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Subject: Why does Thel 'Vadam not kill Johnson and Keyes...

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: IonicPaul
It's not angst. I'm just laughing at a thread where you ignore what everyone else tells you and just repeat the same things. It feels like a political thread, which goes nowhere.

Examples of "ignore what everyone else tells you and just repeat the same things"?

I think Caboose needs your services in the Reach Canon thread. That one has went through at least twenty cycles by now of repeating the same things. Maybe you could enlighten them with your self-righteous preaching too?

Posted by: IonicPaul
Posted by: anton1792
vehemently
lol
Oh no I used a word.

It implies that I am mad over this, which you can't really know. I am not vehemently responding. This is, at best, a tertiary interest of mines right now. If you read it in a vehement manner then too bad, not my problem.

  • 09.23.2011 9:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: chotato
smart, interesting, seems out of place.


Official fan of Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, (Problem with that?) Halo, and Bungie, also a total gaming junkie.

Well the Gravemind and 343 told him that the Covenant's religion was a load of BS, so what else would he do? Try to kill the only species that would help them stop the Covenant?

  • 09.23.2011 9:52 AM PDT

That would hardly be honourable. He just just fought alongside them both, and the two of them were vital in stopping Tartarus.

I can't imagine him killing them after that. As an aside; the Prophets' claims the sacred rings would propel them to divinity have proven false; why not their claims that humans are heretics too?

It makes perfect sense to "indulge in their presence."

  • 09.23.2011 10:07 AM PDT

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Posted by: Eldor Thug 37
It has been indicated that many Elites believed humans should be incorporated into the Covenant and were puzzled by the prophets downright refusal. I mean the Lekgolo literally were eating forerunner relics and they still indoctrinated them into the Covenant...

  • 09.23.2011 11:28 AM PDT

"We knew the world would not be the same.
A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.
I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita.
Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds...'
I suppose we all thought that one way or another."
- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Johnson hijacked and piloted a -blam!- Scarab to escort Thel. I don't know, I'd have some respect for the guy after that if I were Sangheili. And yes, Miranda is called a Reclaimer pretty much when Thel walks in.

I'm sure he considered killing him, but I'd say he might've been curious and held back. Obviously those two were important somehow. After learning more of the truth, he probably changed his mind completely.

Also after being dishonored, stripped of his rank, and assigned to Arbiter, I'm sure his mindset changed a bit. Human weapons are easily accessible through the campaign, and I would assume most players would pick up a human weapon as Arbiter at least a couple times. It makes sense to me that he wouldn't just blindly kill them after defeating Tartarus.

  • 09.24.2011 1:22 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
"Please use caution! This reclaimer is delicate."

Spark said that pretty much as Thel walked in.

But how does he know what a Reclaimer refers to? He has never heard it before now. This might be the first time he hears of the term, but he can't see what is going on and who is being spoken to etc.



2401 Penitent Tangent during his encounter with Gravemind.

  • 09.26.2011 10:33 PM PDT

I just read this entire thread, a nowhere do i see anyone mentioning that the humans were merely trying to survive potential, unprovoked extinction, and survived for a whole of 27 god damn years! Does this not possibly change his mindset onthings at least a bit?!

  • 09.27.2011 1:28 AM PDT

*reminisces when the Bungie/Halo community wasn't made up of CoD kids*
*sighs*
*activates time-machine and sets the clock back to Nov. 9, 2004*
glory days here I come..
*vanishes*

The Gravemind made it quite clear to him that he should help the humans.

"Fate had us meet as foes, but this ring will make us brothers"

And some Elites respect Humans.

[Edited on 09.27.2011 10:52 AM PDT]

  • 09.27.2011 10:50 AM PDT

Fyvshawthunda! Rated R DMR

The Sangheili questioned at first why humanity was't given permission to indoctrinate into the covenant. It was mentioned in the GoO that the Elites partially respected humanities courage under fire. That coupled with the fact that the chief and the arbiter had bled together fighting for the gravemind sort of swayed him into humanities court. They also learned of humanities role in forerunner affairs, and that threw us into the "we <3 humans" category.

  • 09.27.2011 11:24 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Wolverfrog
That would hardly be honourable.

