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Subject: Could a Human-Sangheili alliance be a disrespect...

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

...to all those who were massacred in the Human-Covenant war?

(If it happens of course, which it probably will not, but it is a question I have never seen asked before.)

  • 09.04.2011 2:19 PM PDT

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Well, enemies have had a habit of allying with each other for some time now in our history. In the short term, yeah it won't be popular. In the long term, it may be better.

  • 09.04.2011 2:21 PM PDT

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The enemy of my enemy is my friend. They have/had to work together whether they like it or not. The Sanghelli at least respect Humanity more then the prophets do.

  • 09.04.2011 2:31 PM PDT

In the short term it may cause some problems, but over time they should learn to live & work with eachother.

  • 09.04.2011 2:36 PM PDT

I am alpha, i am omega.

I am the last of the primes.

They both killed lots of each other, it's fair...

  • 09.04.2011 2:39 PM PDT

Some characters will most definitely not like it, but no, I don't think it would be. It's almost the same scenario as the U.S. and other nations in Western Europe helping out West Germany after WWII was over.

And after all, the Elites did turn on the Covenant and sided with Humanity in the last phase of the war, even if people still resent them for what they did before that point, I think they will have some form of respect for them for aiding them. I kind of see Lord Hood's attitude being one of the most prevalent ones.

I think it's been made clear that there is some sort of alliance, a non-agression pact of some sort at the very least, between the UNSC and the Covenant Separatists post Halo 3. Whether that will last through Glasslands Trilogy or grow into a full blown alliance remains to be seen however. I think the latter is more likely. Neither side will be exactly friendly with the other for a good long while though I think.

  • 09.04.2011 3:04 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Well, enemies have had a habit of allying with each other for some time now in our history.

In that case though, was it ever a respectful thing to do towards those who had been killed previously by those enemies? Maybe a case by case basis should be adopted.

Posted by: ElementL09
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. They have/had to work together whether they like it or not.

Again, it is sort of the same I think, in the sense that I wonder if such a philosophy is an affront to those that were killed by a previous enemy.

Posted by: ElementL09
The Sanghelli at least respect Humanity more then the prophets do.

Only 4 showed those feelings really.

Posted by: ferrrari
They both killed lots of each other, it's fair...

It most certainly is not. Self defense from unprovoked genocide is hardly immoral, nor is self defense in general. I bet US troops have killed more Taliban than the Taliban have US troops, but that does not in anyway absolve the Taliban of anything. Your argument of body count determining who was right in the war would however.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Some characters will most definitely not like it, but no, I don't think it would be. It's almost the same scenario as the U.S. and other nations in Western Europe helping out West Germany after WWII was over.

I am trying to think of a reason for why this would be the case though. I don't think there is.


People were killed for simply being Human, and the Sangheili enjoyed doing it for the most part. (The idea that the Sangheili have in any way a respect, an admiration or any sort of positive feelings for Humanity at all is a fan made myth. Short reason as to why: Conversations from the Universe is a discussion between 2 Elites only. Add Zhar [From The Cole Protocol] and Reff [From Bloodline] to this and you only have 4 Elites that ever showed anything other than complete and utter hatred, hubris and disgust towards Humans. If there is anything that points to the contrary I would like to see it. For each of those 4 unique Elites, we easily have 2 or 3 that heavily despised Humans. [eg Xytan, Ripa, Thon, Orna, Jora. The list goes on, but we have more Elites that showed hatred than those who showed respect and admiration]) Anyway, back on track. The Sangheili are not showing any indication that they are truly sorry for what they did after Halo 3 either, or these so called feelings of respect. So they did choose to follow a doctrine against their reasoning faculties, killed billions with utter hatred, and then after it neither regretted it nor changed their feelings towards their victims. I think that the last two though in particular makes an alliance quite iffy really. If the Sangheili changed their outlook then it would not be so bad.

This is equivalent to a group of Na­zis, who still believe that Jews are inferior, and who view their atrocities as noble or just plain don't care about what they did, being protected or treated with respect or offered hospitality by the Israeli government. It would be a disgrace to the victims of the camps, as well as not making any sense.

  • 09.04.2011 4:40 PM PDT

Um, wasn't it in the information for the one Co-op elite character that there was a "growing number" of Elite youth who respected humans?

  • 09.04.2011 4:49 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, wasn't it in the information for the one Co-op elite character that there was a "growing number" of Elite youth who respected humans?

Yeah. However 343 Industries must have forgotten about it when they let Traviss write that Elite society views Humans as so low in power and "social class" that it would actually be a dishonor to harm them and that the Anthropologist speaks so ridiculously in Sangheilian (Like an idiot child as they regard him as) that he could be "culled for his own good".

Either way, it is either retconned or completely impotent.

  • 09.04.2011 4:55 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, wasn't it in the information for the one Co-op elite character that there was a "growing number" of Elite youth who respected humans?

Yeah. However 343 Industries must have forgotten about it when they let Traviss write that Elite society views Humans as so low in power and "social class" that it would actually be a dishonor to harm them and that the Anthropologist speaks so ridiculously in Sangheilian (Like an idiot child as they regard him as) that he could be "culled for his own good".

