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This topic has moved here: Subject: Master Chief vs. Noble Six
  • Subject: Master Chief vs. Noble Six
Subject: Master Chief vs. Noble Six
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: superiorarsenal
"It has been accepted for about a decade that Fred=knives"

Argumentum ad antiquitatem

Otherwise known as Argument to Antiquity/Tradition, a common Logical Fallacy.


You do know that Anton is the only one that is good at pointing out fallacy's since he was the first to ever do so here. Don't point out fallacy's in others if you aren't even aware of your own.

  • 12.14.2011 5:17 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal
Well, when the action started, the 3 booms that killed Grace came from behind everyone, sooooooooooo...........

If you want the quote I will give it.


That is what I've been asking for the past long while.

The quote of that scene, before, including, and after grace's death.

+ anything that would indicate her location at time of death.

  • 12.14.2011 5:23 PM PDT

Master chief, Hands down.

  • 12.14.2011 5:27 PM PDT

Hello! You may also know me as Ijnekono. How you have made your way here I do not know, but welcome. (:

Master Chief has luck. You can't beat him!

  • 12.14.2011 5:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: superiorarsenal
"It has been accepted for about a decade that Fred=knives"

Argumentum ad antiquitatem

Otherwise known as Argument to Antiquity/Tradition, a common Logical Fallacy.


So I can't point out Fallacies that I know and understand because I wasn't the first to do so?

Oh, and here is Grace's position.

Halo: First Strike pg 310

Three explosions detonated behind them. Grace's biosign alarm shrilled and flashed on John's heads-up display.
/quote

So, like I said, she was behind them. FAR from your original of Master Chief seeing the contacts on the sensor, then just ordering his team forward getting Grace killed. Not to mention Chief acted EXACTLY like you wanted/said he should act in that scenario.

You do know that Anton is the only one that is good at pointing out fallacy's since he was the first to ever do so here. Don't point out fallacy's in others if you aren't even aware of your own.


So I can't point out Fallacies that I know and understand because I wasn't the first to do so?

Oh, and here is Grace's position.

Halo: First Strike pg 310

Three explosions detonated behind them. Grace's biosign alarm shrilled and flashed on John's heads-up display.
/quote

So, like I said, she was behind them. FAR from your original of Master Chief seeing the contacts on the sensor, then just ordering his team forward getting Grace killed. Not to mention Chief acted EXACTLY like you wanted/said he should act in that scenario.



[Edited on 12.14.2011 5:34 PM PST]

  • 12.14.2011 5:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: superiorarsenal
"It has been accepted for about a decade that Fred=knives"

Argumentum ad antiquitatem

Otherwise known as Argument to Antiquity/Tradition, a common Logical Fallacy.


You do know that Anton is the only one that is good at pointing out fallacy's since he was the first to ever do so here. Don't point out fallacy's in others if you aren't even aware of your own.


Tu quoque

Just because I have sometimes preformed Logical Fallacies does not justify the fact that you just did.

  • 12.14.2011 5:43 PM PDT

Once again, you fail to provide Grace's location bar "behind chief." She could literally be right behind Chief, standing in the open behind him, or with back to a pillar watching the door. You are not providing evidence for any of these.

I don't have the book with me, and I think I made it clear as heck what I wanted with my last post, but you don't understand or choose not to deliver :/.

[Edited on 12.14.2011 6:20 PM PST]

  • 12.14.2011 6:18 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Once again, you fail to provide Grace's location bar "behind chief." She could literally be right behind Chief, standing in the open behind him, or with back to a pillar watching the door. You are not providing evidence for any of these.

I don't have the book with me, and I think I made it clear as heck what I wanted with my last post, but you don't understand or choose not to deliver :/.


I just checked it, doesn't get any more specific than what Arsenal listed. All it basically says is that Grace was at the back of the group when the Brutes attacked and nothing more :/

  • 12.14.2011 6:40 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Once again, you fail to provide Grace's location bar "behind chief." She could literally be right behind Chief, standing in the open behind him, or with back to a pillar watching the door. You are not providing evidence for any of these.

I don't have the book with me, and I think I made it clear as heck what I wanted with my last post, but you don't understand or choose not to deliver :/.


I just checked it, doesn't get any more specific than what Arsenal listed. All it basically says is that Grace was at the back of the group when the Brutes attacked and nothing more :/


Okay, thanks for checking at least. I remembered something about how she was roughly in the middle of the doorway or something.

At least you said that was nearly all that was to the scene +_+.

  • 12.14.2011 6:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Once again, you fail to provide Grace's location bar "behind chief." She could literally be right behind Chief, standing in the open behind him, or with back to a pillar watching the door. You are not providing evidence for any of these.

I don't have the book with me, and I think I made it clear as heck what I wanted with my last post, but you don't understand or choose not to deliver :/.


