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Subject: On the Morality of Banning

Loose talk is noose talk.

Hello fellow screwers.

Pull up a chair, whip out your pipe, and ready your underwear, because we're about to have a philosophical discussion on the morality of banning in the Bungie Community.

Start off by asking yourself this question: What makes an action bannable? The answer, as you would say, is whatever the rules say. In the rules, specific guidelines are laid out for violations and offenses. Violate a rule, and get banned. Pretty simple, right?
Answer.


I asked you the fundamental reason why actions are bannable. And you replied, in hoping that I would let you off the hook, by simply citing "the Rules". And now, I give you another opportunity to reply to my original question. To which, you will say, it doesn't matter, for we have no rights. Therefore, anything under the sky is bannable.

Good point, I say, but now this leads us to a dilemma. Mainly, if we have no rights, then who has the rights to impose upon us the eradication of our rights? The correct answer would be Bungie.

An assumption must now be made, and if you keep with me, you will see it is the only logical reason for why we have rules in the first place. Bungie makes rules so that they as a company can make sure that their website remains as clean and PR-friendly as possible. What makes something clean and PR-friendly? I say, what is moral. Therefore, the rules are based on the laws of morality. The laws of morality are a group of undefinable actions that bind us all to do certain things. For instance, everyone knows murder is wrong. Even in the most isolated culture, with no other human contact, they recognize murder is wrong. The reason, I speculate, is because of these universal laws of morality.

And now we come to the crux of the issue. Is an action bannable simply because Bungie says it is, or is it bannable just by itself? Please resist the urge to answer the former, by shouting out that we have no rights.

For here is the real issue with both answers: If an action is bannable only because Bungie says it is, then the rules have no foundation whatsoever in moral laws, meaning that there are no "good" or "bad" actions that can be done on bnet. Inherently, what this results in is the complete amorality of the Bungie community. This is so because the rules, and indeed morality are only a result of whatever Bungie decides it to be. By denouncing any universal laws of morality, the end result is an amoral community. Of course, this is not true, and our own moderators show this to be so. They are the modicum representatives of good in this community, and they are not good simply because some Bungie official said they are, for undoubtedly, they are good outside of Bungie, and therefore, good people all in all.

The main issue, though, must be that anything goes under this answer. For what is good and bad can be decided on a whim by Bungie, thus making good and bad irrelevant not only in Bungie, but also in the larger scheme of things.

If an action is bannable in of itself, then the problem becomes another, for now Bungie's omnipotence is rendered moot. For by introducing universal laws of morality into Bungie, Bungie loses the authority to say an action is bannable or not. This is also means that we do have rights, and these rights are inviolable by Bungie for they exist on planar level higher than what Bungie can dictate. Therefore, the entire foundation of bungie.net is a fallacy.

Let us now introduce an example into the field. Is spam a bannable offense only because Bungie says it is, or is it a bannable offense because it is a universally bad action? If the former, then spam would be universally permissible - outside Bungie - and one could spam to one's delight in the outside world. Society has already determined that spam is always bad, and were you to try it on other forums, you would get banned. If you do not get banned, then the forum you are in is immoral (or amoral). If the latter, then spam is universally impermissible. Already you can note the problems with that argument, for that means that Bungie's rules and other governing documents are irrelevant - for if spam is always disallowed, then the rules governing the permissibility of spam are on a higher plane then what Bungie can govern, therefore preventing them from governing on the issue.

Indeed, this is a major dilemma, and I will point out that there is no definitive answer (yet). To those of you who have studied philosophy, yes, this Euthyphro's Dilemma with a twist to make it relevant to Bungie.net. Please don't bring up religion, though, as this is not about that.

So, have at it. To repeat the main question of the dilemma: Is an action bannable because Bungie says it is, or is it so just by itself? And remember, it can't be both... or can it?

  • 09.15.2011 7:30 PM PDT

Thesaurus.com

Because Bungie says it is. These rules are common on many forums across the web. They make sense and create a better user base.

  • 09.15.2011 7:34 PM PDT

<3 PMS Clan-Twitter-Personal Site
Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

The action is bannable because you agreed upon sign-up to the ToU and CoC.
We reserve the right to terminate your access to any Bungie Web Sites communication service or delete without notice content found to be in violation of this Code of Conduct.