Either way, it is either retconned or completely impotent.
SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT ONE RESEARCHER IN PARTICULAR! She wasn't talking about the entire race. Just one man.

Can you tell me where you got this idea of all of humanity being so low in class that harming them would be dishonorable?

[Edited on 09.04.2011 6:49 PM PDT]

  • 09.04.2011 6:42 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, wasn't it in the information for the one Co-op elite character that there was a "growing number" of Elite youth who respected humans?

Elite society views Humans as so low in power and "social class" that it would actually be a dishonor to harm them
Either way, it is either retconned or completely impotent.


...Probably because humans aren't even a part of the Elite race...? What pull could we possibly have over the Elites' government that would spawn or spawn from any kind of social status in a culture literally alien to us? If aliens came to our planet right now, would we have any say in their government?

Besides, Karen writes extraordinarily complex stories about morals and ethics; we don't know the full story, so people jumping to conclusions should stop assuming they do.

[Edited on 09.04.2011 7:16 PM PDT]

  • 09.04.2011 7:15 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Sniffy66
SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT ONE RESEARCHER IN PARTICULAR! She wasn't talking about the entire race. Just one man.

Can you tell me where you got this idea of all of humanity being so low in class that harming them would be dishonorable?

She says that the reason why the researcher is viewed as such is because he is so weak and so low in "social class" (her words) that harming him would be a dishonour. There is not much difference between him and every other Human in terms of strength and stature, so that is likely applying to all of Humanity as well.

I don't know what she means by social class, because as Roberto points out, Humans are not a part of Sangheili society - they are not high in it, nor are they low in it, they are simply not a part of it. They do not take any place on the scale. It is obvious that the Sangheili are not capable of seeing this and automatically insert Humanity as "beneath them", despite that making no sense whatsoever. And yes, the desensitization towards another race's sapience will be the reason why the social class thing is being applied to all of Humanity and not just this researcher, because that is what happens when you view a people as faceless; you generalize.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
...Probably because humans aren't even a part of the Elite race...? What pull could we possibly have over the Elites' government that would spawn or spawn from any kind of social status in a culture literally alien to us? If aliens came to our planet right now, would we have any say in their government?

We are not in their society at all, so how can class be assigned to us? In order to have a social class (Which Elites say we are at the bottom of) you first have to be in that society in some way, whether as a slave, a peasant, a soldier, an aristocrat or whatever. We are none of that - Sangheili have no say in our politics and we have no say in theirs as we are completely parallel to each other, yet the hubris is so intense coming from the Sangheili that they automatically assign us a social class. That is the height of ethnocentrism.

The reality is that Humanity would never wish to see another Sangheili ever again if this were the case. (Although Halo ain't very realistic so I digress) I don't imagine very many nations wanting to put up with an "ally" (And I use the term loosely) who adopts the ridiculously fatuous viewpoint that they are inferior in every measurable standard, uses them and treats their ambassadors and culture with complete and utter disrespect, in addition to the bloody past between them. It is almost a travesty.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Besides, Karen writes extraordinarily complex stories about morals and ethics; we don't know the full story, so people jumping to conclusions should stop assuming they do.

Perhaps, but everything that I have heard so far - Form ComicCon, PAX, Sparkast - has just sounded completely negative concerning this.

  • 09.05.2011 9:09 AM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

There would be obvious tension between them. Especially considering how many planets the Covenant glasses. But, they can easily use the excuse that only more will die by Sangheili hands if we don't forge an alliance.

  • 09.05.2011 9:18 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Well, enemies have had a habit of allying with each other for some time now in our history. In the short term, yeah it won't be popular. In the long term, it may be better.

  • 09.05.2011 9:23 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: SEAL Sniper 9
There would be obvious tension between them. Especially considering how many planets the Covenant glasses. But, they can easily use the excuse that only more will die by Sangheili hands if we don't forge an alliance.

Who says that?

In either case, this would not work for the same reason we don't bend over backwards to terrorist demands. They would demand more and more and more until you are virtually a slave in your own nation. Only a fool would allow such coercion to work on them.

  • 09.05.2011 10:20 AM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Regardless of their opinions towards humanity, the elites need us. Let's look at some facts...

While the total human population was greatly diminished during the war, we still have an intact society (I'm making the assumption here that the Insurrectionists have put their species ahead of their petty war). We still have a partial remnant of the Home Fleet and a military command structure in place.

The Covenant on the other hand, does not. Their largest Fleet was wiped out by the NOVA bomb. I'd venture a guess and say that the Arbiter's Fleet is the largest remaining (though I really have no idea) and based on the cutscene From H3, there isn't much left of it. You have individual shipmasters going off on their own (The Return) searching for, I guess it would be direction in their lives. Finally, you have a society which was dependent on cooperation (via the Covenant) left to address problems on their own. I imagine there were at least some trade agreements between the Elite society and the the other Covenant species (which are gone now). Simply put their society and culture are going to need to undergo some fundamental changes that I'm not sure the Elites will be able to handle.

