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This topic has moved here: Subject: Slight hint at the Gravemind/TO from Greg Bear...
  • Subject: Slight hint at the Gravemind/TO from Greg Bear...
Subject: Slight hint at the Gravemind/TO from Greg Bear...

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

I went to his blog and posted up my analysis of the relation between Gravemind and Timeless One, and he replied.

From: Greg Bear
Date: 09/25/2011

Terrific analysis and synopsis, Chronarch! Have you inside information? Are you in fact... a Gravemind?

Best wishes!

Greg


Obviously he's not giving anything away, but he's certainly not denying it.

  • 09.26.2011 1:11 PM PDT

Why are you telling Greg Bear about his own story? I'm sure he already knows it, or we're in trouble. Pretty cool that he replied, I myself hope it isn't the Gravemind though.

Also, Chronarch.

lol

[Edited on 09.26.2011 1:13 PM PDT]

  • 09.26.2011 1:12 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Wolverfrog
Why are you telling Greg Bear about his own story? I'm sure he already knows it, or we're in trouble.


Haha, I was thinking that when I was typing it out. :P

Pretty cool that he replied

Yeah, that's twice now.

I myself hope it isn't the Gravemind though.

cuz u dumd

Also, Chronarch.

lol


no u

  • 09.26.2011 1:14 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

I'm hoping it isn't the gravemind as well...

  • 09.26.2011 2:05 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

I'm not sure how I feel about GM = TO. I feel as if the Gravemind has become too familiar, and Halo 3 did not exactly do his character a lot of justice. If TO is GM then so be it, but I feel it would slightly diminish the sinister character of the TO.

  • 09.26.2011 2:19 PM PDT

The Grave Mind should of been a boss kinda like Guilty Spark.

  • 09.26.2011 2:28 PM PDT

I like how he can get us thinking without saying yes or no. And to anyone who hopes he's not the Mind, may I ask why?

  • 09.26.2011 2:59 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
I like how he can get us thinking without saying yes or no. And to anyone who hopes he's not the Mind, may I ask why?


They feel like completely different characters to me.

  • 09.26.2011 3:21 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
I like how he can get us thinking without saying yes or no. And to anyone who hopes he's not the Mind, may I ask why?


They feel like completely different characters to me.


This. And also, the Gravemind is a pretty underwhelming antagonist who we've already beaten.

It'd be like fighting a clone of the Prophet of Truth.

  • 09.26.2011 3:24 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: anton1792
I'm not sure how I feel about GM = TO. I feel as if the Gravemind has become too familiar, and Halo 3 did not exactly do his character a lot of justice. If TO is GM then so be it, but I feel it would slightly diminish the sinister character of the TO.


Considering the GM may just be a mouthpiece for the TO, and we saw how powerful the GM is, I think the TO has much more sinister methods we have yet to see.

  • 09.26.2011 3:34 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: anton1792
I'm not sure how I feel about GM = TO. I feel as if the Gravemind has become too familiar, and Halo 3 did not exactly do his character a lot of justice. If TO is GM then so be it, but I feel it would slightly diminish the sinister character of the TO.


Considering the GM may just be a mouthpiece for the TO, and we saw how powerful the GM is, I think the TO has much more sinister methods we have yet to see.


Halo 4/5/6 better have a boss fight against him, if this turns out to be true.

  • 09.26.2011 3:38 PM PDT

@Caboose.

I think its a bit early to say that. The Primordial has had about 5 sentences of dialogue in a climactic scene (so how he really talks in regular conversation is a mystery for the sake of dramatic climax). While we have truck loads of evidence supporting the theory he is in fact the Gravemind in one way or another.

Plus, both are extremely powerful, both are effectively immortal, both are ancient, both are antagonists, both use the Flood as a weapon, both are (obviously) extremely intelligent, both have been Medicant Bias' master, both are extremely manipulative and, most importantly, fill similar roles. I wouldn't like it if the Primordial were a different character for the exact reason Wolverfrog said: it'd be like if Truth cloned himself but gave himself a different-yet-similar name (Right? Correct? Logically Consistant?) While we're told they're supposed to be totally different.

Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: privet caboose

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
I like how he can get us thinking without saying yes or no. And to anyone who hopes he's not the Mind, may I ask why?


They feel like completely different characters to me.


This. And also, the Gravemind is a pretty underwhelming antagonist who we've already beaten.

It'd be like fighting a clone of the Prophet of Truth.


I have covered the Gravemind thing, about him being underwhelming, in a theory of my own. Firstly, its a matter of the games simply not showing the Flood and GM's true potential in even the remotest sense of the word (this is something I hope they rectify in the Reclaimer Trilogy. Human Weakness showed just how mentally quick and cunning he is; I personally find extremely intelligent villains to be better villains then big-ass strong guys who could out fight, but not out think, you. Having them both at the same time is just a plus). Plus, I also believe the idea the Gravemind, as ajw has said, is an alias and a mouth piece for the Primordial.

However powerful the Precursor is, he's still only one being with (as far as we know) absolutely no Precursor technology to help him. If the entire universe were to unite against him, I have a feeling he'd lose. So, he uses the Flood as a puppet army, under the guise of the Gravemind (who he presents to the galaxy via conscious projection; as a transsentient, the ability to do something like this is more understandable). But the alias "Gravemind" is a shadow of the Primordial's true potential. Making him the (hopefully) ultimate end boss battle in Halo 6.

I feel this best explains the large amount of evidence for the GM=TO theory while still allowing for what is effectively a "new" villain with new abilities, yet without having to explain away the entire first Halo Trilogy as being pointless (what use was fighting and killing Gravemind if he as a villain is entirely unrelated to the new trilogy? By that same token, what use were all the mysteries brought up in IRIS and other media surrounding the Flood, its origins, and the legacy of Medicant Bias and the Forerunners if they were going to be pretty much ignored because a brand new villain was slapped onto the Reclaimer Trilogy?)

I just feel creating an entirely new struggle that dwarfs and is unrelated to the original trilogy (since as we know Threat-to-Universe>Threat-to-Galaxy) is poor story telling.

  • 09.26.2011 6:03 PM PDT
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OP, in your letter to Greg, you mention that the Flood broke out 200 years prior to the events of Installation 05. Where did this info come from?

  • 09.27.2011 1:03 AM PDT

Loved your analysis. The idea that what we saw wasn't the gravemind so much as "The mouth of gravemind" much like the mouth of sauron, is about as awesome an explanation as I could have hoped for. Parallels to LOTR are great.

It is also really amazing to see just how much of what is now being put into words and games, was already known by bungie to some degree when they made halo 3. Specifically calling spartan-IIs reclaimers in the bestiarium? Calling gravemind a different species? Wow. I don't see how ANYONE could consider Halo 4-6 "milking the franchise" when you know this. There is just that much depth.

I'm just spouting random semi-related stuff so---

Apparently, the spartan-IIs specifically are reclaimers (it was hinted at by Mr. Bear that it is because they have genetic ties to a certain someone in his stories). This does not explain why Miranda is called a reclaimer as well.

Or does it?

Given that a reclaimer is a genetic descendant of someone, and as such is very genetically superior, there's a good chance Dr. Halsey herself is a reclaimer, and thus Miranda is as well.

Hopefully this means kelly linda and fred are featured in the next 3 games, as they are, hopefully, reclaimers. The reclaimer trilogy should have more than one...

on another note

IMO there are a lot of things bungie could have done while keeping pretty much the same plot of halo 3, to make the flood seem some much more dangerous and cunning than they are.

For example, I imagine the flood would have been continuously infesting elite ships at delta halo. And given that the gravemind is pretty much the floods god, they would all sacrifice themselves to defend it. As such when high charity went to earth/the portal, a whole bunch of flood ships should have crash landed all over earth. Specifically, major population centers. This would have given another storyline to explore. Basically, Lord Hood has to make the decision to nuke a handful of major cities and sacrifice a massive amount of the population to stop the flood. It would also demonstrate the floods intelligence as they specifically target the largest population centers.

