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Subject: If Master Chief and the Arbiter fought to the death, who would win?


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: mojeda101
Problem is, Chief needs armor to even be a match.

Sangheili can beat him naked, especially the Zealot Arbiter.
Posted by: ThePredkiller2
The Elites' culture revolves around unarmed combat, not to mention they are physically larger and more powerful than an unarmed SPARTAN II. A fully armored SPARTAN is about equal with an unarmored Elite zealot.

The Sangheili used power armour as well, which makes both your assumptions baseless. Get with the times for christ's sake.


Right over your head.

  • 09.10.2011 12:51 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Right over your head.

I will take that as an admission of defeat on your part since you failed to give any further explanation or evidence. Yes, there is no justification for an unarmored Sangheili being any stronger or faster than an unarmored Spartan II because the Sangheili use power armor too. The power armour gets stronger with higher ranks.

Edit: Give me your source that states that a fully armor Spartan II is equal to an unarmored Zealot. If you don't do it then I am calling you a fatuous lair.

Posted by:
So the Chief BARELY manages to kill an Elite Minor at Gamma Station and you believe he could take on a Zealot class Arbiter who lead one of the largest Covenant fleets that took out Reach?

Damn...

Jai didn't seem to have any problems.

You two are a pair of asinine fools. Do you seriously entertain the idea that just because an Elite gets given the title of "Zealot" that they automatically become stronger and faster? (Pro tip: It is their armour that gets better) Not only is your causality wrong, but it otherwise indicates that the Elite is first stronger and faster which allows him to become a zealot, which would explain the gamma station Elite. This however not necessarily being the case all time, as when Thel got his ass handed to him by Jai.

[Edited on 09.10.2011 6:50 AM PDT]

  • 09.10.2011 6:48 AM PDT

hi guys :) love a bit of halo and zombies whoop!!

marijuana anyone?

yes!!! master chief is chuck norris!!! lmao!

  • 09.10.2011 1:26 PM PDT

also ripa is better then the halo 3 arbiter but again hes too cofident

  • 09.10.2011 2:16 PM PDT

For Carnage Apply Within - We played Marathon before Marathon was cool!

Keep it authentic...

Chief. Even without Cortana.

  • 09.10.2011 2:33 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Right over your head.

I will take that as an admission of defeat on your part since you failed to give any further explanation or evidence. Yes, there is no justification for an unarmored Sangheili being any stronger or faster than an unarmored Spartan II because the Sangheili use power armor too. The power armour gets stronger with higher ranks.

Edit: Give me your source that states that a fully armor Spartan II is equal to an unarmored Zealot. If you don't do it then I am calling you a fatuous lair.


...

Wow, what an idiot. Not only did you STILL not get what I said in my previous post, you actually think the internet is some sort of game you can 'win' at. How childish. How pathetic. I came here trying to have a decent, peaceful and non aggressive debate, and here you are attacking me. You know what that says to me? You're an unintelligent -blam!- who has such an intense internal self hatred that he wakes up crying because he has no friends and he gets on internet forums to pick fights with people to make himself feel better. Yeah, I actually am an intelligent person, so you attack the superiority to make yourself feel superior to how you really feel about yourself. Damn shame. Grow up and get the -blam!- up off the internet, kid.

[Edited on 09.10.2011 10:31 PM PDT]

  • 09.10.2011 10:30 PM PDT

The Elite at Gamma Station was a meter taller than John if I recall correctly, which is why I think John had such a stuggle with him, besides the fact that it was in a vacuum, and all Elites are extremely skilled, and had training similar to the Spartans.

Zealots have more experience, have survived many battles, and also have furthered their training into different areas, using an energy sword, assassin, spec ops, etc. and the fact that Jai was able to manhandle Thel is quite remarkable imo, but he did catch him off-guard IIRC.

However, as for the fight, Master Chief vs The Arbiter, I think it would be very close, neither one would go easily. Master Chief having Mark VI armor and Arbiter being down graded to his ceremonial armor could tip the odds in Chief's favor. If it was hand-to-hand, it's really hard to say, I would say stalemate, but otherwise, I'd say the Chief.

In conclusion, I'd say Chief.

