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  • Subject: Blue Team vs. Noble Team
Subject: Blue Team vs. Noble Team

"I'm afraid of the man I'll become if I lay my life down for the people I don't even care for"

I would say blue team!


Posted by: RaMpAnT__117

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: RaMpAnT__117
Chief is about 7'4", can't recall the height difference I made but it was from reading The Flood and First Strike. I'd check them but searching through both for height references will take me hours.

Plus, it's backed by all the data contained in CASTLE BASE in the books and Halsey's journal. S-III's were far less capable specimens to start with, didn't receive lifetime training like the S-II's did, AND had far less substantial augmentations, so it's safe to say the S-II's were far more capable, much stronger, much more resilient and much taller than S-III's.


Spartans III's were trained from the age of 4-6, hell, Alpha company recruits were forced to para-drop from a Pelican on their first night at Onyx.

Yet they were expendable and had much, much less restrictions in physical requirements than the S-II candidate program. S-II's were hand picked, while S-III's were chosen for meeting general standards. Why else did the SIII program have companies of almost 300 while total spartan II's numbered less than a single SIII company?

  • 09.05.2011 12:52 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: RaMpAnT__117

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: RaMpAnT__117
Chief is about 7'4", can't recall the height difference I made but it was from reading The Flood and First Strike. I'd check them but searching through both for height references will take me hours.

Plus, it's backed by all the data contained in CASTLE BASE in the books and Halsey's journal. S-III's were far less capable specimens to start with, didn't receive lifetime training like the S-II's did, AND had far less substantial augmentations, so it's safe to say the S-II's were far more capable, much stronger, much more resilient and much taller than S-III's.


Spartans III's were trained from the age of 4-6, hell, Alpha company recruits were forced to para-drop from a Pelican on their first night at Onyx.

Yet they were expendable and had much, much less restrictions in physical requirements than the S-II candidate program. S-II's were hand picked, while S-III's were chosen for meeting general standards. Why else did the SIII program have companies of almost 300 while total spartan II's numbered less than a single SIII company?


They originally planned for 150 Spartan II's, but their facilities could only hold 75 of them along with their budget, besides, the Spartan III's did have parameters too, not all the kids could join (otherwise they would have gotten a way bigger number of them)

  • 09.05.2011 12:55 PM PDT


Posted by: RaMpAnT__117

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: RaMpAnT__117
Chief is about 7'4", can't recall the height difference I made but it was from reading The Flood and First Strike. I'd check them but searching through both for height references will take me hours.

Plus, it's backed by all the data contained in CASTLE BASE in the books and Halsey's journal. S-III's were far less capable specimens to start with, didn't receive lifetime training like the S-II's did, AND had far less substantial augmentations, so it's safe to say the S-II's were far more capable, much stronger, much more resilient and much taller than S-III's.


Spartans III's were trained from the age of 4-6, hell, Alpha company recruits were forced to para-drop from a Pelican on their first night at Onyx.

Yet they were expendable and had much, much less restrictions in physical requirements than the S-II candidate program. S-II's were hand picked, while S-III's were chosen for meeting general standards. Why else did the SIII program have companies of almost 300 while total spartan II's numbered less than a single SIII company?


A: PROVE, with DIRECT quotes from the books the S3's were trained as expenable soldiers. You can't. The ONLY people who viewed them as such was Ackerson and the detached ONI officers.
B: Much much less restrictions? More like "Slightly less".
C: Note the original amount that the S2 program was supposed to have was... 150? Given general population of the entire human race, 300 is a pretty limited selection. If you'd ever bother noting, Ackerson wanted 1000 spartans in Beta, but genetic limitations (and slightly budget) only caused around 300.

  • 09.05.2011 12:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: RaMpAnT__117
Chief is about 7'4", can't recall the height difference I made but it was from reading The Flood and First Strike. I'd check them but searching through both for height references will take me hours.

Plus, it's backed by all the data contained in CASTLE BASE in the books and Halsey's journal. S-III's were far less capable specimens to start with, didn't receive lifetime training like the S-II's did, AND had far less substantial augmentations, so it's safe to say the S-II's were far more capable, much stronger, much more resilient and much taller than S-III's.


Less capable? Uh huh...

