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This topic has moved here: Subject: Just How Effective Were/Are the Marines?
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Subject: Just How Effective Were/Are the Marines?

Someone please source a quote saying that the UNSC won most ground engagements?

Please.

[Edited on 09.13.2011 10:08 PM PDT]

  • 09.13.2011 10:06 PM PDT

I like this Halo wars cutscene because it shows marines kicking covenants ass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2imJj8gu7w
So yeah. It depends of what are circumstances but they are very capable.

  • 09.13.2011 10:36 PM PDT


Posted by: LonE ZealoT

Posted by: BlueRuby2k10

Posted by: Makko Mace
Edit: though , if Covennant didn't get airsupport and the Marines were well supplied and the numbers were more or less even they could well win, how ever that was rarely the case.


Right, because the UNSC doesn't have air support, not counting their Longswords, Falcons, and Hornets. Only in space, is where the Covenant reign; aka the only place that mattered in this war.


Technically the Covenant owned the ground as well then. Their cruisers could enter atmosphere undetected, or obliterate anything that would try to stop them.


I doubt coming in undetected was easy. A Frigate would be sent in to keep it busy. But as is your statement hypothetical, mine is as well.

As far as ground engagements go, Covenant always win simply because Human "Victories" come at high costs.

That doesn't make much sense. Humanity's technology on the ground was tactically superior compared to the Covenant's, not to mention better "battle smarts" as opposed to the Covenant's "en masse" "tactics". I guess it's just sacrificing logic to make the Covenant seem scary for the sake of drama, huh?

Still, some engagements (for example, the beginning cutscene in TotS in Reach) involve rushing in like kamikazes, those battles do involve high costs.
But still, there's always another, better way to go about sabotaging the Covenant without having so many sacrifices, especially within context of Halo: Reach, in which Noble Team could have just infiltrated quietly, and taken the AA guns out. THEN send the Frigates and the en masse UNSC force in. /off-topic

You lose a frigate, 6 tanks, and a detachment of marines; they lose a couple tanks, maybe a cruiser, and thousands of troops - all of which are quickly replaced.

You seem to be assuming the Marines are imbeciles.

Think about it-- the UNSC use smarter tactics, have superior, more practically tactical weapons (in the sense that their weapon's projectiles aren't slow) on the ground.
The Cruiser example is the only valid argument, but even then, heavier guns, or a fleet or a couple of ships (depending on the size of the Covie ship group) would be sent in to at least keep it busy, whether those UNSC ships win or not.
All of this said, playing tactically against the Covenant isn't easy; one slip up, and it's over for those humans.

And yes, I know I'm answering my own question to the thread--but I more-so wanted to hear people's opinions.

[Edited on 09.14.2011 3:42 PM PDT]

  • 09.14.2011 3:26 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

I can't remember if it was ever stated in one of the novels as well, but I found the line in the Encyclopedia. It is on Page 195:

"Ten years after the Covenant war had begun, the advancing Covenant forces had destroyed nearly all of the Outer Colony worlds. The war fell into a predictable pattern; Humans won isolated battles, usually during ground engagements, but always at great, great cost. Also, the space superiority of the Covenant meant that as soon as their fleets gathered over a colony, the Humans' ground victories were meaningless. One by one the colonies fell."
All it really tells us is that Humanity's victories were usually on the ground, which was common sense, but not how frequent they were. For their frequency, I always look at the events in the Flood as an example of what the UNSC can do when the Covenant does not have ships overhead. They took the Mesa, which was a well defended Covenant position at first, then they successfully defended that Mesa multiple times from the Covenant (First from a large wave of Ghosts, then from Elites sneaking in with a captured Pelican, then from a direct assault). They also got into the PoA, got supplies and then got the supply convoy back to Alpha base despite being put under heavy attack. Oh and then they attacked and captured a Covenant Cruiser, no less.

When the Covenant don't have large warships overhead, I think that it is a reasonable assumption to say that the UNSC is fairly competent against the Covenant. All of the time? No. (That line refers to the Spartans anyway) But most of the time? I could maybe accept that, because like it says, the ground victories are ultimately in vain when the starships roll in overhead. (It ceases to be a ground battle at that point anyway)

  • 09.14.2011 4:32 PM PDT

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That doesn't make much sense. Humanity's technology on the ground was tactically superior compared to the Covenant's, not to mention better "battle smarts" as opposed to the Covenant's "en masse" "tactics". I guess it's just sacrificing logic to make the Covenant seem scary for the sake of drama, huh?