  • 09.13.2011 7:06 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Wow, what an idiot. Not only did you STILL not get what I said in my previous post, you actually think the internet is some sort of game you can 'win' at. How childish. How pathetic. I came here trying to have a decent, peaceful and non aggressive debate, and here you are attacking me. You know what that says to me? You're an unintelligent -blam!- who has such an intense internal self hatred that he wakes up crying because he has no friends and he gets on internet forums to pick fights with people to make himself feel better. Yeah, I actually am an intelligent person, so you attack the superiority to make yourself feel superior to how you really feel about yourself. Damn shame. Grow up and get the -blam!- up off the internet, kid.

LOL!

  • 09.13.2011 7:23 PM PDT

Halo Legends already covers this, Arbiter (Thel Vadumee) wins but just before he gets to finish John off, he gets pulled back by one of his ships.
I'm surprised no body has brought this up yet.

[Edited on 09.14.2011 3:59 AM PDT]

  • 09.14.2011 3:53 AM PDT
  • gamertag: adzent
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I think most people dont realise just how powerful Sangheili actually are.

A spartan is said to be able to lift 3 times their bodyweight POST augmentations (i believe this was stated in a book but cant remember which one), and going from halopedia (i know, not a valid source, maybe someone can confirm this) John is 6'10 390lbs out of armour. That means he can lift, without armour, about 1100-1300lbs of weight depending on if he's gotten stronger or weaker over time. He was trained from 6 years of age.

A sangheili is extremely strong. Far stronger than any human, including all unarmorued spartans. They are about 8'6 tall and weight about double of john. This categorically puts them much more powerful than he is by weight alone. Just being able to jump or do a single pullup would mean a Sangheili could toss ANY human about like a ragdoll without breaking a sweat. Im talking as if an adult human could toss around a 5 year old child. And that is'nt even considering that they are likely far stronger than just being able to lift their bodyweight, meaning they could be packing well about 2000lbs of force in their upper body alone. They are trained from birth mostly to become warriors. Their anatomy means that they could likely outrun any spartan (barring perhaps kelly? it may be a different aprtan not sure) in armour let alone out of it.

Mjolnir armour enhances strength ten fold, and this is the point at which spartans are said to match a sangheili.

All in all a fight out of armour would be as such; The arbiter is far stronger and faster than the chief, he wouldn't stand a chance hand to hand. Even if we take skill into account Sangheili train from birth, so it's not particularly relevant.

  • 09.14.2011 4:33 AM PDT


Posted by: adzent
I think most people dont realise just how powerful Sangheili actually are.

A spartan is said to be able to lift 3 times their bodyweight POST augmentations (i believe this was stated in a book but cant remember which one), and going from halopedia (i know, not a valid source, maybe someone can confirm this) John is 6'10 390lbs out of armour. That means he can lift, without armour, about 1100-1300lbs of weight depending on if he's gotten stronger or weaker over time. He was trained from 6 years of age.

A sangheili is extremely strong. Far stronger than any human, including all unarmorued spartans. They are about 8'6 tall and weight about double of john. This categorically puts them much more powerful than he is by weight alone. Just being able to jump or do a single pullup would mean a Sangheili could toss ANY human about like a ragdoll without breaking a sweat. Im talking as if an adult human could toss around a 5 year old child. And that is'nt even considering that they are likely far stronger than just being able to lift their bodyweight, meaning they could be packing well about 2000lbs of force in their upper body alone. They are trained from birth mostly to become warriors. Their anatomy means that they could likely outrun any spartan (barring perhaps kelly? it may be a different aprtan not sure) in armour let alone out of it.

Mjolnir armour enhances strength ten fold, and this is the point at which spartans are said to match a sangheili.

All in all a fight out of armour would be as such; The arbiter is far stronger and faster than the chief, he wouldn't stand a chance hand to hand. Even if we take skill into account Sangheili train from birth, so it's not particularly relevant.


I believe it was mentioned in one of the novels that Chief is actually 130 kilograms, or about 287 lbs, 390 is a little heavy set even for a Spartan, and it was said that Chief was solid muscle, and where does it say they can lift 3x their weight? I've never heard this, and MJOLNIR doubles the user's strength, however, the Mark VI is probably slightly enhanced above this.
And an out of armor fight is irrelevant, we're talking both in their armor, we've never even seen Chief without MJOLNIR, MJOLNIR is one of the key things what makes a Spartan.

  • 09.15.2011 9:01 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: adzent
They are about 8'6 tall and weight about double of john.

