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Subject: Why does Thel 'Vadam not kill Johnson and Keyes...

Um, 343 outright called Miranda Keyes a reclaimer directly infront of Thel.

That and if he TRULY hated humans so much at that point, he wouldn't even work alongside Johnson. He would've killed him.

  • 09.22.2011 10:48 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Sniffy66
Posted by: anton1792
To him, he should still view humans with bitter contempt and as heretics accursed by his "gods" who are destroying Forerunner artifacts.
Wait... why does he still think the Forerunners as gods still?

Perhaps you should ask Frank O'Conner/Karen Traviss. They started Glasslands with a conspiracy to kill Thel made by Sangheili that still believe. Enough still believe to shatter the Sangheili apparently. If abandoning their faith was as easy as that, then why all this nonsense? And what makes Thel so special? We do not see any changes in his attitude towards Humans at all except for when it is convenient at the end of the game. Anything you say about Thel, such as feelings and intentions, are done to justify his actions at that point, not the other way around where his feelings and intentions are known which then leads to his actions. It was a poorly developed plot at that point. He just suddenly turns 180* in a matter of minutes.

Humans have not really been cleared of the charge of destroying Forerunner artifacts, of which their sacredness is not negated by the Great Journey being proven false, not by the Forerunner's deaths. The only way that could be overturned is really if A) They consider that Truth lied, B) It is made known that Humanity are the Reclaimers. He doesn't know Humans are Reclaimers yet, and he has proof of Humanity destroying Forerunner technology with the destruction of Alpha Halo.

If he no longer views Forerunner technology as holy, then fair enough he might not kill them, but he sure as hell is not going to even speak to them let alone engage in alliances. Here is what Thel still thinks of Humans in 2552. This is from the Covenant game manual of Halo 2:

The human in question is certainly unusual, although not the creature he has been described as. It stands taller than most, is faster and more aggressive, but still irrevocably a Human animal, worthy of neither fear not respect. It is merely an exception that proves the rule. As always, Humans remain beneath our contempt.
Sangheili do not only dislike Humans due to their dogma, they dislike them because they find them cowardly and dishonorable. The thing that makes all these "arguments" trying to justify the Elites in their actions, and to make them "Humanitys future friends" or whatever all have the same problem: They try to justify actions by stating possible feelings and intent favorable to their position, rather than justifying intent and feelings with definite actions. In other words you start with something you want to believe and then look for evidence, not from what you do know and then fitting the most likely situation onto that. They are all contrived and superfluous. Occam's Razor anyone?

And to those people saying Humans would be a valuable ally, just stop. It is made pretty clear by Ghosts of Onyx and the Encyclopedia that this is not the case. They didn't even consider Humanity as allys or innocent in all things until most of their own fleets were eradicated.

Um, 343 outright called Miranda Keyes a reclaimer directly infront of Thel.
Where?

  • 09.22.2011 12:00 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Poy Poy
So, you want to kill the only species capable of stopping the prophets plan to activate the Halo array?

He doesn't know that just yet. He doesn't know anything about the Humans, other than what he has been told all his life.


And then we come to the point that I was fully anticipating.

"The Sangheili respect Humans"

That is nothing more than fan made wishful thinking. There is no more evidence in support of that than there is for the myth that the UNSC won most ground battles against the Covenant.

I see no reason why Thel should not have opened fire. With the way that the Sangheili actually view Humanity, for them at that point to accept the help of Humanity or to ask for it would be like Spartan-IIs seriously considering the aid of Grunts in a battle.

SPARTAN-IIs would consider the aid of grunts in battle, I think.

  • 09.22.2011 12:45 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

I think it was a case of "The enemies of my enemy is my friends". The Brutes and Prophets had just betrayed the Elites and Thel would understandably be furious at them. Perhaps he considered letting them live for a while so that the Brutes could not focus solely on the Elites or Humans. I think it was a spur-of-the-moment alliance (temporary) that evolved into a more permanent alliance off-screen.

