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This topic has moved here: Subject: Master Chief vs. Noble Six
  • Subject: Master Chief vs. Noble Six
Subject: Master Chief vs. Noble Six
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Arsenal, you have yet, and cannot ever prove that S3's didn't get a similar reaction time boost. Why? Because we have no damn numbers on them post-augmentations, besides a brief mention of speed during Torpedo.

Also, you conveniently cut out Grace's death, which I'm pretty dang sure she was standing in the open. And you cut out the fact Chief, using FULL force to pin the brute, was losing. It started pushing him up with a single arm, and if he didn't use the grenade he wouldn't have been in a pretty picture.

You never did understand that if the augmentation gives a base boost of 300% to reaction speed, but let's see ends up giving an even larger one, they won't go "Let's change the damn label to 1400%." Why? Because that's on a person by person basis. 300% boost is guaranteed, stuff beyond isn't for everybody. Seeing as the augmentations came straight from the S2's, and it's the exact same ones, bar application methods... The fact the label says 300% based on your theory = interesting. Cause shouldn't they go "This'll give a 1400% increase in reaction speed?"

Also, those numbers are simply the labels, NOT given from post augmentation training exercises like S2s. Tell me, if drug A is used in something, then used again, are they going to mass recall and swap out the labels because the effects were greater? Not at all. They might go "You might get better effects from it." but they aren't going to change the label.


1)We have the stated 300%, and we have the known S-II reaction time boost. YOU are the one using an unknown here. YOU should be the one being the one proving that S-IIIs do indeed have the same reaction time.

2)Except your point that Master Chief saw the contact, then walked into the open. He, after covering for his teammates to advance like you said he should, proceeded with caution. When he saw the contact, he ordered his team to stop, then he was going to throw a grenade to snuff out the Brute, but it charged. Grace's death has NOTHING to do with his situational awareness. And actually, they had no choice but to enter that area. Enemies were coming en masse from where they just were, I have the quote if you want it. Actually it was the Brute struggling, John saying "oh no you don't" then pulling out the grenade. But that is not the point, AGAIN. the point is that Master Chief's weakness is not H2H. Master Chief easily out-classed that CEREMONIAL GUARD Brute in Martial art technique, his only disadvantage was being physically weaker than the Brute.

3)Yes, that person by person basis goes by genes, which is the EXACT reason that S-IIs and NOBLEs got the greater effect.

4) I never said they should change the label. The label is WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO DO. For S-II quality genes the effects are amplified. I also wouldn't doubt that they are slightly amplified for S-IIIs aswell, but not nearly as much as for the IIs. Also, what do you mean post-augmentation training. For reaction times? You can't improve it all that much, so the effect is tiny, short of getting used to the augs, but Mendez also said that they were STILL getting used to their new-found physical attributes.

  • 12.13.2011 4:57 PM PDT

"Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle."--23:5

Seriously, people? We're arguing over this? First of all, 1 vs 6 is incredibly unbalanced, so I'm not even going to go there.

1 vs 1, MC would win against Noble Six.

1 vs 1, MC would win against any Noble team member, but Kat might be a closer match.

  • 12.13.2011 5:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: Ulicies756
Seriously, people? We're arguing over this? First of all, 1 vs 6 is incredibly unbalanced, so I'm not even going to go there.

1 vs 1, MC would win against Noble Six.

1 vs 1, MC would win against any Noble team member, but Kat might be a closer match.


This IS 1v1

Reread the title.

  • 12.13.2011 5:12 PM PDT

Actually, we have any evidence the brute is anything more then a minor? I don't recall the brutes wearing any armor which they do when in a honor guard style posting. Cortana simply said they were ceremonial guards. Which could also mean they are there for show, not combat.

No, you see, I say S3's can have just as good reaction times. You however, say it's impossible or similar nonsense. Infact, haven't you outright said before that S3's ONLY get 300% boost, and they NEVER got any higher?

[Edited on 12.13.2011 5:19 PM PST]

  • 12.13.2011 5:18 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Actually, we have any evidence the brute is anything more then a minor? I don't recall the brutes wearing any armor which they do when in a honor guard style posting. Cortana simply said they were ceremonial guards. Which could also mean they are there for show, not combat.

No, you see, I say S3's can have just as good reaction times. You however, say it's impossible or similar nonsense. Infact, haven't you outright said before that S3's ONLY get 300% boost, and they NEVER got any higher?


1)When have the Covenant ever had non-highly trained guards for temples? They were armed with Brute shots and were adept enough to set up an ambush.