They are between 7'2 and 8'6. And they are not twice the weight of John, they are generally less at about 318lbs (144kg). Thel himself is 322lbs (146kg), which is less than that of John. So with these figures, the argument that you used actually sways in favour of John really.

Posted by: adzent
Their anatomy means that they could likely outrun any spartan (barring perhaps kelly? it may be a different aprtan not sure) in armour let alone out of it.

Digitigrade legs are well adapted for running and stealth, but are generally poor for stability. Spartans have the advantage there when it comes to keeping balanced.

Posted by: adzent
Mjolnir armour enhances strength ten fold, and this is the point at which spartans are said to match a sangheili.

It actually enhances strength by a factor of two, not 10. Sangheili amour also operates like Mjolnir in that respect. Spartans in Mjolnir are a match for Sangheili in the Combat Harness, basically. Unarmoured Spartans may very well equal or exceed the natural strength of Sangheili.

  • 09.15.2011 10:03 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
And they are not twice the weight of John, they are generally less at about 318lbs (144kg). Thel himself is 322lbs (146kg), which is less than that of John.


No, he weighs about 120 kg according to Fall of Reach, which is significantly less than 322 pounds.

  • 09.15.2011 11:03 PM PDT
  • gamertag: adzent
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Posted by: anton1792
They are between 7'2 and 8'6. And they are not twice the weight of John, they are generally less at about 318lbs (144kg). Thel himself is 322lbs (146kg), which is less than that of John. So with these figures, the argument that you used actually sways in favour of John really.


Generally they are well above 7'2. Hell, look at Reach. Spartan 3's are easily 6'5-6'10, and the Sangheili in that game are easily a foot above them, probably more. Also the one in FoR was much taller than John. Where did you get his weight from? I knew i could be wrong with that figure because i didn't have a reliable source.


Digitigrade legs are well adapted for running and stealth, but are generally poor for stability. Spartans have the advantage there when it comes to keeping balanced.
My entire point was speed not balance.


It actually enhances strength by a factor of two, not 10. Sangheili amour also operates like Mjolnir in that respect. Spartans in Mjolnir are a match for Sangheili in the Combat Harness, basically. Unarmoured Spartans may very well equal or exceed the natural strength of Sangheili.


The crystalline layer, the part contributing to most of the armour cost, enhances their strength ten fold. If im correct Halsey said this herself. It's also noted in her diary.


Even if my weight predicitions were off, Sangheili should still be generally heavier because of their height, which in turn puts them at a naturally higher strength level. Unless of course Sangheili have very weak muscles, which i think we can all say they don't.

  • 09.16.2011 2:54 AM PDT
  • gamertag: adzent
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Posted by: MisterBraz

I believe it was mentioned in one of the novels that Chief is actually 130 kilograms, or about 287 lbs, 390 is a little heavy set even for a Spartan, and it was said that Chief was solid muscle, and where does it say they can lift 3x their weight? I've never heard this, and MJOLNIR doubles the user's strength, however, the Mark VI is probably slightly enhanced above this.
And an out of armor fight is irrelevant, we're talking both in their armor, we've never even seen Chief without MJOLNIR, MJOLNIR is one of the key things what makes a Spartan.


It's mentioned in FoR after their augmentations that they can lift 3x their bodyweight, read the book. I still think the book said it was a ten fold increase, i may be wrong but im inclined to think im correct, i read the books not too long ago.

Out of armour strength transfers through when they are in their armour obviously. So yes, it does matter.

  • 09.16.2011 2:58 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: adzent
Generally they are well above 7'2. Hell, look at Reach. Spartan 3's are easily 6'5-6'10, and the Sangheili in that game are easily a foot above them, probably more. Also the one in FoR was much taller than John. Where did you get his weight from? I knew i could be wrong with that figure because i didn't have a reliable source.

I gave the height range though, not a solitary figure. Obviously most will be above 7'4, (7'2 was a typo btw, it should have said 7'4) but not by much because the range doesn't permit it. They all generally fall within 7'4-8'6. Bungie can take a lot of time meticulously differentiating each Sangheili's height, or they can make one character model and then just slap different armour sets on them. It is more time efficient to do the latter. Every written canon source keeps on giving the same height range (Or figures within that range to be more precise), including the latest Visual Guide. If it were any other way, I don't see why this would be the case.

That Elite in TFoR was a meter taller than John in Mjolnir, which makes him 10ft tall. That is such erratic Elite that it should not be given too much attention. It doesn't make sense with everything else we know about Elites. And then there is the obvious fact that it was only one Elite who's characteristics are never, ever seen again.

