Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: Bip, Bap, Boring! Welcome to Firefight.
  • Subject: Bip, Bap, Boring! Welcome to Firefight.
Subject: Bip, Bap, Boring! Welcome to Firefight.
  •  | 
  • Exalted Mythic Member
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

'Firefight Pro'
Gameplay example | Download gametype

Mirror: xbox.com

In my experience Firefight pits the player against relatively dull bullet sponges, which matchmaking attempts to compensate for with ridiculous loadouts, damage modifiers and a large, if not infinite, pool of lives. The only plausible explanation I can think of for playing Firefight in its current form is that is offers a sizeable pay out of credits. Campaign lacks even a plausible explanation.

However, like many aspects of Reach, both Campaign and Firefight are theoretically sound. The levels are well designed and the AI can flank, rush and fall back when necessary. The problem is that the current set-up does not lend well to any of these AI behaviours. You can choose to face dim witted and weak opponents, or more co-ordinated foes with near impregnable shielding; neither option is particularly enjoyable and both restrict variety.

This problem has persisted since Halo 2. In Halo 2 some Elites had the equivalent of 3x Overshields, yet they never advanced on the player, choosing instead to sit back and sponge clip after clip. All this did, aside from highlighting the shortcomings of enemy AI, was force the player to use a smaller pool of weapons in order to progress. Halo CE by comparison pitted you, the player, against weaker but more aggressive foes; difficulty came from enemies punishing your every error in combat, rather than punishing your poorly equipped presence. On the second mission for example it was not uncommon for Elites to run up the hillside, charging your position. Despite this aggression a skilled player could decimate Covenant squads with anything at their disposal, be it with a Plasma Rifle and its quick shield dissipation and freezing effect, the 'elite killer' Needler, the overcharged plasma pistol or powerful grenades. This created fast paced, challenging exchanges and allowed players to enjoy the breadth as well as the depth of the weapon sandbox. Difficulty in subsequent campaigns has been intensified by bolstering AI health, rather than increasing its ferocity.

[rant]Before I continue I would like to express my agreement that Halo 2's campaign, like its prequel, should be noted for its difficulty. However I believe it gains this reputation for the wrong reasons if we look at it from a gameplay point of view (reasons comparable to Halo 3 and little better in Halo Reach). What Halo 2 had was a harsh learning curve which is misinterpreted as difficulty (although I admit some levels [aka Gravemind] were particularly challenging). By a learning curve I mean that it was only once the player acknowledged the value of the plasma pistol that they could pass the first hanger bay of Cairo Station [with complete ease might I add] and that any level containing Jackal Snipers required the player to repeatedly replay sections until they had memorised the location of each sniper, as each wrong step was met with instant death again, and again; neither of these factors relied on any significant level of gaming prowess, instead they stifled variety and made gameplay frustrating.[/rant]

For a time I couldn't put my finger on the reason I enjoy the Campaign of CE more than its sequels. However here I believe I have finally found the answer. Simply put, strong [or 'unfair'] enemies are not only a pain in the ass to fight, they are boring. When I shoot something I should not have to unload an entire clip before my foe's shields have even popped, regardless of the difficulty. In Combat I should have multiple options, even -if not particularly- on Legendary. This comes with lower enemy health, but it also comes with a higher level of AI aggression that forces the need for quick decision making (which is otherwise only found in multiplayer). As a consequence of such changes I would be punished because the enemy actually outsmarted or outplayed me, rather than because I failed to use the plasma pistol. Reach has succeeded quite well in producing the latter (increased aggression), but rendered this pointless by failing to produce the former (lowering enemy health).

However, there may be a way to find the fun in Firefight. As already explained, Reach has a great deal of potential because of the intelligence and behaviour of the enemy AI. As Firefight is the only medium where AI and player traits can be altered it may be possible to turn this intelligence an asset, rather than it just being a frustration on higher difficulty levels. I initially came up with this idea when playing Doubles Attack several months back. It was the damage change in 2x Score Attack that injected some level of enjoyment. As a player I felt less restrained, I could leave the confines of the base on Unearthed and deal a good level of damage to the Covenant; this was particularly the case with the Rocket Hog. The only issue with the 2x gametype was that I felt no vulnerability; increased damage was coupled with an additional layer of shielding which completely negated any need for caution or cooperative play. This is why I feel completely changing the dynamics of Firefight would be beneficial.