I remember making a thread ages ago about Sangheili and honor and you said that it is quite possibly different for them. You cannot have it both ways. But you were probably right the first time: Sangheili honor is a different set of moral values to what Humans consider honorable, and quite happily allows for the genocide and slavery of other races. Thel is therefore not necessarily obliged not to stab them in the back for morality's sake.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
I can't imagine him killing them after that. As an aside; the Prophets' claims the sacred rings would propel them to divinity have proven false; why not their claims that humans are heretics too?

All that has ever been said is A) He knows Humans are Reclaimers, B) The fact that "most" Elites "respect" Humans somehow means that Thel automatically does so, C) The Truth of the Rings is revealed along with the Forerunner's mortality thus absolving Humanity of heresy.

The thing with A is that, even assuming he picks up on the term Reclaimer in the grand total of 2 times that it is ever mentioned to him before he kills Tartarus, is that it has completely no context to it at all. How does he know that it is significant at first and not just a part of the technical ramblings of the Monitors? From this assumed significance, how does he know that it in fact refers to a Human despite that never being made obvious? In the scene with the Gravemind, he is far more likely to believe that Penitent Tangent is referring to him at this point rather than to John, the "Demon".

B is not true either. Just because most Elites "respect" Humans, whatever the hell that actually means, does not mean that Thel does. Nor is it going to save the Humans at that time because it has not saved them at any other time. They are still "infidels" and nothing has really changed that. I could throw B away right now, but there is more. Most Elites do not respect Humans, and the very, very, very few Elites that do appear to show respect, what do you think they are actually thinking: "These Humans are quite clearly our equals and deserve to be treated as such. We could achieve so much more through working together rather than fighting." or "These Humans could be the best slaves we have ever had. They are far more brave than the Unggoy and more imaginative and determined." For a race who's history is marked by the mass murder of other races and the slavery of such races, along with viewing everybody else as inferior in every respect, it is obviously the second option. Regardless, Thel showed no such feelings towards Humanity at all, even months before Halo 2.

C is the best one, but there is no connection between the truth of the Great Journey and Humanity being heretics. Humanity were condemned for destroying Forerunner artifacts. This claim was absolutely verified when Master Chief decided to destroy Alpha Halo. So Truth may have lied about the Great Journey, but he did not lie about that. The Covenant do not believe that Forerunners are literally Gods sitting in the sky answering prayers, but a level of being that must be attained. As such their technology is viewed as something to be respected, something that has an innate dignity and Humanity was responsible for the destruction of Alpha Halo, cementing Truth's claim that Humanity was destroying the Forerunner's legacy, and they have not been absolved of that. And they probably never will really due to the Sangheili's beliefs, but that is another story. It is basically like saying "The Great Journey is false therefore Humanity did not destroy Forerunner technology...except that they did...oh wait...".

It is slightly worse from the games standpoint alone, because as far as I am aware we are never told exactly why the Covenant want to exterminate Humanity. All of a sudden, because some religious promise is broken, they stop fighting.

Thel and the Elites by extension probably only joined Humanity in the story because it sounded cool at the time to the writers. There is no proper reason, no way that Thel could form the necessary conclusions on his own, and realistically they would still be at each others throats. I seriously doubt that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" is as simple when religious beliefs get involved and when that potential friend is also your quarter-century long mortal enemy. This seriously underestimates the mind of the religious fanatic.

[Edited on 09.27.2011 1:49 PM PDT]

  • 09.27.2011 1:40 PM PDT

­

Page 274 of The Cole Protocol:
...I know, and I would never doubt the word of the Prophets, but we've long fought the humans for years and they show some capacity for honor. Look, they left behind one of their own, who was bleeding and dis-honored, to spring a trap and die with honor. Don't you think that indicates something profoundly noble about them?

This excerpt shows that shows that Elites, or at the least a smallest minority, do think of Humans with a small respect.

  • 09.27.2011 2:30 PM PDT

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

If you're interested in Halo's music, check this out.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Speaking of chuckles, let's all lol at IonicPaul, who makes friends with bugs to make up for his lack of human contact.

By vehemently, I mean that you are carrying on a discussion in which nearly everyone disagrees with you, and you will not hear their logic. You're just determined to say that Bungie is stupid and the Arbiter is a bloodthirsty, vengeful character, who wants to kill the nearest thing to him. Despite the fact that the opposite has been shown, you are dedicated to the idea that he should have killed Miranda and Johnson.

That's what I mean by "vehement." I don't imagine you furiously typing this out on your keyboard, but I imagine you wasting way too much time on a minor detail of a plot of game.