  • 09.22.2011 12:50 PM PDT

"Please use caution! This reclaimer is delicate."

Spark said that pretty much as Thel walked in.

Edit: What elites considered humans to be dishonorable and cowardly bar the SUPER zealous like Ripa and such?

[Edited on 09.22.2011 2:08 PM PDT]

  • 09.22.2011 2:01 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Thel was not stupid. Even then, after learning the truth about the humans and their link to the Forerunners, Thel respected the humans and saw their initiative and capabilities.

He knew the Elite's would need the humans help in the coming years to help rebuild and help fight against the agonizing Brute forces.

  • 09.22.2011 2:30 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
"Please use caution! This reclaimer is delicate."

Spark said that pretty much as Thel walked in.

But how does he know what a Reclaimer refers to? He has never heard it before now. This might be the first time he hears of the term, but he can't see what is going on and who is being spoken to etc.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Edit: What elites considered humans to be dishonorable and cowardly bar the SUPER zealous like Ripa and such?

You can't shrug off these notions as being super-zealous, because they are pretty standard among them and in line with their beliefs. So that means that they are all super-zealous then. Either way it makes no difference. That list of mines a few days ago in that other thread are the ones who consider Humans to be pretty lowly, and they outnumber those who don't by 3 or 4 times.

  • 09.22.2011 3:01 PM PDT

But you can't state these notions as standard for all Elites either... I would hardly call Ripa, or the Supreme commander in Ghosts of Onyx typical elite mindset.

Edit: Was reclaimer not the term they used for the Covenant? Reclaiming the forerunner's legacy and tech?

[Edited on 09.22.2011 3:06 PM PDT]

  • 09.22.2011 3:03 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
But you can't state these notions as standard for all Elites either... I would hardly call Ripa, or the Supreme commander in Ghosts of Onyx typical elite mindset.

They share the same mindset towards Humanity if nothing else as nearly all of the named Elites that have been developed beyond a single line of text. It might not be a nice pill to swallow, but the implications are clear: Most Elites that we have seen act like Ripa towards Humans, because out of the Elites that we read about, most of them do this. Their religion decrees it as well so we can probably expect most to believe it in addition to what we already see. So there really is very, very little going for the positive notions at large.

List

Some of those Elites are no where near as insane as Ripa actually, but still view Humanity very negatively. For example, Thon did not care very much for the Covenant Theology, he was a soldier who was only concerned about fighting the war and he still viewed Humans as barbarians and such.

The simplest conclusion is this: We read about Sangheili in the novels and see their PoV's. Most of these are negative. We also see that the Covenant religion actively promotes hatred of Humanity. Therefore most Elites will despise Humans. The other conclusion from this, the positive one, is:

"We read about Sangheili in the novels and see their PoV's. Most of these are negative. We also see that the Covenant religion actively promotes hatred of Humanity. Therefore, most Sangheili respect Humans."

It is not very logical and needs other stuff in order to be true - like a canon source actually saying that most do. Anything else would be an unproven assumption. Occam's Razor doesn't like unnecessary unproven assumptions.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Edit: Was reclaimer not the term they used for the Covenant? Reclaiming the forerunner's legacy and tech?

It was Reclamation. Truth hid the true meaning -Reclaimer- from the rest of the Covenant.

  • 09.22.2011 4:47 PM PDT

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

If you're interested in Halo's music, check this out.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Speaking of chuckles, let's all lol at IonicPaul, who makes friends with bugs to make up for his lack of human contact.

I love how this whole thread is everyone telling the OP he's wrong and him vehemently disagreeing so that he can...

...Wait, there isn't a point to this thread.

  • 09.22.2011 4:54 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

Anton! Stop!
The arbiter was betrayed by the brutes and learned that the prophets told them to exterminate the brutes and the council. He was face to face with gravemind and saw his warriors get killed. He was made arbiter and also got help from the humans and all that with guilty spark.

I don't think the Arbiter is "dumb" either or slow at adapting.

  • 09.22.2011 5:18 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: IonicPaul
I love how this whole thread is everyone telling the OP he's wrong and him vehemently disagreeing so that he can...