The past week or so I've been without access to XBL so I decided to try putting my theory into practice (filename: Firefight Pro (play legendary)). The result is by no means perfect; even after a dozen or so iterations I'm not completely happy with it (so I can begin to understand the frustrations of designers!). The main things I have done are increase the player movement traits so that they are equivalent to Team Classic (to speed up gameplay and map movement); alter player shield and health charge times so that the player can frequently dip in and out of combat, rather than having to endure long periods of stagnation while waiting for their shields to recharge; heighten AI awareness (by using the wave traits eagle eyed and sharp) to produce even more aggressive characteristics; and reduce the damage the AI can deal and the damage the AI can take, so that they are placed on a more even footing with the player. With these changes I hope players will feel less restricted in terms of both weapon usage and map movement.

The purpose of this thread, aside from providing a nice opportunity to rant about/discuss the mechanics of campaign, is to also try and find the fun in Firefight. I welcome you to share your views on the campaign of all the Halo games from a gameplay perspective, try out the altered setup and maybe even share your own.


Disclaimer: I am not liable for any impact this wall of orange may have on your eyesight.

[Edited on 11.11.2011 6:05 AM PST]

  • 09.16.2011 7:11 AM PDT
Subject: Can the fun be found in Firefight?

Click here for my perfect Guardian remake! Guaranteed the best one on B.net
This is my second account, my first one (w0lf g4m3r) cannot be linked :(
Click here for Halo Reach Fails & Wins!

your orange text burnt my retinas.

OT, I loved firefight best in ODST, trying to get the vidmaster and general messing about on lost platoon.

  • 09.16.2011 7:14 AM PDT

The Renaissance Man; The Bigger Fool.

I've got your gametype on my queue and I'll try it when I get back from school.

  • 09.16.2011 7:15 AM PDT

Posted by: Sanuel Jackson
"I know, I wanted to 1 v 1 him and he had to warm up. Like seriously..."

Posted by: aBlueBookshelf
Well he wouldn't want to pull anything.

Geez san, you have to be more understanding.

I may have to take a look at this.

  • 09.16.2011 7:16 AM PDT

idc

  • 09.16.2011 7:18 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Legendary Member
  • gamertag: I Pye
  • user homepage:


Posted by: Mitchellmonster
idc


well why comment then?

ive downloaded it. well when i get home from work i will have

  • 09.16.2011 7:27 AM PDT

Happiness is a warm gun

I've also experimented with FF to try and create some enjoyable experiences, your variant seems like it would play well though, I downloaded it, will give feedback later.

Off Topic: I created a FF variant called "In the killing field" and it was this:

All Enemies are skirmishers of different types
Player spawns with energy sword and choice of sprint or evade
200% Speed
2xSheilds
Black eye on
Played on Overlook for maximum "Ninjas in the trees" kind of feel

So the only way to get sheilds back is by getting kills with your sword, it's pretty difficult I must say

[Edited on 09.16.2011 7:35 AM PDT]

  • 09.16.2011 7:31 AM PDT

I agree.

There really isn't a happy medium like you pointed out. Enemies are either hard as nails, or too easy.

One thing that could easily alter the flow of a Firefight game could be an alteration of the waves, and even enemies within each wave. I find the issue is the player now knows what enemies he will be facing next, and will arm him/herself with the right weapons.

Just altering what enemies will spawn during each wave could vastly increase my enjoyment of Firefight. Even mixing enemy types a bit more could increase the difficulty without changing the experience too much.

  • 09.16.2011 7:35 AM PDT

There is nothing for us but what we make for ourselves.

I wholeheartedly agree that the forced limitations in weapon use really restrict the amount of fun one can have in firefight. It's fun actually using the AR for a change in 2x as opposed to the forced plasma pistol/DMR Limited forces you to keep on hand.