As for John's weight, he is 179 kg (395lbs). That is from the Visual Guide and the Halo 3 Bestiarium. I just checked the Elites in the Visual Guide though and it changes things slightly with them. They now have a weight range of 139kg to 178 kg (307lbs - 393lbs). It still puts the vast majority of Elites below John in body weight though. Thel's weight remains unchanged.

Posted by: adzent
My entire point was speed not balance.

You are mixing up running speed with reaction time then. The Arbiter's leg structure is only going to help him if he wants to run away from John. His feet will have less surface area with respect to his height and weight than John's. The leg structure of Humans also has a more developed ankle joint. At the expense of having more weight on the ankle which slows us down, we can pivot and move our ankle in ways that a Sangheili probably can't. In a fight, this balance thing will be key.

Posted by: adzent
The crystalline layer, the part contributing to most of the armour cost, enhances their strength ten fold. If im correct Halsey said this herself. It's also noted in her diary.

It doubles strength and increases reaction time by a factor of 5. Page 115 of TFoR.

Posted by: adzent
Even if my weight predicitions were off, Sangheili should still be generally heavier because of their height, which in turn puts them at a naturally higher strength level. Unless of course Sangheili have very weak muscles, which i think we can all say they don't.

Sangheili are taller but have less mass than a Spartan. That means that their muscles will be less dense. John on the other hand is shorter with more mass, therefore his will be more dense. The natural strength of Spartans is probably more than a Sangheili's.

  • 09.16.2011 11:11 AM PDT
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Chief

  • 09.16.2011 12:08 PM PDT

haha

MC!

  • 09.16.2011 12:34 PM PDT
  • gamertag: adzent
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Posted by: anton1792
[I gave the height range though, not a solitary figure. Obviously most will be above 7'4, (7'2 was a typo btw, it should have said 7'4) but not by much because the range doesn't permit it. They all generally fall within 7'4-8'6. Bungie can take a lot of time meticulously differentiating each Sangheili's height, or they can make one character model and then just slap different armour sets on them. It is more time efficient to do the latter. Every written canon source keeps on giving the same height range (Or figures within that range to be more precise), including the latest Visual Guide. If it were any other way, I don't see why this would be the case.


We know their high range, yes. The variance within the parameters you gave could make all the difference in a fight.

That Elite in TFoR was a meter taller than John in Mjolnir, which makes him 10ft tall. That is such erratic Elite that it should not be given too much attention. It doesn't make sense with everything else we know about Elites. And then there is the obvious fact that it was only one Elite who's characteristics are never, ever seen again.
Agreed on the 10ft elite lol.



As for John's weight, he is 179 kg (395lbs). That is from the Visual Guide and the Halo 3 Bestiarium. I just checked the Elites in the Visual Guide though and it changes things slightly with them. They now have a weight range of 139kg to 178 kg (307lbs - 393lbs). It still puts the vast majority of Elites below John in body weight though. Thel's weight remains unchanged.

My original point i said this but someone said i was wrong and gave a different figure. I guess i was right about his weight then...going by his weight, how he looks is COMPLETELY wrong. He should be huge. For arguments sake i think we shuold take a Sangheili in the upper range of that weight limit.

You are mixing up running speed with reaction time then. The Arbiter's leg structure is only going to help him if he wants to run away from John. His feet will have less surface area with respect to his height and weight than John's. The leg structure of Humans also has a more developed ankle joint. At the expense of having more weight on the ankle which slows us down, we can pivot and move our ankle in ways that a Sangheili probably can't. In a fight, this balance thing will be key.
I didn't mention reaction time, we all know how fast Spartan reactions are. Sangheili feet are huge, providing a steady and firm anchor to the ground. Not only that, but their leg anatomy drops their center of gravity lower, making them more balanced if anything.

Ankle joints are irrelevant, because we dont know about the sangheili's. Saying we hhave a more developed one makes zero sense.



It doubles strength and increases reaction time by a factor of 5. Page 115 of TFoR.

ok, got it.


[Sangheili are taller but have less mass than a Spartan. That means that their muscles will be less dense. John on the other hand is shorter with more mass, therefore his will be more dense. The natural strength of Spartans is probably more than a Sangheili's.


