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Subject: Could a Human-Sangheili alliance be a disrespect...


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Kaltyr
I'm sure humans can see past the fact that the Elites were mislead into fighting us.

I can't. I see that as a bit naive. If they do in the canon then Halo is probably not much more than a spurious travesty of Humanity. (Which it already is tbh)

Posted by: Kaltyr
After all, many Elites questioned why humans could not join the Covenant; they respected us.

Only one did, and no they don't respect us at all. They view grunts with more respect than us.


I don't see how the first part works out. Yes it'd take a while, but eventually they could move on.

Second part makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Elite culture views those that impress them in combat with respect. How can we say only a single elite questioned that? How can we say only four elites respected humans? It's like saying every Islamic person wants to kill America.

Based off the Elite culture, I see them viewing humanity with a form of respect after the war due to how fiercely humanity fought.

  • 09.06.2011 2:40 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: GnadeMasta
"Yo bro, sorry about that genocide thing

But they do not sound sorry about it in the slightest.

Posted by: GnadeMasta
Turning away the last chance for humanity's survival would be the greatest disrespect possible towards those dead.

Humanity does not need them though. With umpteen Forerunner artifacts scattered across the remaining Human worlds, the Voi portal and the captured Huragok there is no need for their help. It is actually the other way around.

In helping those who killed so many of your people and who thoroughly enjoyed doing so and wished for the slaughter to continue to its fullest extent, and who are neither truly sorry for it nor try to offer anything in return for the atrocities committed sounds like an insult to those killed. Even if Humanity needed their help, that would be a case of discarding principles in order to preserve them which makes them fully pointless. Additionally, most of the victims were murdered and could not die for anything - not for Humanity's future or anything like that (that is the soldiers), they just died. If you are shot in the back whilst walking down the street you have not given your life for anything, so it is the same for the civilians who were glassed from orbit. Respecting their murderers sounds a bit disrespectful to them.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I don't see how the first part works out. Yes it'd take a while, but eventually they could move on.

After a very long time, yes. Not in the current generation, or maybe even the second generation, but perhaps the third. However by that time an alliance is pointless and unneeded anyway.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Second part makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Elite culture views those that impress them in combat with respect. How can we say only a single elite questioned that? How can we say only four elites respected humans?

Based off the Elite culture, I see them viewing humanity with a form of respect after the war due to how fiercely humanity fought.

We have a source [Somewhere, I think it was the Encyclopedia] that states that they accepted fighters of the grunt rebellion into their ranks due to their bravery which is inline with their culture.

We have no source at all that states how the Elites felt as a whole towards Humans. What we do have is multiple independant sources with Elites displaying disgust and hatred. (With the exception of only 4 Elites. There are twice as many, maybe more, showing the opposite. This is grounds to say that feelings of hatred are far more common.) How is this the case despite their culture? The difference between Grunts and Humans is religious. The Grunts were simply fighting the Covenant over equal rights. Humanity however were branded as heretics, told to be nothing more than vermin, "dehumanized" (If you'll excuse the term...) and made faceless and told to be everything that your Gods despise; Demons and devils essentially. They were indoctrinated to believe this. The Prophets made the Elites trample their own sense of honour. It is not so much of a stretch to assume that they also made them ignore their culture.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
It's like saying every Islamic person wants to kill America.

Not quite. It is like saying that all of Al Qaeda want to kill America, which is probably the truth, otherwise they would not join it. Islam's Imams as a whole do not make an effort to indoctrinate every single one of their acolytes into believing that non-believers are worthy of nothing but death. The Covenant religion does, and all of the Elites have been exposed to the same rubbish all their lives.