  • 09.16.2011 7:37 AM PDT

Favorite Quote by an Anonymous YouTuber:
"I hate when people compare Ozzy to God, I mean, he's great, but he's not Ozzy..."

I, too, attempted to muster up my own Firefight variant. Unlike you, though, Tom, I find it a great deal of fun the harder the enemies are to defeat. Taking that into account, I've created a Firefight gametype that is nearly impossible to defeat on your own (I've never tried it co-op; not many friends of mine are on Reach at one time). Even on Easy, and with power weapons IN the loadouts, my game is excruciatingly tough.

Again, it's all about preferences. What one finds fun, others find boring.

I might try your Firefight gametype soon, to see what you've come up with.

  • 09.16.2011 7:40 AM PDT

Walk by faith. Dude. Not by sight.

yes

  • 09.16.2011 7:46 AM PDT

First off did anyone else notice, after reading all that orange, the normal white texts from posters looked kind of blue?

I completely agree with your post, I also believe that CE had the best, and most amazing campaign. IMO story wise as well as mechanically. I feel going through the Reach campaign is a chore (don't get me wrong the story and levels are amazing), and to be honest it's been a year since its release and I haven't even beat half of the missions on legendary. It just seems way too tedious!

I am currently at college, and with then be going to see Foo Fighters tonight *insert tangible moment of excitement* So sadly I don't think I will get you your variant tonight. I have it in my active transfers and will probably get a chance to play it over the weekend.

[Edited on 09.16.2011 7:48 AM PDT]

  • 09.16.2011 7:47 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I'll try it out.

  • 09.16.2011 7:54 AM PDT

Favorite Quote by an Anonymous YouTuber:
"I hate when people compare Ozzy to God, I mean, he's great, but he's not Ozzy..."

By the way, Tom, I saw that "Hell's Jerome" clip in your File Share, and I believe I would've been thinking the same thing the description expressed! XD

  • 09.16.2011 7:59 AM PDT

I totally agree. Whenever I play Reach's campaign on harder levels (with skulls on and whatnot), the AI sponges too much of my ammunition, and its a hassle to just take down one of 10 Elites. I have to go for the assasination each time since gunning them down isn't optimal in any way, and then I end up attempting 50 different scenarios of the same area. With Firefight, its just about the same way, only there is another side to it: it can be too easy as well. Some modes just make it seem like there is no challenge involved, and it gets boring spawn killing the Grunts as they step out of their Phantoms and Spirits, while I take minimal damage. ODST's Firefight was greater in gameplay for Firefight in that I could take down Brutes and other foes with good tactics and team fire, but I couldn't take too much damage myself, and the AI loved to swarm you when you were attempting to heal up behind that wall you thought protected you.

I like CE's campaign more than Reach's and ODST's Firefight more than Reach's because while the enemies aren't sponging bullets, I'm not able to either; while its still difficult, not EVERY SINGLE SCENARIO is too much of a hassle, and it then gives the experiences more longevity.

  • 09.16.2011 7:59 AM PDT


Posted by: HC Lone Wolf
It's more fun to AFC in Reach's firefight.

ODST's FF is more fun.
I occationaly AFC in firefight, usually in doubles to feel like more of a dick. Plus I get like 4,200cRs for nothing.

  • 09.16.2011 8:21 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Mythic Member
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

Posted by: xSAD BUT TRU3x
I completely agree with your post, I also believe that CE had the best, and most amazing campaign. IMO story wise as well as mechanically. I feel going through the Reach campaign is a chore (don't get me wrong the story and levels are amazing), and to be honest it's been a year since its release and I haven't even beat half of the missions on legendary. It just seems way too tedious!
I think this says it all:

"You face opponents who have never known defeat, who laugh in alien tongues at your efforts to survive. This is suicide."
-------Description from Halo: Combat Evolved and Halo 2.

"Tremble as teeming hordes of invincible alien monsters punish the slightest error with instant death... again and again."
-------Description from Halo 3, Halo 3: ODST and Halo: Reach.

  • 09.18.2011 5:50 AM PDT

Posted by: CultMiester4000
I'm not really an Apple person (Bananas forever) but damn, that's kinda sad.