There is a reason the Elites are refered to as superb tactitians, the UNSC was never stated to win most ground battles.

You seem to be assuming the Marines are imbeciles.
They aren't stupid, just out matched


Think about it-- the UNSC use smarter tactics, have superior, more practically tactical weapons (in the sense that their weapon's projectiles aren't slow) on the ground.
The Cruiser example is the only valid argument, but even then, heavier guns, or a fleet or a couple of ships (depending on the size of the Covie ship group) would be sent in to at least keep it busy, whether those UNSC ships win or not.
All of this said, playing tactically against the Covenant isn't easy; one slip up, and it's over for those humans.


The fact that you are basing plasma speed off gameplay is kinda sad... as is the fact you think UNSC weaponry is superior. How many times is it stated that the UNSC is technalogically outmatched?


Covenant have the numbers and the tech, they are at a disadvantage attacking, where they can be ambushed or trapped. The Marines can win, just not in a stand up fight, or at least without such high losses it's hardly a victory.




Edit in reply to Anton: The thing was in The Flood, those were ODSTs not normal Marines, in fact they were elite ODSTs hand picked for a topsecret mission.

But even they lost a lot of men in the fighting, for some of which they were supported by the Chief. (though they did kick some ass independantly)

Sidenote: if a Covenant Cruiser holds thousands of troops, and there were at least 5 attacking the Autum, why were only 300 ish sent in to attack the Mesa? It's not like they were needed elsewhere or anything...


[Edited on 09.14.2011 4:52 PM PDT]

  • 09.14.2011 4:47 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Makko Mace
Edit in reply to Anton: The thing was in The Flood, those were ODSTs not normal Marines, in fact they were elite ODSTs hand picked for a topsecret mission.

Well it ain't like ODST are impossible for normal people to become like it is with becoming a Spartan-II. But as for the Red Flag mission, I forgot about that. They would be the most competent ones.

Posted by: Makko Mace
There is a reason the Elites are refered to as superb tactitians, the UNSC was never stated to win most ground battles.

Where was it stated that they were superb tacticians? Their arrogance often prevents them from assessing an enemy objectively.

Anyway, I think it might be a fan made myth that the UNSC won most ground engagements then, like the whole "Elites respect us" thing. Though there is really no evidence to point either way, it would seem logical that the Covenant did based on their superior numbers and technology seeing as there is nothing that really points to the UNSC winning (That I can think of anyway).

  • 09.14.2011 5:23 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: anton1792
like the whole "Elites respect us" thing.


Read Cole Protocole. There are at least two instances that I can recall upon.

One, while Thel was aboard UNSC Two for Flintching, commenting he had heard of other Elite Strike Teams that humans would fight hard, almost honorably in some cases.

And another, where there were Elite's asking why humanity wasent given a chance to join the Covenant, as they were superb fighters on the ground, gaining some respect among the Elites. Very professional and effective.

  • 09.14.2011 5:27 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: anton1792
like the whole "Elites respect us" thing.

Read Cole Protocole. There are at least two instances that I can recall upon.

One, while Thel was aboard UNSC Two for Flintching, commenting he had heard of other Elite Strike Teams that humans would fight hard, almost honorably in some cases.

And another, where there were Elite's asking why humanity wasent given a chance to join the Covenant, as they were superb fighters on the ground, gaining some respect among the Elites. Very professional and effective.

I don't want to derail this thread too much with this, but I will pose the response as a question:

We see two Elites having a discussion in Conversations from the Universe. Just two Elites. Could we take two Humans who believe in, lets say, Flat Earth "theory", and then say that all Humans believe this, or even most, or even a percentage smaller than say 50%? 40%? Even 10%? I really don't think so. There are far more Elites that show hatred for Humans than those that do not. (There are 4, maybe 5 if you count Thel, but he is somewhat apathetic to it all, who respect Humans in any way)

[Edited on 09.14.2011 5:48 PM PDT]

  • 09.14.2011 5:45 PM PDT

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