  • 09.06.2011 3:24 PM PDT

Eat, Sleep, Row

Can Germans and Jews be friends? Yes! (not to be stereotypical to anyone reading this, it was just the first thing that popped into my mind)

  • 09.06.2011 4:18 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: RECKLESS XLII
Can Germans and Jews be friends? Yes! (not to be stereotypical to anyone reading this, it was just the first thing that popped into my mind)

Germans =/= Na­zis

Even within the Na­zis you have to take into consideration the effects that Milgram's experiment highlighted; that you can do bad things even though it goes against your deepest moral convictions so long as you are ordered to do it by a strong authority. And of course the fact that some were truly sorry for what they did. This adds up to people who did not truly hate the Jews and who wished to turn back the clock if they could because they sorely regretted doing it. In this case you are not helping the same barbarism and hubris that lead to all those deaths in the first place, because they never felt it or don't feel it anymore.

  • 09.06.2011 4:31 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: RECKLESS XLII
Can Germans and Jews be friends? Yes! (not to be stereotypical to anyone reading this, it was just the first thing that popped into my mind)

Germans =/= Na­zis

Even within the Na­zis you have to take into consideration the effects that Milgram's experiment highlighted; that you can do bad things even though it goes against your deepest moral convictions so long as you are ordered to do it by a strong authority. And of course the fact that some were truly sorry for what they did. This adds up to people who did not truly hate the Jews and who wished to turn back the clock if they could because they sorely regretted doing it. In this case you are not helping the same barbarism and hubris that lead to all those deaths in the first place, because they never felt it or don't feel it anymore.


But... if I'm taking this right, while portions of the -blam!- group can feel that way, the Elites could not?

  • 09.06.2011 4:37 PM PDT

@JosephBiwald
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Per Audacia Ad Astra

To a few Humans, yes. But I would think the humans would blame the rest of the massacre on the Covenant.
Posted by: anton1792
...to all those who were massacred in the Human-Covenant war?

(If it happens of course, which it probably will not, but it is a question I have never seen asked before.)

  • 09.06.2011 4:47 PM PDT

The assumption that our technology would sky rocket past that of the Sangheili is misguided.

How long did the UNSC have the knowledge and research of forerunner complex on the planet onyx? since 2511.

within that time, no technology what so ever had been brought from that.

now humanity has a massive slip space portal in Africa and 1 flood infested halo installation, what there going to get from those except for faster travel is little to none.

also, the first technology we could make from this would be quite similar to Covenant tech as that is essentially reversed engineered forerunner tech, though we will improve on it, but whats to say the Sangheili won't do the same? the are controlled by the religious views of the prophets and are now no longer forbidden to tamper with the technology, not to mention the fact that they most likely have millions more Huragok than us, as opposed to our one.

  • 09.06.2011 5:22 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
But... if I'm taking this right, while portions of the -blam!- group can feel that way, the Elites could not?

They can. It is just far too insignificant to amount to anything meaningful. This is the list that respect Humans:

~Zhar
~Reff 'Talamee
~N'tho 'Sraom
~Anonymous subordinate Elite #1 from Conversations from the Universe
~Anonymous Ranking Elite #2 from Conversations from the Universe (This guy actually sounded pretty apathetic to Humanity, as if he really could not care less either way, but I will grant it)

Here is a list of those who hated, slandered or were disgusted by Humans:

~Bako 'Ikaporamee
~'Kasamee
~Thel 'Lodamee
~Isna 'Nosolee
~Jora 'Konaree
~Voro 'Mantakree
~Ripa 'Moramee
~'Ontomee
~Thon 'Talamee
~Thel 'Vadamee
~Rtas 'Vadumee
~Je'ddak Zule
~Xytan 'Jar Wattinree
~Orna 'Fulsamee
~Zuka 'Zamamee
~"Subject 386"

There are lots more that we do not have any indication on either way; like 30 or something, mostly minor characters with only a sentence at most. Due to their religion and the above, I see it turning out no better. 16 opposed to 5. No grounds to say that Sangheili in anyway as a society respected Humanity in the slightest. It would have been a secretive thing that very few felt who kept it to themselves.

  • 09.06.2011 5:23 PM PDT

Well, forgive this comment... Duh.

Would you openly say "I respect the fighting spirit of the humans." in the Covenant at all? Like in conversations from the universe.