Traviss' novel takes place right after the war so perhaps the attitudes have yet to change in Elite society. The Arbiter is most likely going to be the societal leader and his attitudes are going to be more lenient towards humanity than anyone else (the ones that matter will most likely come over to this attitude as well as their society crumbles and humanity advances far beyond them as shown, quite obviously, in the last scene of Reach). Simply put, if the elites don't join into an alliance with us, they will become irrelevant by the 2580's while we flourish.

  • 09.05.2011 11:01 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: dibbs089
I never really thought that any serious problems with an alliance would stem from the Elites. I agree with all your points that they are a bit unlikely to pull through from their current situation on their own as a society. However, the question that I was basically asking with this thread (That I personally drove off the topic I will admit...) was something that I don't believe is thought about a whole lot. I think that I am safe in saying that mostly all of the fanbase wants Elites and Humans to live happily ever after. Fan-Fic.net is just full of post-Halo 3 stories with that goal in mind. However I think people overlook the obvious. It is not the Elites that people should be reverse-engineering into an alliance I think, it should be Humanity. Should Humanity need and/or want this? Would they actually take it?

[Edited on 09.05.2011 11:25 AM PDT]

  • 09.05.2011 11:24 AM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: dibbs089
Should Humanity need and/or want this? Would they actually take it?
Need? No, after the war and with the Forerunner tech being recovered the alliance isn't really necessary in the slightest (for humanity at least). I imagine Traviss' novel will allow us to determine whether the elites need the alliance or not (I imagine they do).

Would they actually want to take it? The insurrectionists have a history of jumping into trade agreements (Cole Protocol) that would be beneficial to them, but again their agreement with the jackals could have just been to spite the UNSC. Additionally, it was with the jackals as opposed to Elites... So I don't know for them. Humanity as a whole? I don't know either. Really, it's up to the military command structure to determine the answer to that question. I imagine humanity, after the shock of war, would defer most, if not all, of the judgements to them. I know we do have trade agreements with the Elites in place immediately after the war (I think it was actually one of the game manuals that said this under the weapons section) so a full on alliance is fiarly feasible provided that goes well.

  • 09.05.2011 11:45 AM PDT

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It'd incredibly uneasy at first because I'm assuming pretty much everyone lost someone to the Covenant, but it would end the war.

  • 09.05.2011 11:46 AM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: SEAL Sniper 9
There would be obvious tension between them. Especially considering how many planets the Covenant glasses. But, they can easily use the excuse that only more will die by Sangheili hands if we don't forge an alliance.

Who says that?

In either case, this would not work for the same reason we don't bend over backwards to terrorist demands. They would demand more and more and more until you are virtually a slave in your own nation. Only a fool would allow such coercion to work on them.

I think you misunderstood me and I worded that wrong.

  • 09.05.2011 11:47 AM PDT

I think the last halo 3 cutscene shows it quite well, they don't like it but know it's necessary

  • 09.05.2011 12:48 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: dibbs089
Really, it's up to the military command structure to determine the answer to that question. I imagine humanity, after the shock of war, would defer most, if not all, of the judgements to them.

Being knowledgeable of the full war and of all of the hidden atrocities that took place therein, such as Draco III, (The Covenant fed helpless citizens to starving, rabid Grunts and Jackals whilst they were still alive) makes me think that they would not entertain the idea. They know the full death toll, the number of worlds glassed and all the terrible atrocities more than any other organisation. I forgot about those trade agreements (Although they do say pending negotiations) so it looks like in the canon it might turn out that way, but I can't help but feel that it is a bit spurious, especially with the way that the Sangheili are not really reaching out to meet the UNSC half way.

As for the question in the OP, could that be a legitimately held viewpoint? (Legitimate as in rationally justified)

Posted by: SEAL Sniper 9
I think you misunderstood me and I worded that wrong.

What did you mean then?

[Edited on 09.05.2011 12:56 PM PDT]

  • 09.05.2011 12:49 PM PDT
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I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure -- that is all that agnosticism means. -Clarence Darrow

I'm sure humans can see past the fact that the Elites were mislead into fighting us. After all, many Elites questioned why humans could not join the Covenant; they respected us.

  • 09.05.2011 1:19 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Kaltyr
I'm sure humans can see past the fact that the Elites were mislead into fighting us.

I can't. I see that as a bit naive. If they do in the canon then Halo is probably not much more than a spurious travesty of Humanity. (Which it already is tbh)

Posted by: Kaltyr
After all, many Elites questioned why humans could not join the Covenant; they respected us.

Only one did, and no they don't respect us at all. They view grunts with more respect than us.

  • 09.06.2011 10:15 AM PDT

United Armed Forces

"Yo bro, sorry about that genocide thing, but we won't do it again. You need some help against these nubcakse?"


"NO I DUN WANTS YOUR HELP".

Only an idiot turns away a friendly hand.

Turning away the last chance for humanity's survival would be the greatest disrespect possible towards those dead.

  • 09.06.2011 2:25 PM PDT

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