Lifetime training what? Even if they didn't get as long a training period, it's labeled better. I'd say a lot of extra academics got cut in favor of military theme training. Mendez and Kurt would get the best training in the period of time possible.

Far less substantial augmentations? I'd say we've proven the augmentations are pretty similar results wise.

So, it's safe to say S2's and S3's in the same equipment and with same amount of experiance is pretty close to being equally capable, resilient. Stronger depends ENTIRELY on individual, as does height.

All candidates from SII had way superior genetics than other humans, and vastly superior intelligence than regular humans, hence the individual trips for evaluation of candidates. Results were messy in SIII's, taking tactical victories that annihilated each S-III companies. Research was much less, funds were much less, and equipment was standard. Remember that Noble was the only team that had MJOLNIR armor from the 600+ spartans said program created.
As for training, the lack of it is exactly what resulted in the catastrophic missions undertaken by SIII's, and less academics meant a much worse tactical intelligence than S-II's. I don't really know how Kurt would have gotten out of the situation MC handled easily when his armor was tested. Any S-III would have promptly failed the test, dying in the process.

Let's round this up then, from each of your arguments.

TRAINING? SII is far superior, clear evidence is almost 100% casualty rate of SIII's. Lifetime training and academics give SII's the upper hand in combat, and all SII's that perished were lost because of the overwhelmingly large forces that went up against tiny squads of SII's (thousands of covies, plus materiel and military assets).
AUGMENTATIONS? Cheaper, less substantial(many of SIII program's augmentations targeted the most basic molecular levels), more effective, yes, but less rigorous as a result, and much less selective candidates.
EQUIPMENT? Can't even say anything about this. If you think SPI armor is better than MJOLNIR, you need to go to a mental institution.

  • 09.05.2011 1:04 PM PDT
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Reach beats GoW!
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: RaMpAnT__117

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: RaMpAnT__117
Chief is about 7'4", can't recall the height difference I made but it was from reading The Flood and First Strike. I'd check them but searching through both for height references will take me hours.

Plus, it's backed by all the data contained in CASTLE BASE in the books and Halsey's journal. S-III's were far less capable specimens to start with, didn't receive lifetime training like the S-II's did, AND had far less substantial augmentations, so it's safe to say the S-II's were far more capable, much stronger, much more resilient and much taller than S-III's.


Spartans III's were trained from the age of 4-6, hell, Alpha company recruits were forced to para-drop from a Pelican on their first night at Onyx.

Yet they were expendable and had much, much less restrictions in physical requirements than the S-II candidate program. S-II's were hand picked, while S-III's were chosen for meeting general standards. Why else did the SIII program have companies of almost 300 while total spartan II's numbered less than a single SIII company?


A: PROVE, with DIRECT quotes from the books the S3's were trained as expenable soldiers. You can't. The ONLY people who viewed them as such was Ackerson and the detached ONI officers.
B: Much much less restrictions? More like "Slightly less".
C: Note the original amount that the S2 program was supposed to have was... 150? Given general population of the entire human race, 300 is a pretty limited selection. If you'd ever bother noting, Ackerson wanted 1000 spartans in Beta, but genetic limitations (and slightly budget) only caused around 300.

SIII's were never trained as expendable soldiers, they were trained as more feasible and cheaper spartan program. The fact that almost all of them died is a direct result of the lesser quality of the program.

With restrictions I meant with the selection of candidates. I don't know where you pull that 300 is way more selective than 150. And it wasn't just 300 SIII's, as far as I know, there were 2 missions that involved 300 spartans each, and both ended with the deaths of all involved. Genetic traits distanced SII's from III's, since II's already had unique genetic traits, and those were exponencially increased with the augmentation process.

Quit your mumbling already, and read WELL before posting a rebuttal (or whatever your mind can come up with).

[Edited on 09.05.2011 1:11 PM PDT]

  • 09.05.2011 1:09 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: RaMpAnT__117

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: RaMpAnT__117
Chief is about 7'4", can't recall the height difference I made but it was from reading The Flood and First Strike. I'd check them but searching through both for height references will take me hours.

Plus, it's backed by all the data contained in CASTLE BASE in the books and Halsey's journal. S-III's were far less capable specimens to start with, didn't receive lifetime training like the S-II's did, AND had far less substantial augmentations, so it's safe to say the S-II's were far more capable, much stronger, much more resilient and much taller than S-III's.