Besides, didn't Thel agree with Zhar about the humans maybe having some honor about the ODST who stayed behind to fight them?

edit: When Thel returned from his mission to the 23 Librae system with a promotion to a command in the newly formed Fleet of Particular Justice, he confided in Lak that he was confused about his old beliefs about the perceived omnipotence of the San 'Shyuum and the worthlessness of the humans.

On the page about Lak 'Vadamee. It then does to say how Thel was noticeably less zealous later on.

[Edited on 09.06.2011 5:33 PM PDT]

  • 09.06.2011 5:31 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: otterboyz
The assumption that our technology would sky rocket past that of the Sangheili is misguided.

How long did the UNSC have the knowledge and research of forerunner complex on the planet onyx? since 2511.

within that time, no technology what so ever had been brought from that.

now humanity has a massive slip space portal in Africa and 1 flood infested halo installation, what there going to get from those except for faster travel is little to none.

also, the first technology we could make from this would be quite similar to Covenant tech as that is essentially reversed engineered forerunner tech, though we will improve on it, but whats to say the Sangheili won't do the same? the are controlled by the religious views of the prophets and are now no longer forbidden to tamper with the technology, not to mention the fact that they most likely have millions more Huragok than us, as opposed to our one.

The Sangheili cannot advance, they can really only go back the way. They have almost no scientific base, and have not had one for nearly 3000 years. They do not have the scientific understand required to produce this technology (Not even the Prophets had that) nor do they have access to the Prophets blueprints. They cannot replace weapons or repair ships. (Certain weapons and technologies were only produced on High Charity, now lost forever) They also don't really have that much Huragok, given the fact that we know that they cannot mass produce weaponry anymore, nor repair their ships. A theory that fits the facts. One has to wonder how much of their infrastructure is based on technology that they cannot understand. (They have a dam that is essentially a giant energy shield. If that begins to break down, what are they going to do?)

Humanity meanwhile has brought their terraforming time of glassed planets down from 300 years to just 30 years judging from the end of Reach. I think it is safe to say that Humanity eclipses the Elites by 2580s. As for the other things, Humanity's access to Onyx was stumped by the AI Assembly in fear that Humanity was not quite ready for such powerful technology. Halsey only managed to decrypt the Forerunner language in 2552 at the Babd Catha artifact. With this, advances will probably come in a lot quicker now that we can fully access their databases.

Most of this is rather drilled home quite incessantly in the Return you know...


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Would you openly say "I respect the fighting spirit of the humans." in the Covenant at all? Like in conversations from the universe.

I remember that Halopedia gave a reason (I don't know if it is still there) that Elites only said these things to impress the Prophets, and secretly discussed Humanity's bravery amongst themselves. Despite the issue with using Conversations from the Universe as a source for this (It is only 2 Elites), there are many instances of Elites verbally trashing Humans even when they are in private, or thinking these things inside their own head. Most of the above list do it.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Besides, didn't Thel agree with Zhar about the humans maybe having some honor about the ODST who stayed behind to fight them?

He dismissed it by saying "You think too much, Zharn".

When Thel returned from his mission to the 23 Librae system with a promotion to a command in the newly formed Fleet of Particular Justice, he confided in Lak that he was confused about his old beliefs about the perceived omnipotence of the San 'Shyuum and the worthlessness of the humans.
He was telling Lak about how he met a Human as strong and fast as them, not about their supposed worthiness. Nothing about the subject was mentioned after that.

  • 09.06.2011 5:53 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: otterboyz
The assumption that our technology would sky rocket past that of the Sangheili is misguided.

How long did the UNSC have the knowledge and research of forerunner complex on the planet onyx? since 2511.

within that time, no technology what so ever had been brought from that.

now humanity has a massive slip space portal in Africa and 1 flood infested halo installation, what there going to get from those except for faster travel is little to none.

also, the first technology we could make from this would be quite similar to Covenant tech as that is essentially reversed engineered forerunner tech, though we will improve on it, but whats to say the Sangheili won't do the same? the are controlled by the religious views of the prophets and are now no longer forbidden to tamper with the technology, not to mention the fact that they most likely have millions more Huragok than us, as opposed to our one.