I just checked it, doesn't get any more specific than what Arsenal listed. All it basically says is that Grace was at the back of the group when the Brutes attacked and nothing more :/


Okay, thanks for checking at least. I remembered something about how she was roughly in the middle of the doorway or something.

At least you said that was nearly all that was to the scene +_+.


Thanks for checking? I GAVE you the scene. ugh

Also, maybe I should highlight this part of the quote that I just posted.

Halo: First Strike pg 310

Three explosions detonated behind THEM. Grace's biosign alarm shrilled and flashed on John's heads-up display.
/quote

THEM being Master Chief, Fred, and Will. What are you not understanding? THEM, being plural, most definately does not mean only behind Chief. You put out what you remembered (Which was wrong), while I was quoting the book directly, yet you claim that I was not providing proof? I'm really getting sick of this, I mean honestly.

Also, what does her location matter? I am fighting your claims (A) Master Chief has a knack for getting teammates killed (B) Master Chief's weakness is H2H and (C) master Chief has a lack of situational awareness.
(A) Grace's death has nothing to do with Master Chief getting her killed. He proceeded with caution, actually, almost in the exact manner that you said would've saved her life. It was rather that she was behind them, and the Brutes preforming the ambush shot her first. EXPLAIN to me how this is Master Chief's fault.
(B)All the examples commonly used, bar one, Master Chief won against long odds. If anything, those examples show that he has plenty of H2H skills.
(C)He saw that it would be a good place for an ambush, proceeded with great caution (Also with no choice, as Covenant were closing in behind him, i have the quote if you want it), and when he did see the contact on his motion sensor, he ordered his team to halt, and was going to use a frag to flush out the ambush, until he was bum-rushed by the Brute. EXPLAIN to me how this is a lack of situational awareness.

[Edited on 12.14.2011 7:54 PM PST]

  • 12.14.2011 7:44 PM PDT

Da snipe
____________(˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜˜)_∏______
l | --------____.`=====.-.~:________\___|=================[oo]
|_|||___/ /_/~```|_|_|_|``

Master chief is da boss

  • 12.14.2011 8:03 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

For the most part folks, I think we can agree the two are fairly equal. I will grant Chief an advantage in terms of the thyroid implant making him taller a tough bigger, but I have to give Six an advantage for her ability to act independently and without a squad. Chief may have adapted to a solo role, but Six was probably acting by herself much earlier and longer than him.

Where is Deadliest Warrior when you need it?

  • 12.14.2011 8:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
For the most part folks, I think we can agree the two are fairly equal. I will grant Chief an advantage in terms of the thyroid implant making him taller a tough bigger, but I have to give Six an advantage for her ability to act independently and without a squad. Chief may have adapted to a solo role, but Six was probably acting by herself much earlier and longer than him.

Where is Deadliest Warrior when you need it?


1)In a 1v1 scenario, it wouldn't matter whether he used to have a squad or not. Maybe if it was 1v2 or greater, but 1v1 is just each combatants skills against one another, not something that requires squad support.

2)Deadliest warrior is horribly unscientific.

  • 12.14.2011 8:21 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: superiorarsenal
1)In a 1v1 scenario, it wouldn't matter whether he used to have a squad or not. Maybe if it was 1v2 or greater, but 1v1 is just each combatants skills against one another, not something that requires squad support.

2)Deadliest warrior is horribly unscientific.


1. It is still something to consider. If you are trained from the beginning to work in a squad, but it is removed from you, you're combat effectiveness may suffer. Six probably went through it from her transition from standard S-III to Ackerson's (<conjecture) personal grim reaper. However, she would be more used to it than Chief.

2. It is, but it lays out some great ground rules and if we had some hard data, I'd love to have the sim they use.

  • 12.14.2011 8:29 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Noble six really shouldn't be talked about seriously since we know absolutely nothing about him.

  • 12.14.2011 8:29 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: grey101
Noble six really shouldn't be talked about seriously since we know absolutely nothing about him.


Hence why I'd like a book, but NOOOOOOOOOO to some of ya'll.

  • 12.14.2011 8:31 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: grey101
Noble six really shouldn't be talked about seriously since we know absolutely nothing about him.


Hence why I'd like a book, but NOOOOOOOOOO to some of ya'll.


I actually prefer Six not really having a real backstory because I like being able to make up whatever I want for the character :P The rest of Noble on the other hand, I'd love a book dealing with their beginnings and what not.

  • 12.14.2011 9:36 PM PDT

Arsenal, I asked if there was mention about SPECIFICALLY were Grace was.