Less capable? Uh huh...

Lifetime training what? Even if they didn't get as long a training period, it's labeled better. I'd say a lot of extra academics got cut in favor of military theme training. Mendez and Kurt would get the best training in the period of time possible.

Far less substantial augmentations? I'd say we've proven the augmentations are pretty similar results wise.

So, it's safe to say S2's and S3's in the same equipment and with same amount of experiance is pretty close to being equally capable, resilient. Stronger depends ENTIRELY on individual, as does height.

All candidates from SII had way superior genetics than other humans, and vastly superior intelligence than regular humans, hence the individual trips for evaluation of candidates. Results were messy in SIII's, taking tactical victories that annihilated each S-III companies. Research was much less, funds were much less, and equipment was standard. Remember that Noble was the only team that had MJOLNIR armor from the 600+ spartans said program created.
As for training, the lack of it is exactly what resulted in the catastrophic missions undertaken by SIII's, and less academics meant a much worse tactical intelligence than S-II's. I don't really know how Kurt would have gotten out of the situation MC handled easily when his armor was tested. Any S-III would have promptly failed the test, dying in the process.

Let's round this up then, from each of your arguments.

TRAINING? SII is far superior, clear evidence is almost 100% casualty rate of SIII's. Lifetime training and academics give SII's the upper hand in combat, and all SII's that perished were lost because of the overwhelmingly large forces that went up against tiny squads of SII's (thousands of covies, plus materiel and military assets).
AUGMENTATIONS? Cheaper, less substantial(many of SIII program's augmentations targeted the most basic molecular levels), more effective, yes, but less rigorous as a result, and much less selective candidates.
EQUIPMENT? Can't even say anything about this. If you think SPI armor is better than MJOLNIR, you need to go to a mental institution.


Overwhelming forces? I think you're confusing the Spartan II's with the III's. Spartan II's (most of them for that matter) have been shown to get killed by a little amount of enemies, or no enemies at all). I can name a few.

-Sam
-Solomon
-Arthur
-Daisy
-Grace
-Cal
-Sheila
-4 Spartans that derped and died when their pelican was shot down.

Now, Spartan III's in the other hand, died facing impossible odds, completing the mission in the process.

Alpha Company kept fighting for 7 days in Operation PROMETEUS and they only died because a huge wave of enemies arrived. Beta had to face a good amount of troopers and then even more when some cruisers came out of cloaking, releasing thousands of enemies and aircraft.

  • 09.05.2011 1:12 PM PDT
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  • 09.05.2011 1:19 PM PDT


Posted by: RaMpAnT__117
With restrictions I meant with the selection of candidates. I don't know where you pull that 300 is way more selective than 150.


I never said that. I said Given general population of the entire human race, 300 is a pretty limited selection.

Meaning, compared to the human race population, for them to only have 300 candidates means the restrictions were not as massively open as you say.

  • 09.05.2011 1:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

B: Much much less restrictions? More like "Slightly less".
C: Note the original amount that the S2 program was supposed to have was... 150? Given general population of the entire human race, 300 is a pretty limited selection. If you'd ever bother noting, Ackerson wanted 1000 spartans in Beta, but genetic limitations (and slightly budget) only caused around 300.

Oh no? And massively open? Like I said, read! 150 is more selective than 300 people, that means less open than in SIII, which means less people got in and quality of candidates was all the better for it.

R-E-A-D!

[Edited on 09.05.2011 1:25 PM PDT]

  • 09.05.2011 1:24 PM PDT

Um, I'm sorry but you have yet to prove the S3 restrictions were "Much, much less restrictive then S2 limits."

Oh, and a fun fact I just noticed. They say there was going to be 150 S2's, but as they narrowed down candidates, it went to 75. In no way does it imply or state there were only 150 children with those genes.

  • 09.05.2011 2:04 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Oh, yeah, Halsey's diary also states that before the project began, the funding was so that they could train 300 Spartan II's, but it was later cut in half, leaving the 150 candidates and since they needed the Spartans right away, they couldn't take more time to really look for the other 150.

  • 09.05.2011 2:09 PM PDT

Swag punks, fu­­ck off!

Blue team = winners.