The Sangheili cannot advance, they can really only go back the way. They have almost no scientific base, and have not had one for nearly 3000 years. They do not have the scientific understand required to produce this technology (Not even the Prophets had that) nor do they have access to the Prophets blueprints. They cannot replace weapons or repair ships. (Certain weapons and technologies were only produced on High Charity, now lost forever) They also don't really have that much Huragok, given the fact that we know that they cannot mass produce weaponry anymore, nor repair their ships. A theory that fits the facts. One has to wonder how much of their infrastructure is based on technology that they cannot understand. (They have a dam that is essentially a giant energy shield. If that begins to break down, what are they going to do?)

Humanity meanwhile has brought their terraforming time of glassed planets down from 300 years to just 30 years judging from the end of Reach. I think it is safe to say that Humanity eclipses the Elites by 2580s. As for the other things, Humanity's access to Onyx was stumped by the AI Assembly in fear that Humanity was not quite ready for such powerful technology. Halsey only managed to decrypt the Forerunner language in 2552 at the Babd Catha artifact. With this, advances will probably come in a lot quicker now that we can fully access their databases.

Most of this is rather drilled home quite incessantly in the Return you know...


Apparently Iruiru armory, located on Sanghelios, creates are large amount of the main infantry fighting weapons.

The fact that it's on Sanghelios makes it very likely that they understand how to produce these weapons.

Also, only Halsey decrypted it and only here and cortana have the information from it, both are missing and not in contact with the UNSC.

  • 09.06.2011 6:05 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: otterboyz
Apparently Iruiru armory, located on Sanghelios, creates are large amount of the main infantry fighting weapons.

The fact that it's on Sanghelios makes it very likely that they understand how to produce these weapons.

Yes, there is also the Engineers of Qikost too.

However this proves nothing about their understanding of the technology. The foundrys that produced the Scarabs seemed to be automated, as these places may very well could be as well.

Cortana, in First Strike, also remarks on how poorly the Covenant understood their technology (And that is when they are at the height of their power, with the Prophets in charge with all the Huragok at their disposal. Imagine what things are like now...) One thing I always remembered is how she says that they do not have a very good grasp of Maxwell's Field Equations of Electromagnetism. That pretty much seals the deal. Look up the equations, (Or a brief intro to them) they are the foundations of modern physics and technology. An solid understanding of them is pretty much required to produce computers and electronics, telecommunications, manipulate plasma and a whole other range of things.

Posted by: otterboyz
Also, only Halsey decrypted it and only here and cortana have the information from it, both are missing and not in contact with the UNSC.

Cortana returns to UNSC space after Halo CE and hands over all of her information to the UNSC.

  • 09.06.2011 6:18 PM PDT

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

If you're interested in Halo's music, check this out.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Speaking of chuckles, let's all lol at IonicPaul, who makes friends with bugs to make up for his lack of human contact.

Posted by: anton1792
Germans =/= Na­zis

Even within the Na­zis you have to take into consideration the effects that Milgram's experiment highlighted; that you can do bad things even though it goes against your deepest moral convictions so long as you are ordered to do it by a strong authority. And of course the fact that some were truly sorry for what they did. This adds up to people who did not truly hate the Jews and who wished to turn back the clock if they could because they sorely regretted doing it. In this case you are not helping the same barbarism and hubris that lead to all those deaths in the first place, because they never felt it or don't feel it anymore.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, you had many people who didn't have any real reason to hate the Jews completely that totally agreed with the National Socialist policy of discrimination. I'm betting that many of them, once finding out how they were manipulated, were a lot less hateful of Jews afterwards.

Think of it: The National Socialist Party (you know what I mean) led the Germans, and many Germans hated Jews under their rule, even though if they weren't filled with propaganda, they wouldn't hate Jews at all. The same applies to Elites. Completely accepting of the Prophet propaganda, they were conditioned to hate humans with every fiber of their bodies. Many of them, after a long amount of combat, described how they would often valiantly fight to the death. The large list of Elites you described who had total and utter contempt for the humans was mostly during the war, when they were following the propaganda.