  • 09.27.2011 2:50 PM PDT

Anton, I must comment about Thel thinking the monitor was referring to him instead of John...

That can't be true because the monitor was directly staring at John, and pointedly referred to him as a reclaimer and that it was wonderful since they could fire the ring.

And even then, he directly states they must activate halo to control the outbreak of the flood.

  • 09.27.2011 2:55 PM PDT

Groups -MP | The TD
Files and Work - H3
______________________________
Posted by: Hayabusawarrior
Stop trollin mi forums

______________________________
My new GT is: Con38Dom ... yeah. >.>

Simple:

The Brutes and the rest of the remaining Covenant tried to kill him on The Uprising and The Great Journey. Humans didn't. He trusted the Humans more. Where would he go if he killed them?

  • 09.27.2011 3:06 PM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.

The Prophets and the Brutes betrayed him and his race. He realizes that everything he has been told about "The Great Journey" is a lie, which includes the extermination of humanity being a lie.

He realizes he was betrayed, therefore he joins the enemy of his enemy.

[Edited on 09.27.2011 5:45 PM PDT]

  • 09.27.2011 5:42 PM PDT

Shameless plug for my blog:

Check it!


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Poy Poy
So, you want to kill the only species capable of stopping the prophets plan to activate the Halo array?

He doesn't know that just yet. He doesn't know anything about the Humans, other than what he has been told all his life.


And then we come to the point that I was fully anticipating.

"The Sangheili respect Humans"

That is nothing more than fan made wishful thinking. There is no more evidence in support of that than there is for the myth that the UNSC won most ground battles against the Covenant.

I see no reason why Thel should not have opened fire. With the way that the Sangheili actually view Humanity, for them at that point to accept the help of Humanity or to ask for it would be like Spartan-IIs seriously considering the aid of Grunts in a battle.


In 'Conversations from the Universe', the booklet that came with the Halo 2 Colletor's edition there is a conversation between two elites who question why the Humans were never admitted to the Covenant, that's where this 'myth' comes from.

Here it is:

>>> EXTRACT OF SANCTIONED SANGHEILI EAVESDROP// FOR THE ATTENTION OF JIRALHANAE MILITARY ADJUNCT AMBASSADOR >>>

The Humans are weak, but they are tenacious. Even the smallest ones hurl themselves against our defenses with honor. If only the Unggoy were as committed.

>>> I wonder about the Humans, Commander. Their technology is limited, but some of it is useful and their battle techniques are impressive. They are excellent strategists. But what I ask is this: Why have we not offered them the absolution of the Covenant? From the beginning of this war, the Prophets have made no attempt to absorb them or even offer the option of honorable submission. Why?

Perhaps they fear them? We do not know where their homeworld is. Their pattern of retreat is either hopelessly random, or brilliantly conceived. What if the Humans have more power, more numbers than we suspect? What if they lead us to a trap?

>>> No. I do not think that is the reasoning. They continue to lose territory, and pattern or no pattern, these defenses must be part of a perimeter. I suspect we are forcing them into a tighter arena than they care to fight in. Soon we may be able to use the Sharquoi. And their victories, however few, always rely on the same thing-strategy, brute force, or luck. No. The only secret they hold is the location of their homeworld.

What about the atrocity at Halo? That was not luck, nor brute force. The Demon is a mystery. He outwitted and outfought entire legions on Halo. Perhaps there are more like him?

>>> I do not believe that. We have seen their kind before and destroyed them. Their numbers have dwindled and there have been no reported sightings since our victory at Reach.

Then why do we continue to hunt them? When surely they merit consideration to accept and embrace the Covenant?

>>> Let us discuss this at a more prudent moment. A Jiralhanae approaches.


[Edited on 09.27.2011 8:41 PM PDT]

  • 09.27.2011 8:35 PM PDT
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Let's recap the events here.

Thel was told by the Gravemind and 2401 that the rings are not what he thinks they are. Then, Thel is sent on a quest to stop the ring from firing, saving fellow Elites along the way. After fighting to the scarab, he meets Johnson and then teams up with him. Johnson takes over the scarab while Thel flys a Banshee to the control room. Johnson proceeds to blast his way into the control room using the scarab beam to allow Thel to get inside. Thel fights through Brutes in order to get to Tartarus. Once he gets there, he fights with the aid of Elites AND Johnson laying down particle beam fire. Upon killing Tartarus and stopping the rings, he learns that the Great Journey is a lie.