So, it's because Bungie said so.

  • 09.15.2011 7:41 PM PDT

Loose talk is noose talk.

Posted by: cortana 5
The action is bannable because you agreed upon sign-up to the ToU and CoC.
We reserve the right to terminate your access to any Bungie Web Sites communication service or delete without notice content found to be in violation of this Code of Conduct.

So, it's because Bungie said so.


Yes, I am aware of the ToU and CoC. The problem is, the ToU and CoC are completely irrelevant because they are whatever Bungie says they are. What this means is that the ToU and CoC are only there because Bungie allows it so. Without them, there would be no rules on Bungie. Also, because Bungie, as you say, sets all the rules and guidelines for the community, then I personally have no motivation to follow said rules and guidelines (not that I wouldn't). For my concern is to do good, and if there is no foundation of good, then I have no motivation to do good. Therefore, following the ToU and CoC are not "good" or "bad" actions. Not only that, but since Bungie can change those on a whim, then there is no moral foundation for their existence.

[Edited on 09.15.2011 7:51 PM PDT]

  • 09.15.2011 7:50 PM PDT

<3 PMS Clan-Twitter-Personal Site
Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

They're relevant because you agreed to them. Not following them would just be a broken promise on your part, leaving Bungie the option of fulfilling the end of the bargain (which begins with a hammer).

ie, the user accepted them as rules. Thus, they are relevant and moral because, again, the user agreed to them.
Posted by: Bob Bobinson
Posted by: cortana 5
The action is bannable because you agreed upon sign-up to the ToU and CoC.
We reserve the right to terminate your access to any Bungie Web Sites communication service or delete without notice content found to be in violation of this Code of Conduct.

So, it's because Bungie said so.


Yes, I am aware of the ToU and CoC. The problem is, the ToU and CoC are completely irrelevant because they are whatever Bungie says they are. What this means is that the ToU and CoC are only there because Bungie allows it so. Without them, there would be no rules on Bungie. Also, because Bungie, as you say, sets all the rules and guidelines for the community, then I personally have no motivation to follow said rules and guidelines (not that I wouldn't). For my concern is to do good, and if there is no foundation of good, then I have no motivation to do good. Therefore, following the ToU and CoC are not "good" or "bad" actions. Not only that, but since Bungie can change those on a whim, then there is no moral foundation for their existence.


[Edited on 09.15.2011 7:53 PM PDT]

  • 09.15.2011 7:52 PM PDT

I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
--Ralph Ellison

Maybe it's just because I'm a CS guy and don't understand any of the debates that take place in philosophy, but I don't understand what discussion you're trying to take from this.

Every forum has its own arbitrary set of rules because the administrators on these forums are all different people with different personalities. Cursing is not allowed here but is allowed on other forums, among many other things.

So yes, an offence is bannable because Bungie says it is because they think it should be. Whether or not any offence is bannable on any forum is up to the administrators of that forum.

  • 09.15.2011 8:01 PM PDT

Loose talk is noose talk.

Posted by: cortana 5
They're relevant because you agreed to them. Not following them would just be a broken promise on your part, leaving Bungie the option of fulfilling the end of the bargain (which begins with a hammer).

ie, the user accepted them as rules. Thus, they are relevant and moral because, again, the user agreed to them.
Posted by: Bob Bobinson
Posted by: cortana 5
The action is bannable because you agreed upon sign-up to the ToU and CoC.
We reserve the right to terminate your access to any Bungie Web Sites communication service or delete without notice content found to be in violation of this Code of Conduct.

So, it's because Bungie said so.


Yes, I am aware of the ToU and CoC. The problem is, the ToU and CoC are completely irrelevant because they are whatever Bungie says they are. What this means is that the ToU and CoC are only there because Bungie allows it so. Without them, there would be no rules on Bungie. Also, because Bungie, as you say, sets all the rules and guidelines for the community, then I personally have no motivation to follow said rules and guidelines (not that I wouldn't). For my concern is to do good, and if there is no foundation of good, then I have no motivation to do good. Therefore, following the ToU and CoC are not "good" or "bad" actions. Not only that, but since Bungie can change those on a whim, then there is no moral foundation for their existence.