I'm going to infer that small amount of Elites who respected the humans grew largely after they left the Covenant, just like how many Germans who openly hated Jews came to accept them (not all of them, of course).

[Edited on 09.06.2011 6:34 PM PDT]

  • 09.06.2011 6:34 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Yes, there is also the Engineers of Qikost too.

However this proves nothing about their understanding of the technology. The foundrys that produced the Scarabs seemed to be automated, as these places may very well could be as well.

Cortana, in First Strike, also remarks on how poorly the Covenant understood their technology (And that is when they are at the height of their power, with the Prophets in charge with all the Huragok at their disposal. Imagine what things are like now...) One thing I always remembered is how she says that they do not have a very good grasp of Maxwell's Field Equations of Electromagnetism. That pretty much seals the deal. Look up the equations, (Or a brief intro to them) they are the foundations of modern physics and technology. An solid understanding of them is pretty much required to produce computers and electronics, telecommunications, manipulate plasma and a whole other range of things.


Most modern day factories are largely automated to have a higher productivity than a non-automated production line. Does this mean that we have a lesser understanding of how a car is made or how a gun works? It doesn't. Then to program the robotics to create an item still requires are understanding of said item.

It's also stated in Halseys journal that the jackle shield gauntlet recovered was a "older variant" of recent ones, meaning that the covenant do upgrade their technology.

Posted by:anton1792
Cortana returns to UNSC space after Halo CE and hands over all of her information to the UNSC.


It took nearly 25 years to crack shielding technology by the humans

  • 09.06.2011 6:47 PM PDT

When people say that the humans and Elites will form an alliance, I think they mean over several, several years, not like next week or anything.

  • 09.06.2011 6:50 PM PDT

And the fact that "limited knowledge" of the Covenant technology by the Sangheili was imposed to them by the rule of the prophets, but now with them out of the picture, the Sangheili are free to learn to their hearts desire.

  • 09.06.2011 6:56 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: otterboyz
Most modern day factories are largely automated to have a higher productivity than a non-automated production line. Does this mean that we have a lesser understanding of how a car is made or how a gun works? It doesn't.

We? Who is we?

The general populace? No. The factory workers? No, they only know the machinery. (That would be the Huragok, which have seemingly disappeared. Thus the factories will fall silent.) The scientists and Engineers? Yes.

And what does it say in the Return about the Sangheili's scientific establishment? That they have no scientists. They are a race of soldiers after all. Again, (And I do not know why you keep ignoring this, but quite frankly doing so is pretty unscrupulous) the Sangheili have trouble repairing ships, to say nothing of replacing them. The Shipmaster says that the Sangheili largely lacked the understanding to turn Forerunner technology into useful tools as the Prophets held all the blueprints and the technical know how. The Shipmaster is using a metal blade rather than the symbolic energy sword, and he resorts to stealing a Human sidearm saying that it will be useful in future. What need is there for Human weapons if they can supposedly produce their own? Where is his plasma sword?

Posted by: otterboyz
Then to program the robotics to create an item still requires are understanding of said item.

Yes, and can you guess who was responsible for this? The San-Shyuum and the Huragok, who are now gone.

Posted by: otterboyz
It's also stated in Halseys journal that the jackle shield gauntlet recovered was a "older variant" of recent ones, meaning that the covenant do upgrade their technology.

Great, but how is this relevant to the Sangheili and their situation after Halo 3?

Posted by: otterboyz
It took nearly 25 years to crack shielding technology by the humans

The reason for that is because Covenant technology self destructs and that the material is impenetrable to scanning. This does not mean that Humanity cannot understand it, it just means that they cannot get a chance to study it properly at all. The fact that you cannot get a chance to gain access to something does not mean that you cannot understand it.

