the armor.

Also, Please, please do a direct quote of John kicking a 1 ton exoskeleton 8 meters. I don't remember that at all.

Edit: I don't claim either side can win easily. Infact I'm not voting at all because the match is very close. Either side could win depending on situation and location. I see nothing that'd clearly tip the scales of a tough fight.


In order to wear mjolnir someone with a neural implant has to survive the onboard computers amplification of their own movement. A regular human is too brittle but an S-III who has augmentations are durable enough to use them, the difference between the S-II and S-III is the users own strength that is being amped up. The cost heavy augementations of the S-II's carry better results with mjolnir then the S-III's. The cost is the whole reason they didn't recreate the S-II program, hence the cheaper augments and general use of semi-powered infiltration suits instead of mjolnir armor.

And why don't you just humor me and make an educated guess as to who would win in a level playing field?

EDIT:
Halo TFoR page 72: "John landed, braced, and kicked one guard. The man landed in a heap...eight meters away."

[Edited on 09.04.2011 5:50 PM PDT]

  • 09.04.2011 5:44 PM PDT
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I sense a level of S-III fanboyism.

  • 09.04.2011 5:46 PM PDT

Can nobody comphrend the fact the S3 augmentations were cheaper, and safer due to medical advances that in no way made the end results worse? Seriously, I've yet to see any proof the results were rose.

  • 09.04.2011 5:46 PM PDT
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The S-III augmentation results were the predicted results for the S-II ones.

HOWEVER

The S-IIs did far better than expected. As said by Mendez, and shown in my reaction time example.

  • 09.04.2011 5:53 PM PDT

My my, look at this thing I spotted Chief Petty Officer Franklin Mendez stated that after the augmentations the SPARTANs would only get better as they adjusted to the augmentations.

Which would hold true for S3's as well.

  • 09.04.2011 6:00 PM PDT

I was at a baseball game wondering why the ball gets bigger as it comes closer.......then it hit me.......
Objection!
Lmgtfy
lmsbtfy

I'm surprised no one said "neither why would they fight each other in the first place?" lol

  • 09.04.2011 6:00 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Can nobody comphrend the fact the S3 augmentations were cheaper, and safer due to medical advances that in no way made the end results worse? Seriously, I've yet to see any proof the results were rose.


Just like SPI armor was supposed to be as effective as mjolnir right? Ackerson cut all sorts of corners, I can only imagine but what I do know is that the S-III candidates weren't the cream of the crop genetically.

Ghosts of Onyx page 67-68:
..."Kurt discovered they didn't match the perfect psychological and genetic markers set in Dr. Halsey's original selection protocols."... "These recruits wouldn't be anything like himself, John, Kelly, or any of the original Spartan-II candidates."

They were augmented, with cheaper stuff. Better? Who knows, but what we do know doesn't look like it led to better results. The augments work with what you have and genetically they were inferior to the S-II's. Kelly was already fast but it made her faster, sam was already tall but he got taller. The S-III's couldn't have gotten equal results cause of their own genetics.

  • 09.04.2011 6:07 PM PDT
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Mendez also said the S-IIs were much better than expected.

So:

S-IIs better than expected+Got better with time

S-IIIs met expectations for thier augmentations+Got better with time.

Also, the proof is in the quote Tury just posted. your arguement is no longer valid. S-IIIs ARE NOT physical equals to S-IIs according to that quote. actually, is says they wouldn't be anything like them. i'm thinking 40% weaker in most areas. That puts S-IIIs as follows. this is with no armor.

Max lifting weight-1,300 lbs
Max Speed-30mph
Reaction Time-0.09 seconds

S-II:

Max lfting weight-2,100 lbs
Max Speed-40mph
Reaction Time-0.02 seconds



[Edited on 09.04.2011 6:41 PM PDT]

  • 09.04.2011 6:39 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
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"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: superiorarsenal
In Halsey's journal, she comments on how that armor they are wearing is a varient of MJOlNIR Mark V armor that has been modified and has some design flaws. I doubt it is the same mark V the S-IIs wore.


Yes and no. Halsey mentions that Noble has made field mods to the armor and how MJOLNIR was designed to be modular. That's all she says about it.

However, the visual guide mentions that the Mark V seen in Reach is a precursor to the Mark V seen in the first Halo. Would explain a bit when you look at the differences between the two.

On-topic however...it comes down to experience between the two teams. Remove anything that would give one team an advantage over the other.

  • 09.04.2011 6:52 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Halsey didn't say their armor was modified because they were weaker, she said that it was field modified (Jorge's UA helmet among other things) to fit their needs, something that she obviously disliked because she thought her armor was probably good enough.

"And they've made field modifications to my armor. I designed MJOLNIR to be modular specifically to avoid this."

It's just like that quote in the game where she sees Jorge's armor and complains about him modifying it, it's not inferior at all, if anything, it is superior due to the additions.

  • 09.04.2011 7:10 PM PDT


Posted by: Tury07

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Can nobody comphrend the fact the S3 augmentations were cheaper, and safer due to medical advances that in no way made the end results worse? Seriously, I've yet to see any proof the results were rose.