I also didn't like how on the last couple levels, everyone pretty much abandoned arby and the chief despite the fate of the entire galaxy riding on what was about to happen. They missed a chance for a giant battle to end all battles of elites and humans on the ground, fighting up the summit to the control room (the control room holds a very strong parallel to mount doom in LOTR, with the index being the ring), while elite and flood ships having a massive battle right above. Having elites selflessly sacrifice them so that John could safely make it to the control room, as he's the only one who can activate the ring. Imagine fighting up to the summit with an army of elites vs hordes of flood, while a massive space battle takes place right above.

"The flood will sacrifice all to defend their master."

That would be a proper climax.

The limitation of the game, I suppose.


[Edited on 09.27.2011 5:37 AM PDT]

  • 09.27.2011 5:16 AM PDT

nvm, delete.

[Edited on 09.27.2011 9:41 AM PDT]

  • 09.27.2011 9:40 AM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

Haha, Greg Bear is a funny guy. Anyway, I would really be surprised if it wasn't the Gravemind.

  • 09.27.2011 11:57 AM PDT

I hope and don't think the Gravemind is The Timeless One. The physical desciption of TO didn't match the GM shown in Halo 2. Maybe TO is puppeteering the GM, that's kind of what I think.

  • 09.27.2011 12:36 PM PDT

@Wazooty

Not to nit-pick, but ajw, myself, hotshot reven II and numerous others have been collaborating extensively on the Gravemind=TO idea. ajw is a very big contributor to the workings of the theory you read, but I just wanted to point out he's not the exclusive creator or analyzer of the theory or concepts. I, for example, came up with the mouth piece idea.

But to be sure, everyone who has contributed to this theory deserves just as much recognition as all the others should it turn out to be true.

*raises glass* To the Timeless One, and the brutal ass-kicking we'll be giving him in Halo 6!

  • 09.27.2011 12:53 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

What if we fight him in Halo 5? What a twist!

In all seriousness, it seems that Bear pretty much said that TO is the Mind.

  • 09.27.2011 1:02 PM PDT

On average, a person produces about half a liter of fart gas per day, distributed over an average of about fourteen daily farts!!!!

i wouldn't mind if it were the GM, its an epic character

  • 09.27.2011 1:13 PM PDT

My take on Gravemind -

Halo CE: Cool Gravemind gestation with Keyes

Halo 2: the stupiest looking Little Shop of Horrors man eating plant thing, I hated Gravemind in Halo 2. It made the game really trashy in terms of suspended disbelief.

Halo 3: The Cortana vas. Gravemind dialogue was great and the tentacles of Gravemind and overall Flood control was solid.

Next Halo trilogy: I'd rather not fight the flood again, maybe one level...two at most. Give us forerunner and precursors with overwhelming enemies and hit and move tactics. Fit you new enemies into that.

  • 09.27.2011 7:20 PM PDT
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Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."


Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: privet caboose

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
I like how he can get us thinking without saying yes or no. And to anyone who hopes he's not the Mind, may I ask why?


They feel like completely different characters to me.


This. And also, the Gravemind is a pretty underwhelming antagonist who we've already beaten.

It'd be like fighting a clone of the Prophet of Truth.


I second your opinion, it would be sort of a letdown, to find out that TO is the GM. Although i don't deny that they have a connection, as long as we don't see the gravemind again. As we have already defeated him specifically by the end of H3, and he wasn't that interesting.

Perhaps, there are other graveminds (its possible if you read about the flood's intergalactic stage) throughout the universe, and that they are all the TO's mouthpieces.

On a side note, it's funny that the most intelligent and senior users on bungie universe always come out and post when there is some sort of news on primordium or the characters in it, or anything related to Greg Bear (even the "slightest hint"). It seems greg bear has really made the universe that much more interesting.

Just something I have noticed.

  • 09.28.2011 4:48 AM PDT