...Wait, there isn't a point to this thread.

You can apply that to any thread in this forum such as this, this, this or this where the OP makes a statement, someone can disagree and then the OP can respond, so leave the angst at the door please.

vehemently
lol

  • 09.22.2011 6:27 PM PDT

"We read about Sangheili in the novels and see their PoV's. Most of these are negative. We also see that the Covenant religion actively promotes hatred of Humanity. Therefore, most Sangheili respect Humans."

How about "We read about sangheili in the novels and see their PoV's. Their culture shows respect for those that can impress them in battle. Therefore, while a chunk might dislike humans, there would be a number which respected them."

Also, why would Thel turn around and kill Johnson and Keyes after the battle? The Elite culture has never struck me as the type that'd go "Okay, we are enemies but paired up to defeat a common foe. That foe is dead so I'm just going to kill you now."

  • 09.22.2011 6:28 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
How about "We read about sangheili in the novels and see their PoV's. Their culture shows respect for those that can impress them in battle. Therefore, while a chunk might dislike humans, there would be a number which respected them."

But did we impress them in battle?

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Also, why would Thel turn around and kill Johnson and Keyes after the battle? The Elite culture has never struck me as the type that'd go "Okay, we are enemies but paired up to defeat a common foe. That foe is dead so I'm just going to kill you now."

Meet Thon 'Talamee. (Paragraph 3 of the Line Installation 1-4 section specifically)

  • 09.22.2011 6:43 PM PDT

"Halo! Its divine wind will rush through the stars, propelling all who are worthy along the path to salvation."

So ...Halo 2's ending is dumb?

  • 09.22.2011 6:45 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
How about "We read about sangheili in the novels and see their PoV's. Their culture shows respect for those that can impress them in battle. Therefore, while a chunk might dislike humans, there would be a number which respected them."

But did we impress them in battle?

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Also, why would Thel turn around and kill Johnson and Keyes after the battle? The Elite culture has never struck me as the type that'd go "Okay, we are enemies but paired up to defeat a common foe. That foe is dead so I'm just going to kill you now."

Meet Thon 'Talamee. (Paragraph 3 of the Line Installation 1-4 section specifically)


You know by now that the way Bungie writes their story compared to others is a bit different.
What you presented is a biased piece of evidence since it was not written by the writer of Halo 2.

The rules and fiction of Halo is so skewed because of all of these author's different perceptions of it. The thing is, said views are barely that different from each other, but when a topic like the one Anton is presenting is brought up, those smalls inconsistencies flare big debates.

[Edited on 09.22.2011 6:55 PM PDT]

  • 09.22.2011 6:54 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Ruby of the Blue
Are you BlueRuby?

And yes, I will leave it at different authors screwing the Sangheili up and will leave it at that.

  • 09.22.2011 7:10 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
If abandoning their faith was as easy as that, then why all this nonsense? And what makes Thel so special? We do not see any changes in his attitude towards Humans at all except for when it is convenient at the end of the game. Anything you say about Thel, such as feelings and intentions, are done to justify his actions at that point, not the other way around where his feelings and intentions are known which then leads to his actions. It was a poorly developed plot at that point. He just suddenly turns 180* in a matter of minutes.

It's not so much a 180 as it is a lack of opportunity for him to express himself; there's really not much to go on. Judging by how he was animated, though, I got the sense that he started connecting the dots (of which there where many in the game up to that point) in the Gravemind opening cutscene.
"THOSE WHO BUILT THIS PLACE KNEW WHAT THEY WROUGHT. DO NOT MISTAKE THEIR INTENT, OR ALL WILL PERISH AS THEY DID BEFORE."

In any case, the reason his case might be different from some other elites is that he was at the center of it all. You can't say "some elites stuck with the old belief system" and then assume that all would naturally think the same way, particularly if some of them were an object at the epicenter of the schism.