2)Yes, they can, IF they have the genes of a S-II candidate, like NOBLE Team. Otherwise, because there is still a selection criteria, the effects will still be amplified beyond the 300%, but not as much as the S-IIs. Your claim however, is that ALL S-IIIs got the same bonuses out of the augments as the S-IIs did. I fully acknowledge that S-IIIs like that in NOBLE Team are essentially S-IIs minus the thyroid implant, hence why they were taken out, given MJOLNIR, and being given S-II like missions. This may also be the case for S-III head hunters aswell. It may also be the case for the honors of Gamma Company.

  • 12.13.2011 5:38 PM PDT

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Posted by: hotshot revan II
@xerzaph

Unlikely to sprint?
Any healthy Human can sprint whenever he/she wants.You realise how many instances there where of Chief being able to sprint, your own example was Chief sprinting.

It was 1 in the morning when I wrote that... I think. All I'm saying is he won't be able to run at 153 km/h ever again :P

  • 12.13.2011 5:50 PM PDT

"Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle."--23:5


Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: Ulicies756
Seriously, people? We're arguing over this? First of all, 1 vs 6 is incredibly unbalanced, so I'm not even going to go there.

1 vs 1, MC would win against Noble Six.

1 vs 1, MC would win against any Noble team member, but Kat might be a closer match.


This IS 1v1

Reread the title.
At the beginning of the thread, people were comparing MC to the entire Noble team. I'm not sure if the thread has been updated, but that was part of the discussion at the beginning, which I was responding to.

  • 12.13.2011 5:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: Ulicies756

Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: Ulicies756
Seriously, people? We're arguing over this? First of all, 1 vs 6 is incredibly unbalanced, so I'm not even going to go there.

1 vs 1, MC would win against Noble Six.

1 vs 1, MC would win against any Noble team member, but Kat might be a closer match.


This IS 1v1

Reread the title.
At the beginning of the thread, people were comparing MC to the entire Noble team. I'm not sure if the thread has been updated, but that was part of the discussion at the beginning, which I was responding to.


THose people misread the title apparently, that or they were just saying that. Regardless, the title has always been the same.

  • 12.13.2011 6:00 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: st3althsniper22
Noble's Mjolnir armor is a modified version so that they can use it without being crushed under the pure weight of it. Chief's is still better and more advanced.


Proof? You have none. Noble team is wearing Mark V. if anything, the version 0.1% away from release style. Noble Team's Mark V, bar looks, IS exactly the same as Master Chief's mark V MJOLNIR.


Posted by: xecnalxes117
John would annihilate Noble Team. In his final test of the Mjolnir armor, he avoided so much gunfire & deflected a rocket. He also has Cortana on his side, who is actually very helpful. She calculates for him if needed & once saved him from a Flood parasite by using Johns own armor to electrocute it. Spartan IIs were all about stealth, if you read the books. John would win for sure if they had hand to hand combat, or in an arena/map where it was pitch black without his armor, because Spartan IIs quote: "Could practically see in the dark". -Halo: The Fall of Reach
(I remembered that last part because arguements about Spartans vs. ODSTs. Why need ODST armor when Spartan IIs could see in the dark, were hyper-lethal, & were technically, ninjas.)


John-117 bias much? Spartan III's can see just as well as Spartan II's can. They have just as good reflexes. John's weakness was hand to hand combat btw.


Halsey noticed a big difference, but regardless, it still functions the same.

Just as good of reflexes? No. As I've already demonstrated(Unless you are talking about NOBLE S-IIIs, then you would be correct). And Master Chief's weakness being H2H. Let me guess your examples.

1)Elite in TFoR
2)Sword fight in The Package
3)Elite in First Strike
4)Brute in First Strike

1)Very unvalid. That Elite was said to be like a whole meter taller then him, it was said that was his first encounter with Elites(Which has since been changed), and it took place in zero-gee, which would make it much more difficult.

2)Hmmmm, I wonder who was going to win that one. The Elite that has likely trained extensively with the energy sword, or Chief, who has no real experience with it.

3)If anything he did good. The Elite was not only high-ranking, but had an energy sword as an advantage over him.

4)Ambush, combined with first encounter with Brutes and being locked in a grapple with a significantly stronger opponent(Which is very very bad). He actually won that battle with superior H2H skills.


For number 3:

Plus Chief just got through a whole ass-load of almost non-stop fighting for several days straight, got a ton of wounds (Halsey thinks later on in First Strike when she's examining him that it's a wonder he's even still standing), lack of sleep/rest, lack of sufficient food. And the Elite had an energy sword (as you said) and the whole fight was in rather contained and close quarters. Only so much you can do when your opponent has you locked in a close-quarters battle and has a weapon built for such a scenario and can cut clean through your armor and shields with practically one blow...and you have a couple guys with you that you're trying to protect as well.