Just like SPI armor was supposed to be as effective as mjolnir right? Ackerson cut all sorts of corners, I can only imagine but what I do know is that the S-III candidates weren't the cream of the crop genetically.

Ghosts of Onyx page 67-68:
..."Kurt discovered they didn't match the perfect psychological and genetic markers set in Dr. Halsey's original selection protocols."... "These recruits wouldn't be anything like himself, John, Kelly, or any of the original Spartan-II candidates."

They were augmented, with cheaper stuff. Better? Who knows, but what we do know doesn't look like it led to better results. The augments work with what you have and genetically they were inferior to the S-II's. Kelly was already fast but it made her faster, sam was already tall but he got taller. The S-III's couldn't have gotten equal results cause of their own genetics.


I don't really think that anyone person in here is entirely right about the argument between the quality of the SIIs and the SIIIs, but this post is accurate. The majority of the IIIs are not anywhere near the genetics of the IIs and that will make them inferior in some ways, however they're not automatically inferior to the IIs just because they're a Spartan III. And that is certainly not true of Noble Team. The teams like Noble were taken out of the suicide missions and put into special teams because they were exactly the same as the SIIs or pretty damn well near it.

So you have no basis saying that Noble Team is inferior to Blue Team because the majority of the Spartan IIIs don't match up to the genetic parameters of the Spartan II program. And the augmentations are exactly the same. Neither the augmentations used on the IIIs or the IIs is better, except in the sense that those used on the IIIs provided a much, much, much higher survival rate, but even that had more to do with advances in medicine and technology than the catalysts of the augments themselves.

  • 09.04.2011 7:42 PM PDT

Cave Johnson here, we're done!

PS: If you are reading this comment while imagining my voice, don't panic. That's just a side effect of the testing.


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
It's just like that quote in the game where she sees Jorge's armor and complains about him modifying it, it's not inferior at all, if anything, it is superior due to the additions.


Not necessarily superior, the reasoning behind keeping it modular is to keep it from being "Cluttered" and making it easily flexible.

The Additional pieces may be added protection while decreasing the flexibility and agility. The intended results of each little armor piece is debatable, but it's not necessarily superior.

Then again, the modular design of MJOLNIR is just to keep things simple, additional pieces can have their pro's and cons.

  • 09.04.2011 7:44 PM PDT
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Where does it say NOBLE Team was taken out because they were just like S-IIs? Proof that the augments are exactly the same?

Blue Team is superior physically to NOBLE Team. They also have superior armor(Mark VI). They also have a substantially larger amount of experience to NOBLE Team. And nowhere have I seen feats from the members of NOBLE Team compare to the feats of Blue Team.

  • 09.04.2011 7:49 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

"The way these others move...They're obviously augmented."

"Are they all Spartan-II's?"

Halsey on Noble Team after meeting them at SWORD Base.

Now, on the matter of Noble being inferior to the Spartan II's, let me remind you of Kurt's communique to Mendez.


<<ECMPP header info excised for brevity>>....... 30. May. 2545

Franklin Mendez
SCPO, UNSCN/ SPECWARCOM

We've been lucky with 8 so far--very lucky--to get 312 out directly after training. An opportunity like that is no liable to happen ever again. And we were extremely lucky to get 320 out all after CARTWHEEL--and I hope her luck has held up--but--

Now that I've had an opportunity to look over the data on TORPEDO. it looks like it's going to be a meat grinder on par with PROMETEUS. No doubt we'll be able to absorb approx. 1.08% total strength of the combat element directly into base personnel with this kind of OP, but there are a couple more I'd like to get out into the field early | long term deep reconnaissance--specifically 170 and 091.

Even though we may be starting to push credibility with Ackerson and the rest of the grinning skulls by assigning so many of the cat 2s to non-combat roles--Ackerson has stated implicitly that he wants them all in the field--I don't believe they have any reason to complain. I do get the feeling that Ackerson would gladly assign members of his own family to a suicide mission if he could find an appropriately high value target to send them against however.

So Ackerson wants his heads--and we'll give them to him--just not all of them. You know as well as do I that we wind up with some that she would have been chosen--not just kids unlucky enough to survive a glassing. Orders are still being followed and those Spartans are in the field, but they are armed as SPARTANS--and they are making a difference. We are bending the rules here--not breaking them.
Anyways--I believe our recon teams have proven their effectiveness|the fact that they are receiving local, unsolicited support proves this out.

Kurt Ambrose
LCDR, UNSCN / SPECWARCOM

  • 09.04.2011 8:15 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal

Where does it say NOBLE Team was taken out because they were just like S-IIs? Proof that the augments are exactly the same?

Blue Team is superior physically to NOBLE Team. They also have superior armor(Mark VI). They also have a substantially larger amount of experience to NOBLE Team. And nowhere have I seen feats from the members of NOBLE Team compare to the feats of Blue Team.


Read 'em weep, pal! Very end of that little letter. Why include that statement in marketing material for Reach if it was not meant to be implied that Noble are some of the very Spartans that Kurt is referring to that Halsey would have picked?