  • 09.05.2011 2:10 PM PDT
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This is from what I read in Ghosts of Onyx....


Althought the Spartan III program was cheaper, Ackerson himself said these "cheap soldiers" would be better trained

The training of the Spartan IIIs was better than the Spartan II training because

(a) Instructors had SPI, which was superior to the armor the SII trainers had

(b) Kurt was an once an active Spartan II for seven years, so he would have implemented lots of important strategies and tips to kill covenant in the Spartan III program

(c) *SPECULATION* The training of Beta company must have been harder than Alphas because around a 100 or so of the instructors were DROP OUTs for Alpha company (didn't pass initiation---jumping off of pelican at night when they were six. Something they must have regretted and made them as fierce as hell).

However, the augmentations were *SLIGHTLY* watered down so there would be a 100 percent survival rate (and presumably a bit cheaper).



With that said, a Spartan III in MJOLNIR would have been roughly equivalent to a Spartan II in MJOLNIR. However, notice that the SIIs have MUCH more experience in combat than the SIIIs, so an average SII( with more experience) would beat an average SIII, provided they both get MJOLNIR armor, ton make it fair.


HOWEVER, notice when Halsey chose Noble Six to deliver Cortana to the Pillar of Autumn, not ANY member of Red Team, who were also fighting on Reach on August 30th, 2552.

Six was also able to earn the title of "hyperlethal vector", which apparently was only given to one Spartan II, not the other 32.


With that said, the Spartans of Blue team had more experience working together and fighting, so Blue team would probably defeat Noble team, but DEFINITELY not easily or in a short matter of team.


With that said, 5 Spartan IIIs with the status of hyperlethal vectors versus 5 "average" Spartan IIs would probably result in the Spartan IIIs winning.

[Edited on 09.05.2011 3:01 PM PDT]

  • 09.05.2011 2:58 PM PDT

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

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Posted by: x Foman123 x
Speaking of chuckles, let's all lol at IonicPaul, who makes friends with bugs to make up for his lack of human contact.

Guys guys guys. Stop arguing. You all seem to forget that Blue Team had access to the Battle Rifle and Noble Team only had the DMR.

Therefore, Blue Team wins.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Oh, and a fun fact I just noticed. They say there was going to be 150 S2's, but as they narrowed down candidates, it went to 75. In no way does it imply or state there were only 150 children with those genes.
They did that because they only had the funds for 75. 150 candidates met the genetic markers.

[Edited on 09.05.2011 3:20 PM PDT]

  • 09.05.2011 3:19 PM PDT

Paul, you forget if we go that route, Noble Team has armor abilities as well.

  • 09.05.2011 3:21 PM PDT

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

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Posted by: x Foman123 x
Speaking of chuckles, let's all lol at IonicPaul, who makes friends with bugs to make up for his lack of human contact.

Firstly I'm joking and secondly to continue the joke, Blue Team has faster default movement speeds, so when Noble Team gets off of its fancy crutches, Blue Team could wipe the floor.

*note: I don't actually think Reach is bad for Armor Abilities/DMR with bloom. I just think that it actually makes you feel weaker as a base Spartan with no abilities, because you're slower and less maneuverable than Spartan II's*

  • 09.05.2011 3:23 PM PDT


Posted by: IonicPaul
Firstly I'm joking and secondly to continue the joke, Blue Team has faster default movement speeds, so when Noble Team gets off of its fancy crutches, Blue Team could wipe the floor.

*note: I don't actually think Reach is bad for Armor Abilities/DMR with bloom. I just think that it actually makes you feel weaker as a base Spartan with no abilities, because you're slower and less maneuverable than Spartan II's*


I know. Though to be honest, in Reach you move like Chief did in Mark V so I never felt that way.

  • 09.05.2011 3:26 PM PDT

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  • 09.05.2011 3:31 PM PDT
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Pffff why is this still going on? Whatever technicalities we may get into, Spartan II's win every time. Hell, they could waste another one of those expendable 300-man companies against the sole remaining members of the SII program and spartan II's would win.

MC>any SII>anySIII

  • 09.05.2011 4:08 PM PDT


Posted by: RaMpAnT__117
Pffff why is this still going on? Whatever technicalities we may get into, Spartan II's win every time. Hell, they could waste another one of those expendable 300-man companies against the sole remaining members of the SII program and spartan II's would win.