All the rest of your points are superb, I've used most of these before and pointed out these facts countless times, yet no one ever really seems to listen :/ I couldn't agree more. Chief is no stronger or weaker in H2H than all of the other SIIs (well except for the ones who specialized in it).

@DaeFaron:
Oh please, not this "rebel ambush" crap again *sigh* -.-

Kurt pointed out that something didn't feel right, and Chief listened, he told Blue Team to proceed with caution as they carried on, which they all did. And how exactly is he supposed to notice anti-grav plates (I think that's more or less what they were, IIRC) that are buried and have no indicators to tell him they're there? I really fail to see how this is supposed to be a big indication that Chief has a lack of situational awareness. >_>

@whoever said Chief was not the best leader (I think it was PredKiller)

If that were indeed the case then Chief would not have wound up as the defacto leader of the Spartans or leading the best team out of the whole lot. If it was indeed Kurt who was the better leader, then he would have been chosen as the leader of all the Spartans instead of John.

  • 12.13.2011 8:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: st3althsniper22
Noble's Mjolnir armor is a modified version so that they can use it without being crushed under the pure weight of it. Chief's is still better and more advanced.


Proof? You have none. Noble team is wearing Mark V. if anything, the version 0.1% away from release style. Noble Team's Mark V, bar looks, IS exactly the same as Master Chief's mark V MJOLNIR.


Posted by: xecnalxes117
John would annihilate Noble Team. In his final test of the Mjolnir armor, he avoided so much gunfire & deflected a rocket. He also has Cortana on his side, who is actually very helpful. She calculates for him if needed & once saved him from a Flood parasite by using Johns own armor to electrocute it. Spartan IIs were all about stealth, if you read the books. John would win for sure if they had hand to hand combat, or in an arena/map where it was pitch black without his armor, because Spartan IIs quote: "Could practically see in the dark". -Halo: The Fall of Reach
(I remembered that last part because arguements about Spartans vs. ODSTs. Why need ODST armor when Spartan IIs could see in the dark, were hyper-lethal, & were technically, ninjas.)


John-117 bias much? Spartan III's can see just as well as Spartan II's can. They have just as good reflexes. John's weakness was hand to hand combat btw.


Halsey noticed a big difference, but regardless, it still functions the same.

Just as good of reflexes? No. As I've already demonstrated(Unless you are talking about NOBLE S-IIIs, then you would be correct). And Master Chief's weakness being H2H. Let me guess your examples.

1)Elite in TFoR
2)Sword fight in The Package
3)Elite in First Strike
4)Brute in First Strike

1)Very unvalid. That Elite was said to be like a whole meter taller then him, it was said that was his first encounter with Elites(Which has since been changed), and it took place in zero-gee, which would make it much more difficult.

2)Hmmmm, I wonder who was going to win that one. The Elite that has likely trained extensively with the energy sword, or Chief, who has no real experience with it.

3)If anything he did good. The Elite was not only high-ranking, but had an energy sword as an advantage over him.

4)Ambush, combined with first encounter with Brutes and being locked in a grapple with a significantly stronger opponent(Which is very very bad). He actually won that battle with superior H2H skills.



@whoever said Chief was not the best leader (I think it was PredKiller)

If that were indeed the case then Chief would not have wound up as the defacto leader of the Spartans or leading the best team out of the whole lot. If it was indeed Kurt who was the better leader, then he would have been chosen as the leader of all the Spartans instead of John.



First off chief survived that encounter with the brute because of his shields, if he didn't have that and luck as a plotshield he would have been screwed.


I don't understand where people are getting this notion of "If you are number one you are the best" since that isn't true whatsoever. chief is a good leader but he isn't the best, the better picks normally end up being number two for strategic reasons.

  • 12.13.2011 9:13 PM PDT

Coma, I didn't mention the rebel ambush. I was talking bout the Brute one. Although I do admit it's been forever since I had the book and apparently got some details wrong.

Still wondering what spot Grace was in when she got killed... I think she was standing in the open <_<.

  • 12.13.2011 9:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I don't see why it being an "ambush" matters since they would have been overpowered regardless. Odd how spartans "Hearing a pin in a sandstorm" didn't apply then.

  • 12.13.2011 9:30 PM PDT

noble six is an action figure master chief is a beast

  • 12.13.2011 9:32 PM PDT

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Posted by: grey101
I don't understand where people are getting this notion of "If you are number one you are the best" since that isn't true whatsoever. chief is a good leader but he isn't the best, the better picks normally end up being number two for strategic reasons.