I was thinking the same thing recently, albeit in a much more condensed & "dumbed-down" way.

I'd like the difficulty to flow from the tactics of the enemies & their maneuvers, this "Bullet Sponge" crap gets tedious very quickly as you said.

Very good post.

But I have one problem; foes which can take no punishment but are very smart are equally boring; land a few good hits (or even one) and it removes the fun (In the form of the enemy dying). I would like if they found a balance between current legendary level & smarter foes.

  • 09.18.2011 5:57 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Reach has ended my 5 year addiction to Halo. Thanks Bungie!
GOML Noob
6/1/07

It is like in SHOGUN 2 Total war. The enemy AI gets absolutely massive bonuses to make the game appear difficult, when it is really just making up for a poor AI. And as soon as you learn how to beat the AI the hardest difficulty becomes as easy as the easiest.

Though I don't see an obvious solution as AI is probably the single hardest aspect to a game.

  • 09.18.2011 6:03 AM PDT

/=\ncient \_|_/arriors

I'm @ work, but WebFootJr is playing, so your variant should be on my HD now... I love CE, have it on my HD as well. When H2 dropped, it just seemed wrong, and I ended up losing my Xbox... FF to 6 most ago, and I finally replaced it with a 360 slim. H3 and ODST were my first 2 purchases. But they didn't feel quite right and I didn't have gold until 4 months ago. I got Reach hoping it'd be better... I have to agree that its not better, but still fun (mostly). I don't have the time to play like I used too (growing up sucks), but I have to agree that Reach has been "casualfied"... and as an unwilling casual player I like it, as an ex gamer... I don't.

  • 09.18.2011 6:43 AM PDT
Subject: Why play single player?
  •  | 
  • Honorable Member
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."

-2 Timothy 4:7

TL;DR --> I have to go somewhere soon ...

I liked the Campaign and I like FF, but that's just me.

I've enjoyed every one of the Halo campaigns, to be honest, including Halo Wars.

  • 09.18.2011 6:45 AM PDT
Subject: Can the fun be found in Firefight?

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

That.... was amazing. Everything you said, was like putting my thoughts of FireFight (and campaign) into words for me. Even though I play multiplayer more, I will always prefer a single player experience because it tests you. The only thing I could disagree with on this point is that I always thought FireFight should play more like Survival Mode in Left 4 Dead. The enemies are extremely agressive, but hold your ground and work together and you're fine.

That for me is the crucial flaw in FireFight: Teamwork is unnecessary. Not only is communication between random players seldom (if it's even existent), but all the things that could imply teamwork (Drop Shield to help out your buddies, picking the right loadouts to flow, help, and keep each other in check etc) do not do what they should. FireFight, in my opinion, should contain easily defeated (For lack of a better term, CE style), but extremely aggressive AI. However it should also force you to test your own playstyle. In my opinion FireFight should be about holding your ground and working together. Like in Left 4 Dead Survival mode, if you don't work together you don't have a chance.

  • 09.18.2011 7:10 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Honorable Member
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."

-2 Timothy 4:7


Posted by: MegaMuffin16
That.... was amazing. Everything you said, was like putting my thoughts of FireFight (and campaign) into words for me. Even though I play multiplayer more, I will always prefer a single player experience because it tests you. The only thing I could disagree with on this point is that I always thought FireFight should play more like Survival Mode in Left 4 Dead. The enemies are extremely agressive, but hold your ground and work together and you're fine.

That for me is the crucial flaw in FireFight: Teamwork is unnecessary. Not only is communication between random players seldom (if it's even existent), but all the things that could imply teamwork (Drop Shield to help out your buddies, picking the right loadouts to flow, help, and keep each other in check etc) do not do what they should. FireFight, in my opinion, should contain easily defeated (For lack of a better term, CE style), but extremely aggressive AI. However it should also force you to test your own playstyle. In my opinion FireFight should be about holding your ground and working together. Like in Left 4 Dead Survival mode, if you don't work together you don't have a chance.

I love playing FF by myself.

No lag, no stupidity, more kills, more cR, more fun.

  • 09.18.2011 7:13 AM PDT