MC>any SII>anySIII


Fanboy alert! Fanboy Alert!

  • 09.05.2011 4:22 PM PDT

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Posted by: RaMpAnT__117
Pffff why is this still going on? Whatever technicalities we may get into, Spartan II's win every time. Hell, they could waste another one of those expendable 300-man companies against the sole remaining members of the SII program and spartan II's would win.

MC>any SII>anySIII


What you just said....

  • 09.05.2011 4:23 PM PDT

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Posted by: RaMpAnT__117

MC>any SII>anySIII


No, Master Chief isn't "better", then the other S-II's, hes a born leader and he's capable of great things, as the other S-II's are, but he isn't, *the best* S-II. All Spartan-II's bring something to the table, like Sam's strength and Kelly's speed, that kind of thing, if Master Chief was better then any Spartan, it would Fred who always came second to John.

  • 09.05.2011 4:32 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: ElementL09

Posted by: RaMpAnT__117

MC>any SII>anySIII


No, Master Chief isn't "better", then the other S-II's, hes a born leader and he's capable of great things, as the other S-II's are, but he isn't, *the best* S-II. All Spartan-II's bring something to the table, like Sam's strength and Kelly's speed, that kind of thing, if Master Chief was better then any Spartan, it would Fred who always came second to John.


I think Fred came second to everybody depending on the exercise, like, if sniping, he would be second to Linda, if running to Kelly and the likes, even though he did it because he didn't want the attention.

  • 09.05.2011 4:34 PM PDT
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Cowboy up


Ghosts of Onyx page 67-68:
..."Kurt discovered they didn't match the perfect psychological and genetic markers set in Dr. Halsey's original selection protocols."... "These recruits wouldn't be anything like himself, John, Kelly, or any of the original Spartan-II candidates."

I've said this before, S-III's are genetically inferior and were given less extensive augmentations that resulted in superior physical results for the S-II's.

S-II's were given a thyroid augment that resulted in larger skeletal and muscle growth, hence their larger size both in height and in muscle mass. A byproduct of another augmentation that reduced reaction times (which is different then the one the S-III's recieved) was increased intelligence, creativity, and memory.

This isn't mentioning how mjolnir amplifies these augmentations. The slight advantages S-II's have is increased exponentially, so while both teams may wear mjolnir there would be a noticeable difference in the abilities from S-II to S-III.

S-II's are rare wonders, spared no expense in augmentations that took full advantage of their genetic makeup.

There is a difference, Fred for instance has participated and survived over 120 campaigns against innies and covies alike. S-III's were set up for failure (from a mission standpoint, not training since their training was slightly improved upon) and while some like to compare noble 6's accolades of bringing down whole "militia groups" to chiefs feats, I would say Fred has achieved more than six.

  • 09.05.2011 5:52 PM PDT

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Posted by: Tury07

S-II's were given a thyroid augment that resulted in larger skeletal and muscle growth, hence their larger size both in height and in muscle mass. A byproduct of another augmentation that reduced reaction times (which is different then the one the S-III's recieved) was increased intelligence, creativity, and memory.


Surgery is performed on the arms and legs of the subjects body to expose the bone, an advanced carbide ceramic material is grafted onto the skeletal structure to begin skeletal ossification. This process works by breaking down bone and rebuilding it stronger then before. This results in the bones being virtually unbreakable. The coverage of this procedure does not exceed 3% total bone mass due to significant white blood cell necrosis, to make up for that a growth hormone is administered to help strengthen the bones throughout the rest of the body.

Stop bringing up the height issue, Spartan III's didn't had it (because they didn't need it) and you see Noble being just 10 centimeters shorter than John on his armor.

And no, their augmentation procedures were not "lighter" they were able to advance on the technology used for the augmentations and based on the results gathered from the Spartan II augmentations procedure (Ackerson stole any file pertaining to the Spartan II program), they were able to safely apply the augmentations.

It's like this, today we might have a cure for cancer that is so strong that it kills half of the users, now let's say that in 10-15 years somebody develops a variation of that cure that has the same properties but due to the advancements in technology, he/she is able to apply it safely to the users. I know it may not be the best way to put it, but hey, I'm tired and I can't sleep.

  • 09.05.2011 7:34 PM PDT