Posted by: otterboyz
And the fact that "limited knowledge" of the Covenant technology by the Sangheili was imposed to them by the rule of the prophets, but now with them out of the picture, the Sangheili are free to learn to their hearts desire.

And how are they going to do that exactly? Who is going to teach them 100+ years of scientific discovery? Who is going to take control of their decaying infrastructure in the meantime?

[Edited on 09.06.2011 7:31 PM PDT]

  • 09.06.2011 7:08 PM PDT
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It could be. It really depends on the families of the victims, and whether or not they are willing to forgive and forget what happened, and accept the alliance. Although I imagine that would be hard, especially for humans.

  • 09.06.2011 7:12 PM PDT



We as in Humanity.

Posted by: anton1792

We? Who is we?

The general populace? No. The factory workers? No, they only know the machinery. (That would be the Huragok, which have seemingly disappeared. Thus the factories will fall silent.) The scientists and Engineers? Yes.

And what does it say in the Return about the Sangheili's scientific establishment? That they have no scientists. They are a race of soldiers after all. Again, (And I do not know why you keep ignoring this, but quite frankly doing so is pretty unscrupulous) the Sangheili have trouble repairing ships, to say nothing of replacing them. The Shipmaster says that the Sangheili largely lacked the understanding to turn Forerunner technology into useful tools as the Prophets held all the blueprints and the technical know how. The Shipmaster is using a metal blade rather than the symbolic energy sword, and he resorts to stealing a Human sidearm saying that it will be useful in future. What need is there for Human weapons if they can supposedly produce their own? Where is his plasma sword?

Yes, and can you guess who was responsible for this? The San-Shyuum and the Huragok, who are now gone.

Posted by: otterboyz
It's also stated in Halseys journal that the jackle shield gauntlet recovered was a "older variant" of recent ones, meaning that the covenant do upgrade their technology.

Great, but how is this relevant to the Sangheili and their situation after Halo 3?

The reason for that is because Covenant technology self destructs and that the material is impenetrable to scanning. This does not mean that Humanity cannot understand it, it just means that they cannot get a chance to study it properly at all. The fact that you cannot get a chance to gain access to something does not mean that you cannot understand it.

And how are they going to do that exactly? Who is going to teach them 100+ years of scientific discovery? Who is going to take control of their decaying infrastructure in the meantime?


Who mentioned that they had a Decaying infrastructure?
It seems as though you are creating situations of the aftermath of the civil war that you prefer. There are still Huragok on board each Sangheili ship which can be communicated to within that ship as shown int halo: First strike where cortana uses one of the ships programs to communicate with the ship, also if a Unngoy can communicate with them in contact harvest, why couldn't Sangheili?

Sangheili have built space fairing ships before without the use of forerunner technology so they aren't incapable of developing new technology's or having scientists. They could even Reverse engineer the weapons facilities on their planet

and when you say about learning 100+ years of scientific discovery? How could you say that when you talk about humanities 1,000+ years of scientific discovery in 30 years?

  • 09.06.2011 8:03 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: otterboyz
Who mentioned that they had a Decaying infrastructure?

Common sense. Things will break down and need fixing. There is indication that some of the Sangheili's infrastructure is based on sophisticated technology; technology that we have been told explicitly in The Return that they can not reproduce.

Posted by: otterboyz
It seems as though you are creating situations of the aftermath of the civil war that you prefer.

No. I think you are either trolling, have not read any of the materials concerning this or are just a bit stupid. This discussion was finished when Evolutions came out. Most people can accept the following lines:

Evolution: Page 507
...but since the Prophets controlled all of the major learnings that transformed Forerunners gifts into tools of the Great Journey, the Sangheili now largely lacked the understanding to build new facilities and weapons for themselves. The Sangheili steadily lost ships they could not easily repair, let alone replace. Their time seemed to be running out.


The Return motion comic is where he states that they have no scientist, morality, government or direction in life.

Posted by: otterboyz
There are still Huragok on board each Sangheili ship which can be communicated to within that ship as shown int halo: First strike where cortana uses one of the ships programs to communicate with the ship, also if a Unngoy can communicate with them in contact harvest, why couldn't Sangheili?