Chief is not the best Spartan, that has been said multiple times, by multiple different people. It has however been explicitly said he is the best leader.

  • 12.13.2011 11:05 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Coma, I didn't mention the rebel ambush. I was talking bout the Brute one. Although I do admit it's been forever since I had the book and apparently got some details wrong.

Still wondering what spot Grace was in when she got killed... I think she was standing in the open <_<.


Oh sorry :/ I thought I saw you mentioning the rebel incident earlier >_> Maybe it was a different thread or someone else who said it *shrug*

I'd check it for you if I had the book with me, but I'm at school right now and don't have access to it. From what I remember I think Grace was just as much cover as the rest of them, but really I'm in the same position as you, it's been too long since I read the book so I don't really remember the finer details of the run in.

  • 12.14.2011 4:57 AM PDT
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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: st3althsniper22
Noble's Mjolnir armor is a modified version so that they can use it without being crushed under the pure weight of it. Chief's is still better and more advanced.


Proof? You have none. Noble team is wearing Mark V. if anything, the version 0.1% away from release style. Noble Team's Mark V, bar looks, IS exactly the same as Master Chief's mark V MJOLNIR.


Posted by: xecnalxes117
John would annihilate Noble Team. In his final test of the Mjolnir armor, he avoided so much gunfire & deflected a rocket. He also has Cortana on his side, who is actually very helpful. She calculates for him if needed & once saved him from a Flood parasite by using Johns own armor to electrocute it. Spartan IIs were all about stealth, if you read the books. John would win for sure if they had hand to hand combat, or in an arena/map where it was pitch black without his armor, because Spartan IIs quote: "Could practically see in the dark". -Halo: The Fall of Reach
(I remembered that last part because arguements about Spartans vs. ODSTs. Why need ODST armor when Spartan IIs could see in the dark, were hyper-lethal, & were technically, ninjas.)


John-117 bias much? Spartan III's can see just as well as Spartan II's can. They have just as good reflexes. John's weakness was hand to hand combat btw.


Halsey noticed a big difference, but regardless, it still functions the same.

Just as good of reflexes? No. As I've already demonstrated(Unless you are talking about NOBLE S-IIIs, then you would be correct). And Master Chief's weakness being H2H. Let me guess your examples.

1)Elite in TFoR
2)Sword fight in The Package
3)Elite in First Strike
4)Brute in First Strike

1)Very unvalid. That Elite was said to be like a whole meter taller then him, it was said that was his first encounter with Elites(Which has since been changed), and it took place in zero-gee, which would make it much more difficult.

2)Hmmmm, I wonder who was going to win that one. The Elite that has likely trained extensively with the energy sword, or Chief, who has no real experience with it.

3)If anything he did good. The Elite was not only high-ranking, but had an energy sword as an advantage over him.

4)Ambush, combined with first encounter with Brutes and being locked in a grapple with a significantly stronger opponent(Which is very very bad). He actually won that battle with superior H2H skills.



@whoever said Chief was not the best leader (I think it was PredKiller)

If that were indeed the case then Chief would not have wound up as the defacto leader of the Spartans or leading the best team out of the whole lot. If it was indeed Kurt who was the better leader, then he would have been chosen as the leader of all the Spartans instead of John.



First off chief survived that encounter with the brute because of his shields, if he didn't have that and luck as a plotshield he would have been screwed.


I don't understand where people are getting this notion of "If you are number one you are the best" since that isn't true whatsoever. chief is a good leader but he isn't the best, the better picks normally end up being number two for strategic reasons.


Luck had nothing to do with the Brute part. Did you not read the part about endless hours on the mats training H2H? He was TRAINED and SKILLED enough to pull of that manuever, nothing to do with luck. Hell, the move even has a name, "shrimping." And yes, he survived because of the shield, but then again, any other S-II in that situation would've died without the shield, because NONE are as strong as a Brute, let alone strong enough to muscle their way out of a death grip.

  • 12.14.2011 3:39 PM PDT
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In terms of where Grace was positioned.

Halo: First Strike pg 310

John took point. He moved up to the next column in the middle of the building. Fred and Will stepped over the columns on either side behind John. Grace had thier backs.
/quote

So, question, how is Master chief to blame for Grace's death? And just a side note, Master Chief saved the rest of Blue Team by throwing an anti-tank mine and killing the Brutes. So he not only killed the one that attacked him, but he killed the others aswell. Where was the rest of Blue Team to help him on that one? He also chose not to give the order to run, because he wanted to find out if Grace was still alive.