My agreement to the ToU and CoC is not the matter at question here. I can agree to a lot of things. Doing so does not make those things moral. Thus, agreeing to the rules do not make them moral, for by you they are moral only because Bungie says they are, and therefore, they have no foundation in morality outside of Bungie.

My main rub is the foundation of the ToU and CoC. What are they founded on? My answer is, whatever Bungie says so. Therefore, if that is the case, then rules are not founded in morality. And therefore, there can be no good or bad actions on Bungie.

Also, yes, in this circumstance people can violate the rules, but doing so is not good or bad. It is only not allowed.

[Edited on 09.15.2011 8:03 PM PDT]

  • 09.15.2011 8:02 PM PDT
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Cey•lo•mons ['sey-lo-muns]
Foman is kinky

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
** Aren't you supposed to be ON vacation?
Posted by: Duardo
I was, but your mom left early so I had to cut the trip short.

Bungie.net isn't a philosophical playground, it's an extension of a business. A business does not need to consider "morals" or what the "universe" permits.

  • 09.15.2011 8:04 PM PDT

Loose talk is noose talk.

Posted by: Ceylomons
Bungie.net isn't a philosophical playground, it's an extension of a business. A business does not need to consider "morals" or what the "universe" permits.


We've discussed far more mundane things here before (anyone up for another nuke the flood thread this week?). I'm just attempting to inject something new into the forums.

Also, my goal with this thread is not to change how Bungie does business. My goal is to have a dialogue so that the community can gain knowledge.

  • 09.15.2011 8:10 PM PDT

',:|


Posted by: Bob Bobinson
If an action is bannable in of itself, then the problem becomes another, for now Bungie's omnipotence is rendered moot. For by introducing universal laws of morality into Bungie, Bungie loses the authority to say an action is bannable or not.
The thing is, though, they don't.
Bungie is going to have the right to remove you from this site whether the rules are based upon some sort of universal morality or not. Bungie's authority doesn't stem from any sort of enforcement of natural order- they just own this place and can do whatever they want.

Bungie can ban you without any justification- that's how this site goes. That fact should be enough to prove to you they determine what's "moral" on this site.


Posted by: Bob Bobinson
What are [the ToU and CoC] founded on? My answer is, whatever Bungie says so. Therefore, if that is the case, then rules are not founded in morality. And therefore, there can be no good or bad actions on Bungie.
I assume you mean morally good and morally bad.

Let's consider- moral.
"of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong;"
Any definition of morality has to do with conformation to the rules.

Bungie determines those. Thus, there are morally good and morally bad actions, as determined by Bungie.

[Edited on 09.15.2011 8:29 PM PDT]

  • 09.15.2011 8:16 PM PDT

I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
--Ralph Ellison

Posted by: Bob Bobinson
My main rub is the foundation of the ToU and CoC. What are they founded on? My answer is, whatever Bungie says so.


Is that not the same for all ToU and CoC? The only time something could strictly be immoral is if it's against the law and the ToU and CoC are quoting the law. And, really, if you're getting into the philosophy of it all, who says the laws are based on morality? It's just other people who have decided them and different countries have different laws...

  • 09.15.2011 8:28 PM PDT

yoo•zel- ('yoo-zhul): slang: vb.

Officium quod Fidelitas.

Questioning morality on the internet is about as productive as swimming in your bathtub with a toaster. Not to knock this thread for it's well thought out nature it is another paradoxical conundrum in which no answer will ever serve to appease any or all sides.

  • 09.15.2011 9:52 PM PDT

The bible is the best book Ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM A PROUD CHRISTIAN. HALO IS AWESOME BUT GOD IS MUCH BETTER!!!!!!!!
Did you knew that JESUSdied for you?

morality is irrelevant. As Hans Kelsen would asure Morality and law shouldn't mix.

Bungie has the right to ban us thanks to the faculty law gives them

The "you have no rights play nice" is a joke of course you have rights (constitutional rights) wheter bungie likes it or not.

But you are using their service under their conditions.Therefore under the law banning is legal.

  • 09.15.2011 10:22 PM PDT

Consol Embu
Xbox Ambassador

Hello community, If you have any questions or concerns then please feel free to ask, whatever it may be and I will answer them to the best of my knowledge/ability. (It may not be THE answer you're looking for but AN answer is better than NO answer.)