I am now fully convinced that you have no idea that you are talking about. Communication difficulties has got nothing to do with this, the fact that the Huragok no longer appear to be doing their job, as seen in that above quote, implies that they are probably not even there anymore.

Posted by: otterboyz
Sangheili have built space fairing ships before without the use of forerunner technology so they aren't incapable of developing new technology's or having scientists. They could even Reverse engineer the weapons facilities on their planet

The fact that they posessed these technologies once before does not necessarily mean that they will be able to suddenly start churning them out after the civil war. They have not needed to rely upon themselves for 3000 years, thus their scholarly establishments and communities, and knowledge base will have decayed substantially to the point of non-existence. Where are they going to pull physicists and engineers, mathematicians and doctors from so suddenly?

We used to have a weapon called Greek Fire that was used by the Byzantines in naval warfare around 1000AD. That formula is now lost to us. So technology is not always assured to a civilization once it is created. It can be forgotten, which evidently has happened here, otherwise the Shipmaster would not be making such a big deal out of it.

Posted by: otterboyz
and when you say about learning 100+ years of scientific discovery? How could you say that when you talk about humanities 1,000+ years of scientific discovery in 30 years?

Humanity has scientific establishments and is highly innovative. The Sangheili do not, and are imitative.

  • 09.06.2011 8:46 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: IonicPaul
On the opposite side of the spectrum, you had many people who didn't have any real reason to hate the Jews completely that totally agreed with the National Socialist policy of discrimination. I'm betting that many of them, once finding out how they were manipulated, were a lot less hateful of Jews afterwards.

So I think I can see what you are saying, that even those who did hate them came to the realization that they were wrong in both their feelings and actions. However Traviss' summary of Glasslands betrays this reality. This is better explained below.

Posted by: IonicPaul
Think of it: The National Socialist Party (you know what I mean) led the Germans, and many Germans hated Jews under their rule, even though if they weren't filled with propaganda, they wouldn't hate Jews at all. The same applies to Elites. Completely accepting of the Prophet propaganda, they were conditioned to hate humans with every fiber of their bodies. Many of them, after a long amount of combat, described how they would often valiantly fight to the death. The large list of Elites you described who had total and utter contempt for the humans was mostly during the war, when they were following the propaganda.

I'm going to infer that small amount of Elites who respected the humans grew largely after they left the Covenant, just like how many Germans who openly hated Jews came to accept them (not all of them, of course).

If harming this one Human in Glasslands is a cause for dishonor, then Sangheili society must be the source of this belief, otherwise there would not be any shame cast on the Sangheili who did this. His justification for harming the Human being a dishonor was that he is so weak and small, and so far beneath them. These must be held by Sangheili society at large in order for this to be a dishonor. This means that the groups who do view Humans respectfully after the war are small minorities with almost no sway at all.

  • 09.07.2011 12:22 PM PDT

Some of the elites actually wanted the Humans to the covenant as they had proven they were warriors on the battlefield and were truely a foe to be respected but the prophets said no and began to phase out the elites starting the break up of the covenant. Post eventsd of Halo 3 I read in on of the books in halo legends that the elites were trying to wipe out the remaining covenant and the humans had begun to rebuild after the population fell into the millions from billions.

  • 09.07.2011 2:27 PM PDT

If anyone wants to get together and play some Marathon Durandal on the xbox contact me and we can work something out.

Yes and no. I think there would be opposition from some, but i think a large portion of people would see it as a great opportunity. After the war humanity was left fairly weak, disorganized, and pretty much in chaos. I mean we had just barley survived being exterminated, an alliance with the Sangheili would be extremely favorable.

  • 09.07.2011 2:35 PM PDT

But the aliance saved thousands of lives I think that the dead would be thankful that no more blood was spilled due to this alliance, think about it if they never made it the war would still be going on, or humanity would already be dead

  • 09.07.2011 3:38 PM PDT

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