  • 12.14.2011 3:51 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

how about you start filling your posts with more relevant information? It was luck seeing how his survival in that situation was based of his shields.

No armor- he would have died

Mark IV- would have died

The only reason he lived is because he had an ounce of shield strength left, even then he still would have died if he didn't have that grenade.

Which is why i said,luck. You know i understand the lore so next time don't waste characters explaining a situation i already know.

  • 12.14.2011 3:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101
how about you start filling your posts with more relevant information? It was luck seeing how his survival in that situation was based of his shields.

No armor- he would have died

Mark IV- would have died

The only reason he lived is because he had an ounce of shield strength left, even then he still would have died if he didn't have that grenade.

Which is why i said,luck. You know i understand the lore so next time don't waste characters explaining a situation i already know.


If you bring gear to a fight, that suddenly counts as luck? But still, you are missing my point. Everyone says Master Chief's weakness is H2H, and they bring up the Brute. Then I show, via the quote, that Master Chief beat the Brute using H2H skills developed after intense training, and what do you do? Blame it on his armor and luck. Armor, yes. Luck, no. ANY S-II without MJOLNIR would've died there, but apparently that just somehow makes MC suck at H2H right? Not to mention all the other examples are equal in the Bull-blam!- department(And he won in all but one of those H2H engagements to, when he was at a disadvantage).

So again, my point is that Master Chief does not suck at H2H, and is only out-classed by those who are specialists in that department. BTW, Fred is NOT a H2H specialist, unless you have a quote to back it up. Weilding knives in The Package does not mean "omfg! Fred is a Knife specialist!"

  • 12.14.2011 4:21 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Please



Let this thread die. It died a long time ago.

  • 12.14.2011 4:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: grey101
how about you start filling your posts with more relevant information? It was luck seeing how his survival in that situation was based of his shields.

No armor- he would have died

Mark IV- would have died

The only reason he lived is because he had an ounce of shield strength left, even then he still would have died if he didn't have that grenade.

Which is why i said,luck. You know i understand the lore so next time don't waste characters explaining a situation i already know.


So again, my point is that Master Chief does not suck at H2H,


Again with the irrelevant info?

I never said he sucked at hand to Hand but he won that encounter by luck. As i have said if he didn't have the amount of shields that he did and if he didn't have that grenade he would have died. Please read before posting a wall of text that isn't relevant whatsoever.

i am sure it was stated that fred was known for his actions with knives.I do remember him picking them for ops and even playing with the in the PoA. It has been accepted for about a decade that Fred=knives

  • 12.14.2011 4:31 PM PDT
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The only example of Fred with knives are when he played with one on the PoA and The Package. It never said that HE specifically was known for his actions. Exact quote being:

Halo: Fisrt Strike pg 2

--a SPARTAN weilding a knife was generally accompanied by the presence of several dead bodies.
/quote

ALL SPARTANs have trained extensively with the knife, you also do not just simply have a "knife specialist." You have H2H specialists, which in this case, are Kelly and Will. There is NO proof of Fred being a knife specialist, and actually, I have a quote saying quite the opposite.

Halo: First Strike pg 158

"Because you're our second-best shot," John told him. "And our best spotter. Our plan hinges on the sniper team. Now just do it."
"Yes, sir," Fred muttered. He nodded and whispered: "Best spotter? Cool."
/quote

And if S-IIs are trained to become specialists in their natural skills.........

  • 12.14.2011 4:56 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal
In terms of where Grace was positioned.

Halo: First Strike pg 310

John took point. He moved up to the next column in the middle of the building. Fred and Will stepped over the columns on either side behind John. Grace had thier backs.
/quote

So, question, how is Master chief to blame for Grace's death? And just a side note, Master Chief saved the rest of Blue Team by throwing an anti-tank mine and killing the Brutes. So he not only killed the one that attacked him, but he killed the others aswell. Where was the rest of Blue Team to help him on that one? He also chose not to give the order to run, because he wanted to find out if Grace was still alive.


Um, congrats on not answering the question of Grace's location. At all.

How about you direct quote when the brute shot was fired, when she died, and where they found the corpse?

Your quote says nothing of where she was positioned, other then watching behind them.

  • 12.14.2011 4:57 PM PDT
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"It has been accepted for about a decade that Fred=knives"

Argumentum ad antiquitatem

Otherwise known as Argument to Antiquity/Tradition, a common Logical Fallacy.

  • 12.14.2011 5:01 PM PDT
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Well, when the action started, the 3 booms that killed Grace came from behind everyone, sooooooooooo...........

If you want the quote I will give it.

  • 12.14.2011 5:02 PM PDT