KEEP CALM AND PLAY XBOX
Thank you.


Posted by: Yoozel
Questioning morality on the internet is about as productive as swimming in your bathtub with a toaster. Not to knock this thread for it's well thought out nature it is another paradoxical conundrum in which no answer will ever serve to appease any or all sides.



Nice analogy.

  • 09.15.2011 10:47 PM PDT

I'll be on my own side.

You're injecting morality into something that doesn't need it. But if you insist, consider this. The vast majority of the rules exist to prevent things that are generally accepted to be annoying, disgusting, or just outright socially unacceptable in a civilized world.

We don't tolerate (for example) flaming, racism, shock sites, spreading misinformation, etc. I'm pretty sure most would agree that these behaviors are generally unwelcome in any environment.

And then of course, we have rules against things like advertising, quote pyramids, forum copping, and bumping, because that's just annoying and we don't want to see it.

  • 09.15.2011 11:07 PM PDT


Posted by: Yoozel
Questioning morality on the internet is about as productive as swimming in your bathtub with a toaster.


A clean you and a clean toaster at the same time sounds fairly productive.

  • 09.15.2011 11:10 PM PDT

"That's about all that can be said for plots, which anyway are just one thing after another, a what and a what and a what.

Now try how and why."


Posted by: coolmike699

Posted by: Yoozel
Questioning morality on the internet is about as productive as swimming in your bathtub with a toaster.


A clean you and a clean toaster at the same time sounds fairly productive.


Wisdom from a positively charged thinker full of all sorts of electrifying ideas...

  • 09.16.2011 10:20 AM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Banning people makes me feel sooooooo dirty.

  • 09.16.2011 10:27 AM PDT
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"This bandicoot will be my general, he will lead my Cortex Commandos to world domination...

This time, I shall reign TRIUMPHANT!"

-Dr. Cortex

It's bannable because they say it is.

Can it be a coincidence to say that it is so by itself on regular terms?

  • 09.16.2011 10:29 AM PDT

I think you're talking this too far...

  • 09.16.2011 10:33 AM PDT

In a time long past, the armies of the dark came again to the lands of men. Their leaders became known as the fallen lords, and their terrible sorcery was without equal in the west.
In 30 years they reduced the civilized nations into carrion and ash. Until the free city of Madrigal alone defined them. An army gathered there, and a desperate battle was joined against the fallen
Heros were born in the fire and bloodshed of the wars which followed and their names and deeds will never be forgotten


Posted by: Recon Number 54
Banning people makes me feel sooooooo dirty.


0-0

Id if doesn't feel right, don't do it. :p

  • 09.16.2011 11:19 AM PDT

That's why I think everything can fall under 'Play Nice'. I bet that there are fewer bans made on mistakes or in effort to teach normal forum etiquette. It should all fall under common sense. It's all intent. Bans are done to clean up the place from people intending to be malicious with their posts. The only real case where I think that this isn't true is when repeat conversation seem to come up. Like 'Recon Helmet', which may have no intent to be malicious and usually made by forum goers that only came here to get specific game questions answered. Those probably don't mean any harm, but can clog up our forums and can be considered spam.

Yeah, The basic principles of the rules here are absolutely an extension of basic morality or common courtesy. And most bans are dealt out to those that intend to be jerks and they are probably aware what the end result will be a ban and welcome it. Negative attention 101. I could be incorrect in my assumptions, the ninja that deal with it must know better than I. We have a young teen rage type member base, so maybe there truly is more of a learning process (of morality, or rather forum etiquette) going on with bans than I presume. I think the job of deciphering members intentions must be the hardest part of being of moderator. I see it in the way we Report, the obvious stuff intending to irritate or disrupt will get reported quickly and the system works. Where as the more grey area rule mistakes are sometimes not reported at all.

  • 09.16.2011 11:26 AM PDT
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Banning is just the structure in which people are punished for because they didn't obey the rules. The morality behind it is there, but it is an underlying value that is considered by the people that enforce the rules. -blam!- topics are off limits because the general public don't need to know about a person's perversion, for example.

  • 09.16.2011 11:43 AM PDT

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