Them weighing less could be ANYTHING, not their muscle density. John could be heavier because of his skeletal ceramic ossification. The augmentations also made his bones denser, making him again, heavier. So its not always muscle mass. However, if he does actually weigh 395bs out of armour, then he would look more bulky than a brute. Which from depiction sin the game, isnt the case.

  • 09.16.2011 3:14 PM PDT


Posted by: adzent
Them weighing less could be ANYTHING, not their muscle density. John could be heavier because of his skeletal ceramic ossification. The augmentations also made his bones denser, making him again, heavier. So its not always muscle mass. However, if he does actually weigh 395bs out of armour, then he would look more bulky than a brute. Which from depiction sin the game, isnt the case.


Density doesn't equal size. He can weigh more and not actually show it. Dense bones and muscle means more weight but doesn't mean you have to be bigger or show it.

[Edited on 09.16.2011 3:44 PM PDT]

  • 09.16.2011 3:43 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: adzent
I didn't mention reaction time, we all know how fast Spartan reactions are.

Why did you mention this then? "Their anatomy means that they could likely outrun any spartan" It is not really relevant to CQC, unless of course, someone needs to run away.

Posted by: adzent
Sangheili feet are huge, providing a steady and firm anchor to the ground. Not only that, but their leg anatomy drops their center of gravity lower, making them more balanced if anything.

They are large with respect to us, but they are not with respect to the Sangheili that stand on them. That is what I said; that they have a small surface area with respect to the Sangheili's general height and weight.

Posted by: adzent
Ankle joints are irrelevant, because we dont know about the sangheili's. Saying we hhave a more developed one makes zero sense.

Your right, I should have said more developed for load bearing. Silly me.

Sangheili might get away with what they have got, but they evolved down the path of running and stealth. The leg structures evolved in Humans are down another path "designed" specifically for load bearing, weight distribution and stability on uneven terrain. I would put more stock in the latter than the former for ease in CQC.

Posted by: adzent
Them weighing less could be ANYTHING, not their muscle density. John could be heavier because of his skeletal ceramic ossification. The augmentations also made his bones denser, making him again, heavier. So its not always muscle mass. However, if he does actually weigh 395bs out of armour, then he would look more bulky than a brute. Which from depiction sin the game, isnt the case.

I don't see this making much of a difference. Both his bones and muscles were increased in density and the total comes out more than Thel's, and Sangheili in general. Additionally, skeletal weight is generally 14% of the total body weight whilst voluntary muscle is 40%. So unless his skeleton has been over-augmented whilst his muscles were largely neglected I don't see it making a difference. The ceramics also only cover 3% of his skeleton, so I doubt that it accounts for much of his weight. However, if it is attributed mostly to his bones, then that is still an advantage that he has. That would then indicate that whilst not necessarily being stronger, that his bones are most likely harder and stronger than Thel's. Thel would struggle to break John's bones whilst John would probably have no difficulty breaking Thel's. So as it is, either the Sangheili have weaker muscles, weaker bones or both because Spartans are still heavier in total.

Also, the reason he is not bulkier than a Brute is because Brutes are an insane weight. 1500lbs or something for those guys. And density can only increase without increase in volume, so he does not have to appear huge.

  • 09.16.2011 4:29 PM PDT

Elites are said in the books to be superior to Spartans., So I would say the Arbiter, but Master Cheif has extrordinary luck so, idk. but im leaning towards Arby on this one

  • 09.16.2011 4:39 PM PDT

of course chief would win but thats just because the cowboys always beat the indians. but i would like to think that the arbiter is tougher.

  • 09.16.2011 5:02 PM PDT

Honestly this would need to get a Deadliest Warrior kind of thing to it for proper analyzation.

The Major Elite (Red) is equivalent to the average spartan. However, Chief isn't the average spartan. He not only is skilled, but also has Cortana on his side, the best A.I. more or less the UNSC has to offer. He also has Mk VI armor and shielding, so hes pretty damn well safe.

The Arbiter on the other hand, is not your average Sangheili either. He was a Supreme Commander of the Covenant forces and also a Kaidon, both of which are two high ranks in the both Sangheili rule and the Covenant. He's fended himself from assassin's in the past and he's fought numerous battles, so clearly he is a strong Sangheili. He also has somethings like Camouflage, though that could be rendered useless by Chief's motion sensor.

Like I said, all the possibilities would have to be analyzed. This is a tough fight to choose who would win.

  • 09.16.2011 5:53 PM PDT

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