My question is, after learning your entire faith is a lie, why are you suddenly going to go into killing mode and kill 2 people who are not showing any apparent hostilities toward you and are actually acting in a friendly matter? Johnson had just blown through the Control Room doors and layed down particle beam fire for the purpose of helping you, an you are telling me if you were Thel, you would have immedietly turned around and killed him, especially after hearing all you major beliefs are a lie and maybe your "enemies" are actually correct?

  • 09.29.2011 7:53 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: superiorarsenal
My question is, after learning your entire faith is a lie, why are you suddenly going to go into killing mode and kill 2 people who are not showing any apparent hostilities toward you and are actually acting in a friendly matter?

This is what Thel has to conclude in a short space of time:

That the Great Journey is a lie. No problem here as he is explicitly told this by the Gravemind and 343 Guilty Spark.

That the Forerunners did not achieve divinity and instead died. Again no problems because he hears this straight from 343GS.

Now, however, he must make the conclusion that Forerunner technology is no longer to be respected or that the initial claim of Truth was a lie despite that initial claim, whilst at first being a lie, being proven true in 2552 when MC destroyed Alpha Halo. How and why does he do that?

There should have been a scene where the truth of the war comes out, and where Thel is told explicitly about its beginnings, a scene where we can see him reason that destroying Forerunner technology is not a "sin" punishable by death (Because that is what the whole war is based upon: That Humanity were attempting to destroy Forerunner technology. The Elites believe that it should be deeply respected, so this would tick them off more than anyone. That is the belief that has to be destroyed, not the Great Journey. The Great Journey is practically irrelevant to the claims against Humanity), and where Humanity's inheritance is made clear.

And Thel had no previous respect for Humanity. He did not even view them as people. Them being friendly and helping him really does nothing. Is he going to re-evaluate his whole cultural viewpoint as well now to facilitate Humans as equals too? So now in addition to the above assumptions we are also to accept that he somehow jumps into full blown alliances and start treating them as equals when quite frankly the character portrayed in the novels was a psychopathic religious nutjob who held no such views - who held strongly misanthropist views which did not change even up to Halo 2.

And he is supposed to conclude all that on minimum evidence when he is most likely not trying to disprove his own faith. That means that rather than objectively trying to verify which parts are true he would be trying to preserve aspects. Without a direct statement about the truth of Humanity he is highly unlikely to come to this conclusion, especially when it is so unlikely a truth in his world, when the fate of his own race is ultimately of higher importance to him over the fate of Humanity and that stopping Delta Halo and killing Tartarus is his immediate goal. It would be the least likely thing on his mind. Do you honestly think that he is thinking about theology when Tartarus is trying to kill him?

And for the "n"th time now, Elites seem to have no qualms about betraying people, no matter if they had fought alongside them and particularly when they are Human. I refer you to Thon in the Bloodline comic.

Posted by: superiorarsenal
Johnson had just blown through the Control Room doors and layed down particle beam fire for the purpose of helping you, an you are telling me if you were Thel, you would have immedietly turned around and killed him, especially after hearing all you major beliefs are a lie and maybe your "enemies" are actually correct?

"If I was Thel?" Why are asking that? We are discussing what Thel would do, not what I would do. Realistically, there was not enough evidence for such a strongly religious viewpoint to be overturned. If only things were really that easy in real life, religion would be completely gone. But it is not. The followers of Sebbatai Zevi who lived in the 16th century, despite their false Prophet outwardly proclaiming that he was just that under threat of death from the Ottomans, still believed in him and still linger on as a small cult to this day. They are called the Donme now or something. If all it took to get rid of these "psychic" and "astrologers" was to stand up in front of their audiences and reveal how it was all a trick and expose exactly what was going on, then would not everyone demand their money back? Apparently not, because apparently people are more inclined to boo the person making the truth revealing revelation because they do not want their beliefs ruined. Why is Thel different? There is no reason given as to why he is so particularly special. I do not see how 27 years of brutal indoctrination and bloodletting against Humanity would be overturned by such a weak revelation. Just a month prior to this he was murdering Humans indiscriminately at Reach. Thel's character is bit overrated, because he had almost no development, just a rigid and blatantly artificial progression from "A" to "B" with no steps inbetween.