The augmentations achieved exactly the same things. Have you actually read the list of augmentations that the SIIIs were given in GoO?

Blue is not physically superior to Noble, comparing is the members of Blue Team to Noble Team is like comparing two or more SIIs, they may stand out more in certain areas, but fundamentally they are all the same physically.
And so what if Blue has Mark VI? That does not in any way reflect on who is better or not. For the sake of this scenario was are saying they have the exact same armor, so either Noble has Mark VI or Blue still has Mark V, doesn't matter.

Well no duh, Noble Team's characters haven't been around for nearly as long as Blue Team has, of course we will have more documented of what Blue Team has done. Just because we haven't what Noble can do doesn't mean that they suck!

  • 09.04.2011 8:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: superiorarsenal

Where does it say NOBLE Team was taken out because they were just like S-IIs? Proof that the augments are exactly the same?

Blue Team is superior physically to NOBLE Team. They also have superior armor(Mark VI). They also have a substantially larger amount of experience to NOBLE Team. And nowhere have I seen feats from the members of NOBLE Team compare to the feats of Blue Team.


Read 'em weep, pal! Very end of that little letter. Why include that statement in marketing material for Reach if it was not meant to be implied that Noble are some of the very Spartans that Kurt is referring to that Halsey would have picked?

The augmentations achieved exactly the same things. Have you actually read the list of augmentations that the SIIIs were given in GoO?

Blue is not physically superior to Noble, comparing is the members of Blue Team to Noble Team is like comparing two or more SIIs, they may stand out more in certain areas, but fundamentally they are all the same physically.
And so what if Blue has Mark VI? That does not in any way reflect on who is better or not. For the sake of this scenario was are saying they have the exact same armor, so either Noble has Mark VI or Blue still has Mark V, doesn't matter.

Well no duh, Noble Team's characters haven't been around for nearly as long as Blue Team has, of course we will have more documented of what Blue Team has done. Just because we haven't what Noble can do doesn't mean that they suck!


Kurt selected a small few who excelled by themselves or in small teams. It wouldn't make sense to send these specialists on suicide missions where they'd be cannon fodder. Any other implications are purely speculation.

The augmentations are not exactly the same, with the exception of the carbide ceramic ossification(unbreakable bones) and muscular protein(muscle density), they're all under different labels. A few result in the same thing (better reaction times and vision) but some augments are unique to one or the other. S-II's have the thyroid implant which grants them the enhanced height and muscles (making them physically superior) among other things it reduces sex drive as well. S-III's for gamma company got an augment that made them more aggressive and fight harder the more dangerous a fight became.

So you are incorrect, if they were the same physically then noble team would look similar to jorge physically. The augments are different, noble team was together not because of their physical nature but because they were skilled operators. Kurt took notice and seperated the few that stood above the rest because he thought they would better serve outside of the typical S-III suicide mission.

  • 09.04.2011 9:59 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Tury07
So you are incorrect, if they were the same physically then noble team would look similar to jorge physically. The augments are different, noble team was together not because of their physical nature but because they were skilled operators. Kurt took notice and seperated the few that stood above the rest because he thought they would better serve outside of the typical S-III suicide mission.


Jorge is actually bigger than the average Spartan-II.

  • 09.04.2011 10:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Tury07
So you are incorrect, if they were the same physically then noble team would look similar to jorge physically. The augments are different, noble team was together not because of their physical nature but because they were skilled operators. Kurt took notice and seperated the few that stood above the rest because he thought they would better serve outside of the typical S-III suicide mission.


Jorge is actually bigger than the average Spartan-II.


Hence the word "similar", not exactly like Jorge.

  • 09.04.2011 10:06 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Tury07

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Tury07
So you are incorrect, if they were the same physically then noble team would look similar to jorge physically. The augments are different, noble team was together not because of their physical nature but because they were skilled operators. Kurt took notice and seperated the few that stood above the rest because he thought they would better serve outside of the typical S-III suicide mission.


Jorge is actually bigger than the average Spartan-II.


Hence the word "similar", not exactly like Jorge.

Not even so much similarly, they would still be built more like Chief, which they are.

  • 09.04.2011 10:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Tury07

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Tury07
So you are incorrect, if they were the same physically then noble team would look similar to jorge physically. The augments are different, noble team was together not because of their physical nature but because they were skilled operators. Kurt took notice and seperated the few that stood above the rest because he thought they would better serve outside of the typical S-III suicide mission.


Jorge is actually bigger than the average Spartan-II.


Hence the word "similar", not exactly like Jorge.

Not even so much similarly, they would still be built more like Chief, which they are.


Its easy to mix up a question of inches but look at it this way, in armor, the average S-II is about 7ft tall jorge is upwards of that cause he's always been big (like sam). But the average S-III in armor is around 6ft 9in. The comparison I'm making is that an S-II isn't as dwarfed next Jorge as an S-III is. We're talking approximate here so your arguement is as valid as mine due to lack of evidence. My main point was that S-II's are larger due to a thyroid aumentation and Jorge is a very large example of that.

  • 09.04.2011 10:32 PM PDT