Humans have not really been cleared of the charge of destroying Forerunner artifacts, of which their sacredness is not negated by the Great Journey being proven false, not by the Forerunner's deaths. The only way that could be overturned is really if A) They consider that Truth lied, B) It is made known that Humanity are the Reclaimers. He doesn't know Humans are Reclaimers yet, and he has proof of Humanity destroying Forerunner technology with the destruction of Alpha Halo.
First off, the "Forerunners are Gods and their relics must be protected" attitude arguably would be tarnished pretty badly if it was learned that their greatest relics were actually depressing monuments to the complete failure of a protector civilization.

Anyway, though, by the ending cutscene of Halo 2, Arby most definitely knows that the humans are reclaimers. He may very well have heard the "this reclaimer is delicate" line on the way in, and during the Tartarsauce battle we get the "Under more controlled circumstances, I would suggest the Reclaimer simply remove the Index" lines.

//========

And on top of all this stuff, Arby is also, at this point, at the vanguard of a furious revenge act against the group that made humans out to be icky defiling creatures in the first place. Maybe he trusts their word less at this point?

  • 09.22.2011 9:19 PM PDT

I'd also have to say... given Elite and Prophets had completely opposite views on Forerunner items... Would the original Elite belief actually have a major following by the time of the halo trilogy?

  • 09.22.2011 9:32 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I'd also have to say... given Elite and Prophets had completely opposite views on Forerunner items... Would the original Elite belief actually have a major following by the time of the halo trilogy?
I doubt it. The Prophets have been in power far too long for any pre covie elite views on the forerunner artifacts to remain relevant.

  • 09.22.2011 9:42 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

I don't know about the Sangheili who still believe in the old faith. Supposedly the faction that 'Telcam leads, the one conspiring against Thel and his followers, is of that old faith.

Link. It comes from Glasslands Chapter One apparently, and Matman on this forum (Under the name of Xzan 'Tamasee on there) is the one who changed the article to what it reads now, so I don't know for sure.

As for everything else in this thread - about Thel really transforming in time for the fight in the control room, Sangheili respecting Humans and the Sangheili's profound sense of honor and Rectitude- it all might be true but it just appears to me that multiple writers coming in with unchecked viewpoints have butchered them beyond something coherent and meaningful. Personally, the evidence is all too weak for me to take it anywhere.

  • 09.22.2011 10:09 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
As for everything else in this thread - about Thel really transforming in time for the fight in the control room, Sangheili respecting Humans and the Sangheili's profound sense of honor and Rectitude- it all might be true but it just appears to me that multiple writers coming in with unchecked viewpoints have butchered them beyond something coherent and meaningful. Personally, the evidence is all too weak for me to take it anywhere.

Possibly. I wouldn't know, as I haven't really done much exploring of the larger canon. But it seems that Halo 2 makes perfect internal sense with respect to the stuff you brought up, even if I don't find Arby's progression as interesting as a lot of people do.

[Edited on 09.22.2011 11:21 PM PDT]

  • 09.22.2011 11:20 PM PDT

I am open to doing free clan tags for anyone. Contact me on my deviant art profile through a note and NOT on my comments page as they will not be acknowledged.

Click on the "My Homepage" button to be directed to my page.

Johnson wasn't about to let him kill him...yeah.

  • 09.22.2011 11:47 PM PDT

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

If you're interested in Halo's music, check this out.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Speaking of chuckles, let's all lol at IonicPaul, who makes friends with bugs to make up for his lack of human contact.

Posted by: anton1792
[You can apply that to any thread in this forum such as this, this, this or this where the OP makes a statement, someone can disagree and then the OP can respond, so leave the angst at the door please.
It's not angst. I'm just laughing at a thread where you ignore what everyone else tells you and just repeat the same things. It feels like a political thread, which goes nowhere.
Posted by: anton1792
vehemently
lol
Oh no I used a word.

  • 09.23.2011 12:43 AM PDT


Posted by: SHAOLINMONKEY 93
Johnson wasn't about to let him kill him...yeah.


Dat Particle Beam Rifle.

  • 09.23.2011 5:30 AM PDT

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