Posted by: IonicPaul
and you will not hear their logic.

Elaborate on this "logic" that I am missing. All I see in this thread is extreme naivety towards how apparently easy it is for religious people to be shown that their beliefs are false.

Posted by: IonicPaul
but I imagine you wasting way too much time on a minor detail of a plot of game.

Well when someone says that Thel is one of the series' deeper characters, the only way to find out is to...you know...dig deep by looking at details? Well I looked, and he ain't deep in the slightest. He is unrealistic. And this is not a ridicule of Bungie's writing skills necessarily, it is a video game. Rather, it is just for the people who overblow this character into some bull-blam!- messiah or whathaveyou.

[Edited on 09.30.2011 9:43 AM PDT]

  • 09.30.2011 9:37 AM PDT

"We knew the world would not be the same.
A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.
I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita.
Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds...'
I suppose we all thought that one way or another."
- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Sangheili did respect humans from time to time.
It would of been a stupid idea to kill them right then and there.
Everything in the Covenant was changing, the Sangheili were betrayed.
Also, it was pretty obvious that the monitor wasn't talking to him.

Stop questioning it.

[Edited on 09.30.2011 9:50 AM PDT]

  • 09.30.2011 9:48 AM PDT
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The arbiter willingly let Johnson work with him. Johnson played a key role in helping Thel. So why would he kill johnson immediatly afterwards? ESPECIALLY if both Miranda and Johnson are acting in a friendly temperment towards Thel.

  • 10.04.2011 7:56 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Poy Poy
So, you want to kill the only species capable of stopping the prophets plan to activate the Halo array?

He doesn't know that just yet. He doesn't know anything about the Humans, other than what he has been told all his life.


And then we come to the point that I was fully anticipating.

"The Sangheili respect Humans"

That is nothing more than fan made wishful thinking. There is no more evidence in support of that than there is for the myth that the UNSC won most ground battles against the Covenant.

I see no reason why Thel should not have opened fire. With the way that the Sangheili actually view Humanity, for them at that point to accept the help of Humanity or to ask for it would be like Spartan-IIs seriously considering the aid of Grunts in a battle.


And how do you know that Thel didn't know anything about that yet? I'm pretty sure that by that point in the game he'd have been able to glean something regarding Humanity and their place in regards to the Forerunners. He's not blind and there were little hints and the like from conversation with the Monitors he encountered, plus he pretty much walked in on Tartarus having to use Miranda to activate Delta Halo.

Now, as to the other part of this post, I have this to say, bollocks, that is nothing but utter bollocks. It has been made more than abundantly clear that there are a very large number of Elites that have a great deal of respect for humanity. In fact, there's more evidence to support that than is for your claim that every single one of the Elites hates Humanity's collective guts and wants nothing more than to completely exterminate them and ravage every planet they live on.

Have you even read Cole Protocol? He first begins to gain respect for humanity in that book, and it comes to full fruition in Halo 2. And WHY would he just gun Miranda and Johnson down? Thel is not a Ripa Moramee, unlike the latter he's an honorable warrior. And remember, he's just learned that pretty much everything the Prophets have ever said to him and he's learned while in the Covenant is a flat out lie or just plain wrong. Why would he heartlessly gun down those who the Covenant consider heretics when he is no longer a part of the Covenant or their zealotry? And even if he still doesn't really like humans, why should he turn on them? They just helped him out, and as I said, he is no longer a member of the Covenant, he has no obligation to religiously hunt humans down and slaughter them.

  • 10.16.2011 9:56 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
Now, as to the other part of this post, I have this to say, bollocks, that is nothing but utter bollocks. It has been made more than abundantly clear that there are a very large number of Elites that have a great deal of respect for humanity. In fact, there's more evidence to support that than is for your claim that every single one of the Elites hates Humanity's collective guts and wants nothing more than to completely exterminate them and ravage every planet they live on.

Mmhmm

Most people in this thread told me as much (Which I already knew for years anyway). Now most people throw it all away for Glasslands. Crazy. This thread has served its purpose anyway. It is no longer needed.

  • 10.16.2011 10:53 AM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

The Arbiter knew that everything the Prophets, who had just betrayed his race, had told them was now a possible lie. Especially after the entire Halo: CE episode which caused even greater hatred of Humanity, was now justified by what The Arbiter learned from Sparky.

  • 10.16.2011 11:56 AM PDT

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