You provided "behind them" Nothing else. Partly so my memory is clear, partly to see if Chief let his teammate stand in the open. However you danced around it constantly. You see, I wanted to know if she had been in cover or was in the open. You simply refused to straight up quote or answer with ANYTHING that'd solve that question. I still am pretty sure when Chief goes back to her corpse, she's actually in the open and not close to cover. Might not detract from him but it's still something I would love to have clear for memory. Though my method wouldn't exactly have gotten her killed, as they'd be in cover in a way that the brutes couldn't get behind him.

I also never said Chief had no H2H skill. Just said it wasn't his strong point.


So to be clear, I'm going off memory, I asked for something, you danced around it and gave parts of the information, and not the entire bloody thing. Coma informed me there wasn't much more information, I thank her because she told me that as opposed to you who did not, and you get pissed at me? I asked for before (which you gave) during (which you gave... after a while), and after/when they checked the corpse (which you... did not give at all). I was asking for all possible data to determine Grace's location at time of death and all you give was "Behind them."

On topic, The subject of chief being in a team is actually a point. 1 vs 1, we have A (six): operating in his/her preferred zone, where they work best. and we have B (chief): operating OUTSIDE his preferred zone, where his strongest points (leadership) are useless and he must rely on himself.

Six has a clear advantage in this area.

  • 12.14.2011 9:45 PM PDT

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Why has this turned into a "Master Chief is a terrible spartan" thread? And don't contradict me, if everything that has been said is to be taken as fact, he's a bad leader, has terrible situational awareness and hand-to-hand skills.... Seriously... What the -blam!- people?

  • 12.14.2011 10:49 PM PDT


Posted by: Xerzaph
Why has this turned into a "Master Chief is a terrible spartan" thread? And don't contradict me, if everything that has been said is to be taken as fact, he's a bad leader, has terrible situational awareness and hand-to-hand skills.... Seriously... What the -blam!- people?


I'm of the viewpoint he's not a perfect spartan. He's among the best, but IMO he is not THE best.

  • 12.14.2011 11:06 PM PDT

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I'm of the viewpoint he's not a perfect spartan. He's among the best, but IMO he is not THE best.

No, of course not, that's one of the more common aspects of MC canon.

[Edited on 12.14.2011 11:38 PM PST]

  • 12.14.2011 11:38 PM PDT

In the fell clutch of circumstance, I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance, my head is bloody but unbowed. - From Invictus

Noble Six would kick his Ass

  • 12.15.2011 4:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: superiorarsenal
1)In a 1v1 scenario, it wouldn't matter whether he used to have a squad or not. Maybe if it was 1v2 or greater, but 1v1 is just each combatants skills against one another, not something that requires squad support.

2)Deadliest warrior is horribly unscientific.


1. It is still something to consider. If you are trained from the beginning to work in a squad, but it is removed from you, you're combat effectiveness may suffer. Six probably went through it from her transition from standard S-III to Ackerson's (<conjecture) personal grim reaper. However, she would be more used to it than Chief.

2. It is, but it lays out some great ground rules and if we had some hard data, I'd love to have the sim they use.


1) What I meant is that Master Chief's squad training doesn't really account for anything. If he is only fighting 1 enemy, he can put all his focus on that. The squad comes in when there are multiple enemies and he is used to having someone watching his back.

2)That program would be wonderful, though it would need some tweaking.

  • 12.15.2011 6:03 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101
Noble six really shouldn't be talked about seriously since we know absolutely nothing about him.


^^^^^^ This

  • 12.15.2011 6:04 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: superiorarsenal
1)In a 1v1 scenario, it wouldn't matter whether he used to have a squad or not. Maybe if it was 1v2 or greater, but 1v1 is just each combatants skills against one another, not something that requires squad support.

2)Deadliest warrior is horribly unscientific.


1. It is still something to consider. If you are trained from the beginning to work in a squad, but it is removed from you, you're combat effectiveness may suffer. Six probably went through it from her transition from standard S-III to Ackerson's (<conjecture) personal grim reaper. However, she would be more used to it than Chief.

2. It is, but it lays out some great ground rules and if we had some hard data, I'd love to have the sim they use.


1) What I meant is that Master Chief's squad training doesn't really account for anything. If he is only fighting 1 enemy, he can put all his focus on that. The squad comes in when there are multiple enemies and he is used to having someone watching his back.

2)That program would be wonderful, though it would need some tweaking.



All fair points. However, besides the thyroid implant, what other advantage does Chief have? Not much.

Chief was trained to fight the Insurrectionists and had to learn on the job hwo to fight the Covenant.

Six was taught both.

Chief was trained by Mendez and underwent very tough training. I'd wager Six, who was also taught by Mendez AND a Spartan-II, went though more streamlined training.

When it comes to the amount of years, Chief does have an edge. That said, if we have a 20 year Green Beret vet go against a 40 year Green Beret vet. does that mean the 40 year vet will win? Fairly bad example, but you get the point.

  • 12.15.2011 6:18 PM PDT